So ya know

[Samuel]

Yep, there's always someone in Government that knows how to take care of you better than you do.  The fellow that instigated that probably got a paper cut on his finger from a picture of a chansaw and figured they must be dangerous.

What it is, is they have all this surplus tax money that they have to get rid of somehow and a friend of a friend who needs a job. So they created one for him. He's going to push the papers to keep track of those who didn't buy the chainsaw course.  He'll probably need an office full of co-workers, a secretary or two and 50 men in the field before the year is out. 

Tom, I am sure you are not suggesting that this is not a good idea.  It's hard to imagine anyone not being smart enough to put on PPE when conducting high hazard work, but believe me, some of these people still exist and need to be told.  If legislating it is the only way to make it happen, then that is fine by me.

I do agree with you that perhaps government take things to the extreme in some situations, but for example in BC, without having a SAFE Certified company, you would be hard pressed first of all to get work  through a mill, but secondly, may find it difficult for a mill to take your wood if you are not certified.

We can all complain about all this or accept it.  With over 50 forestry related deaths a year in BC alone, which is costing governments millions of dollars (http://www.fwsn.org/pdf/forest_deaths_cost_billions%206Dec05.pdf), something was needed.  If its happening there, I suspect its happening elsewhere.

[Ron Wenrich]

In the state of PA, you can get a permit to go out and cut marked trees on state land for personal use firewood.  Do they have that in NY, and how would that effect those weekenders who go out and cut wood?  Are they required to have the Level 1 training?

Not everyone who cuts trees are loggers. 

[stonebroke]

In the 70's NYS used to sell ten cord firewood sales. You paid ten dollars a cord for the wood and a dollar a cord for insurance. I don't think NYS does that anymore. I think the minimum sales are one hundred cords which pretty much eliminates the homeowner. Too much trouble not enough foresters to mark. The Comptrollers office said last year that if DEC spent one million on more foresters they would pick up twelve million in additoional revenue just on regular sales, they are so far behind. They will not do that makes too much sense.

Stonebroke

[hollywoodmfg]

From what i understand even firewood cutters must comply. And they will sometimes sell tree tops in 30 cord lots. thats in chautauqua county. but most all forest products are sold on bid.

[timberjack240]

to cut state timber in pa you have to have all you sfi core courses and keep them up to date .. you should  have to wear hardhats. chaps should be optional.i personally dont wear em. they wear me out and are hot and i get tangeld up all the time.  and i dont wear steel toes i cant stand steel toed boots . or those stupid safety gloves or whatever. those stupid things are  more dangerous to wear then not. that saw kicks and slips outta your hand  itll hit you in the face. if you dont have em on at least you can hang on to your saw that way. i dont kno bout you guys but id rather loose a finger or two than have a saw embedded in my brain cause i had my safety gloves on  :

[beenthere]

I had a friend who was a faller, and worked for a walnut log buyer. He was required to cut the walnut trees right at ground level, so no felling notch. He had the saw kick back in the cut when he was on one knee, and it wiped out the tendons just above the knee. That was in the day before chaps were known about. They couldn't just stitch those tendons back, as they had a 1/4 inch chunk out that made them too short. So he was done in the woods, at about 23 yrs old.
Mentally, he never did recover, and physically he had quite a limp.
I often wished chaps would have been around for him to use at that time.

'nuff said.

[Ron Scott]

The use of chaps are required by the cutters on my jobs. We don't cut without them. I've also seen some bad leg, foot, hand, and arm cuts over the years without the use of PPE.

[Magicman]

Sometimes even independent cutters need a few scars, stiches, and birthdays to realize the importance of safety gear..... ;D

[bill m]

Sometimes even independent cutters need a few scars, stiches, and birthdays to realize the importance of safety gear..... ;D

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[Mark K]

I think people are nuts not to where chaps, helmets and chainsaw boots. I used to always wear steel toe logging boots. Was limbing out a hemlock tree and slipped, saw hit steel toe, slid back and cut my boot clear to the sole and half-way across top. Called my father to get me out of the woods and to the hospital. Cut my big toe and the one next to it off. The third toe was hanging but were able to save it. I bought a brand new pair of Matterhorn chainsaw boots 6 weeks later when I returned to the woods. That was seven years ago still paying for it.

[Samuel]

That sounds like a very painful lesson.  But having read your post, you are certainly an advocate now.

[Mark K]

Ya it wasn't fun. Try to run or walk for that matter with your big toe missing. Took me a long time to adjust. I was wearing all my ppe that day. Just working a little to quick and tired, finishing up for the day. You can't believe how fast it can happen.

[bill m]

Yes, I wear all my ppe ,including boots, every time I use a saw and have been doing so since the mid 1980s.  Over the years I have heard every excuse on earth why people will not wear their ppe. I can understand people saying they don't want government telling them what to wear. Common sense should tell you.

[Samuel]

The problem these days is that the is nothing common about common sense. ???

[ErikC]

  Ever wonder why? Too many people getting their hands held from cradle to grave. There is no reason to think when there is a law about everything you do.   Is this a better society? Not if you ask me.

