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Author Topic: Moulder for hardwood flooring  (Read 13489 times)

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Offline True North

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Moulder for hardwood flooring
« on: December 18, 2009, 11:22:27 AM »
Can anyone recommend an economical choice of moulder to get started producing hardwood t & g flooring (maple, oak, ash, etc.)? It seems like a lot of guys who have moulders don't like to run hardwoods through them.

Offline jdtuttle

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 11:54:39 AM »
I have a Logosol PH260 I use for flooring & other moldings. I use a woodmaster 718 to skip plane and cut the blanks before running through the logosol.
jim
Have a great day

Offline True North

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2009, 12:06:06 PM »
How does the logosol work on the harder woods?

Offline Dodgy Loner

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2009, 01:59:16 PM »
I know folks who don't like to run extremely hard woods, like hickory, through their molders (mostly to prolong the cutter's sharpness), but any decent molder should be able to handle your typical hardwoods, like oak, maple, and ash.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

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Offline solidwoods

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2009, 05:32:41 PM »
Weinig
IRSauctions . com is a good place to shop.
Typically less than 5k. for a U17 model which is the 7" wide very common model.
If you have any specific moulder to business questions feel free to PM me and I'll call you.
Someone on FF wrote that having a moulder is like having a cash cow.  They hit the nail on the head.  Especially if you have a kiln and a pile of #3 lumber.
Weinig is the best brand of moulder.
Don't be afraid of 3ph power or the size of the moulder.  Moulders do the same thing and one with some metal around it can eat the sheet metal moulders for lunch.
jim
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2009, 07:51:38 PM »
that's one mans opinion,  i had a weing moulder p22n 5 head worked good parts were dam expensive. started shopping for a new moulder called weinig for pricing on the profamt 26, 5 head was qouted $49950.00 without tooling. talked to cantec about the leadermac moulder(tiawan made) oh by the way weinig is made in tiawan also, anyway leadermac spect out a 5 head 9" wide with 9" tooling all the way around for$24590.00. i called weinig to see if they would include tooling (no) i told them i was looking at a leadermac just like that the price drops to $43000.00. i bought the leadermac this past spring the service techs that came and set the moulder up guess what ya they use to be weinig techs. i have ran about 300,000 sq.ft thru the moulder evrything is perfect.
 my morale to this story is this.. weinig once was the best moulder bar none, but as of late they have been resting on their loreals.
 far as getting  a entry level  used moulder  i would say a weinig the older used ones  are still worth there money.
 bit of advice don't buy one unless you can see it run and have someone that knows moulders go with you.
 this whole rambling is just one mans opinion!!!
the experts think i do things wrong
 over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Offline jdtuttle

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2009, 08:12:44 AM »
Quote
How does the logosol work on the harder woods?
Like any tool as long as you keep sharp knives in it does great. 7000 rpm. I was like you a year ago & was asking questions about molders. Someone contacted me & offered me a deal I couldn't refuse so I bought a used Logosol. Take your time & do the research & you will find the right solution for your business.
Good Luck, jim
Have a great day

Offline crtreedude

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2009, 11:23:12 AM »
Here in Costa Rica they have a molder that is made by the local machinist that does well against softer woods, but not so well against teak, etc. The problem was the upper and lower planning heads, not the side knives. We replaced them with helix and now we have a machine that does an excellent job on teak, which is very abrasive. Works great on almost any kind of wood now.

Just an idea if you like to tinker.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Offline scsmith42

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2009, 05:31:34 PM »
TN -  how much do you have budgeted?  There is no question that Weinig makes a top of the line Moulder.

If you want to buy new, both the Logosol and the Baker 4 head machines are around 13K, give or take.  Basically the same machine, except that the Baker has more HP on all of the motors.

Woodmizer also makes some good moulders.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Offline boman1

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2009, 11:04:54 PM »
I just received information on the Woodmaster planer moulders. They look good and the material looks good  and they are built in the USA!,but I have not actually used one. I am going to contact Woomaster for owners in my area to visit with before I purchase.The price on it is very reasonable.Good luck.

Offline ljmathias

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2009, 07:21:32 AM »
boman: I've looked at the Woodmaster, too, and you have to be aware of two things: most everything is "extra" (you want wheels with that new GM truck?  Those are extra!).  And second, they use two routers to do the side molding needed for T&G flooring, exactly what I wanted to do also.  Feedback I've heard is that they do pretty well as planers, especially with the helix heads, but the other options require careful alignment and a fair amount of time to setup and operate.  They are NOT really designed and built as molders or shapers but as modified planers.  Make sure you have everything added in before you buy- don't want to be surprised later to find that the two routers for T&G cost a couple thousand to add on...

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Offline boman1

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2009, 01:41:38 PM »
boman: I've looked at the Woodmaster, too, and you have to be aware of two things: most everything is "extra" (you want wheels with that new GM truck?  Those are extra!).  And second, they use two routers to do the side molding needed for T&G flooring, exactly what I wanted to do also.  Feedback I've heard is that they do pretty well as planers, especially with the helix heads, but the other options require careful alignment and a fair amount of time to setup and operate.  They are NOT really designed and built as molders or shapers but as modified planers.  Make sure you have everything added in before you buy- don't want to be surprised later to find that the two routers for T&G cost a couple thousand to add on...

Lj

I have the price quote sheet and you are right.... you have to purchase the add on items. Thats why I want to talk to an actual owner and see how they feel about their Woodmaster and setup before I shell out hard earned cash..lol.Thanks
Bo

Offline Bodger

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 02:14:18 PM »
Had a logosol and sold it.  It was too light for making hardwood flooring on a regular basis.  I still think the biggest part of the problem is the quality of the steel used in the knives..they dull very quickly.  You'll have to cut out any large knots in oak before running.  When the knives  dull the wood stalls and will not run through the planer.  Tried to run a load of maple 1x4 into flooring and it ate about a 16th of the top cutter away.  It did ok on pine paneling and flooring but pretty much everything has to be preplaned or you'll run into problems.  If you're planning on doing this as a business it might be wise to look at something heaver and more industrial.  TMS monthly publication has quite a few in the same price range...used, but many come with extra heads.  If you do go with the logosol shop around on the blower and don't just buy the one they offer, you'll save money.  Overall I was not very satisfied with the machine nor the tech support.  It's been several years since I sold the machine and they still have me as a reference customer on their web site. 
Work's fine for killing time but it's a shaky way to make a living.

Offline True North

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2009, 02:41:41 PM »
As far as a budget, I am not there yet. I have a portable mill right now, and would like to first build a kiln and then start looking at moulders. There are a couple of mills that I can get wood dried for about $0.20 per bf and planed/moulded for $0.20-0.30 per bf. At those prices, would it be worth doing or just paying for? I like the idea of doing it myself and being in control of the whole process, but it needs to make economical sense. What do you think?

Offline jcbrotz

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2009, 03:44:22 PM »
I just received information on the Woodmaster planer moulders. They look good and the material looks good  and they are built in the USA!,but I have not actually used one. I am going to contact Woomaster for owners in my area to visit with before I purchase.The price on it is very reasonable.Good luck.

I have a woodmaster and have for 5 or so years looking to upgrade to ?? logosol, Baker not sure yet I have a hard time spending money. The woodmaster works nice but i time consuming I am looking to get a S4S machine to save time. Not sold on what one yet but will figuire it out before summer/late spring cuz thats when I plan to do something. I will be keeping my woodmaster due to all the moulding blades and the gang ripsaw.


As far as the kiln it yourself or let someone else ?? thats up to you but it runs about $200 a month to run a kiln with addition heat applied if what I am hearing is true.(nile dehumidification) at 2000 bdft a month or close to it depending on spicies of wood. I am going to be trying a solar as soon as I can build it, shooting to have it done by spring  time permiting wanted it done over the summer but that didn't happen.
2004 woodmizer lt40hd 33hp kubota, Cat 262B skidsteer and way to many tractors to list. www.Brotzmanswoodworks.com and www.Brotzmanscenturyfarm.com

Offline jdtuttle

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2009, 04:59:54 PM »
Quote
As far as a budget, I am not there yet. I have a portable mill right now, and would like to first build a kiln and then start looking at moulders. There are a couple of mills that I can get wood dried for about $0.20 per bf and planed/moulded for $0.20-0.30 per bf. At those prices, would it be worth doing or just paying for? I like the idea of doing it myself and being in control of the whole process, but it needs to make economical sense. What do you think?

I have a woodmizer lt40HD, Kubota tractor with forks, woodmaster 18" planer/molder/gang saw, logosol ph260 & complete woodshop. My next addition is a kiln, hopefully by next summer. If you're a one man shop like me these tools work great as long as you keep everything sharp. They are also more affordable. I make custom molding for several contractors & will expand in 2 years when I retire from my regular job. My advice is to keep your regular job & build up your tools as you can afford them. Whenever I buy a tool I make sure it will make enough income to pay for itself. I like the idea of being able to take a log, mill it, dry the lumber, and process the lumber into a finished product. As you said "being in control of the whole process", it's very rewarding. The thing about the logosol is to make sure the blanks you run through are within 3/16" of the finished product. I use the woodmaster to size everything before going through the logosol.
jim
Have a great day

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2009, 06:20:40 PM »
true north,
 if you can get your wood dried and milled into flooring for.50 b.f. and you are happy with the product go that route.the satisfaction of doing it yourself doesn't pay the bills.
 having a set cost is much easier to have a set price for selling your product. if your only planning on making small volume per month 500-2000 sq.ft.  you'll end up spending $10,000 for equipment  at that you can do ok. if you want to run alot more than that you can spend easily $80,000 for equipment.
 by starting out having someone else run your product is the way to go, if you don't sell anything for 1 month you still aren't making equipment payments, build your buisness as your buisness grows
the experts think i do things wrong
 over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Offline True North

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2009, 06:45:38 PM »
Great advice guys, thanks.

My idea for the kiln is to expand off of the end of my outdoor furnace shed. That way, I am using a heat source that is heating the house and hot water anyway. Has anyone else done it that way?

Offline Jim Spencer

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2009, 09:46:46 PM »
True North,
I have an outdoor furnace and have been thinking about running a line through my kiln which is an Ebac.  In Michigan in the winter it is too cold to use my dehumidifier kiln because of the heat needed to keep the coils from freezing is expensive.
I would like to know how your kiln comes out using your wood furnace to heat it.

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Moulder for hardwood flooring
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2009, 01:07:09 PM »
truenorth,
 i heat my 15,000b.f.kiln with my owb i have 2 -200,000 btu heat exchangers  in the chamber  which is feed from the stove, been doing it for 10 yrs. burn all the scap wood from the shop use round wood at night. changed the kiln yeasterday put in 10k fresh cut frozen pine, came to work this morning kiln was upto 98 deg. outside temp.- 12 deg. not to bad for only using hot water heat
the experts think i do things wrong
 over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree


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