[timberjack240]

 i dont wear chaps or saw boots. i wear a hard hat earmuffs and either sun/saftey glasses or the screen. ive only nicked my boot one ..knock on wood.. b/c i was tired and wasnt payin attention. my pap made me wear em. i did till i cut a tree and a stick slid in behind the buckles and i couldnt get away from it. that day i put em inteh truck and havent worn em maybe 3 hrs total since. he said WHERE YOUR CHAPS!?!?!?!?! i turned around and w/o missin a beat said .. the same place yours are in the  !@#$ truck. told him what happend and said iw as done w them. i agree you should wear em but id rather take a chance of gettin cut than not gettin away froma tree. i dont plan on it till i have to i hate em w a passion at least hte ones i have. labonville are way to heavy i thought about tryin a pair of homeowner use 5 layers instead of 9 and gettin a style that fits tighter to your leg but i hate to spend 70$ to wear em for a cpl hrs. my pap cut timber for 48 years and every time he was cut it was anywhere but were the chaps were to be anyway. the time he fell and slid over the saw they wouldnt have helped cause they  woulda caught on the teeth and moved and still cut him

[Samuel]

I should leave this alone, but as a "safety geek" I would be as guilty as you were for not being protected in not saying something.  That argument you gave is like saying I would sooner fly through the windshield of my car than braking a collar bone from a seat belt.  It does not add up....  perhaps the reason why the tree is catching you, is in the method you are doing it.  Fallers on the coast of BC where there are real trees and 90% or greater slope to deal with, are wearing the chaps et al or they would be chased out of the bush, or worse dead.

Have a read at what you wrote, look at your girl friend, wife or mom (whatever the case may be) and let them know that they do not mean enough to them to wear your PPE.  I was told a story once from an old construction supervisor in the oil patch who was having the same difficulty in getting across to some guys the need for this safety equipment short of beating them with a big stick.  So one day he hauled one of the guys in the truck and headed for town.  The worker was very confused and assumed he was fired, but after about 10 minutes of silence, finally gathered up enough courage to ask where they were going.  The old guy looked him in the eye and said, I am taking you home to your wife and infant. I want you to tell  them exactly what you want me to tell them when you are dead."

That makes sense to me.  Don't wear you PPE for your boss, or for a government official, where it because there are people at home waiting to see your face at the end of every day.  I don't want someone else bringing up my kids because I was stupid.

Just think about it....

[bill m]

 A year or two ago a local logger was working on his own property on a weekend. No chaps. Chainsaw cut his femoral artery. Died on the spot. His wife and young daughter went looking for him when he did not show up for dinner.

[John Mc]

Well put, Samuel. Nice to have a few safety geeks around.

I had a similar story at work. One of the guys decided he didn't like the safety glasses he was supposed to be wearing while operating a die grinder to take the flash off of butt welds on steel wire (picture a nice stream of sparks flying of in various directions). He figured he was tough enough and good enough that "it wouldn't happen to him". After speaking to him on numerous occasions without any change, his supervisor paid a visit to the guys wife. He asked for a photo of the guy's 6 year old daughter. The wife asked why, and he explained the situation. She said "I've got just the thing". She came back with a photo of little girl on her first ride on a bicycle with a big smile on her face, and daddy running right behind, just letting go of the bicycle. Under the photo the wife had written "Watch me, Daddy!". The supervisor hung that photo at the guys workstation, right next to the unused pair of safety glasses. Problem solved.

Timberjack, you got a nice warning when you nicked your boot. You said it was "b/c i was tired and wasnt payin attention". That's exactly when most accidents happen. So are you never going to work when you are tired again? Never going to push to "just cut a couple more to finish up this load" before you knock off for the day?

Oh, one more bit of info: they guy in the story above had just come back to work after a month off when he got a flake of metal in his eye while grinding. The doctor said he was very lucky not to lose the use of the eye. His "warning" was a bit less subtle than yours, but he ignored it until someone finally made the point to him in a way that got through.

I don't mean to preach... maybe you are so much better at this than I am that you just don't need PPE. Lord knows there are a lot of folks on here MUCH better than I am at this. But that's a big pretty big "maybe" to hang your life and well-being on.

[Samuel]

very well put...

[woodtroll]

I might tell you to wear safety gear. I may look at you like you are an idiot if you don't. (once saw a hillbilly logger cutting bare foot).
But I will not pass a law telling you to.
I respect an individuals right to be stupid. If one is ignorant then I will try to educate.
We all want to be free, no heavy hand of the government telling us what to do, but with freedom comes responsibility.

[Jeff]

timberjack240, it sounds to me like after reading your reasoning, you are eventually headed for severe injury or maybe death. By your explanation it appears that ignoring one safety practice, that of clearing the area around your tree of hazards, and then planning your escape route was ignored resulting in your getting hung on that stick. So instead of having that experience turn the light on for you and letting you know that it is essential to follow that practice or else,  you instead chose to blame it on the chaps and increase the odds of injury even more.
What you are choosing to do is no different then having a stick flip your hard hat off, so you choose to grab it before exiting the base of the tree, so you blame it on the hardhat and decide you will just throw that in the truck.

[Jeff]

I might tell you to wear safety gear. I may look at you like you are an idiot if you don't. (once saw a hillbilly logger cutting bare foot).
But I will not pass a law telling you to.
I respect an individuals right to be stupid. If one is ignorant then I will try to educate.
We all want to be free, no heavy hand of the government telling us what to do, but with freedom comes responsibility.

This is not a law they are passing, its a condition that must be met to work on the land owners property, set up by the land owner. In this case the land owner is the state.

[woodtroll]

There is an issue of personal freedom here. The right of the state (not an individual) to require gear to cut on public owned land. They are not a private company hiring an individual performing a service. Their liability would not be changed if the individual gets hurt or not. If they want a person to carry liablity insurance, that would be different. That affects others and property. Maybe they should require only new stihl chainsaws of a certain size. Because a new saw will be safer then the old one.  You need to run semi chisel chain or saftey chain, its safer, and they know better then we do.
When you ride through a state park on a bike, wear a helmet, gloves, pads and safety glasses.
When you walk in the woods carry two walking sticks to help hold you up.
It is not that these things are not safer. But do you have to be told to do it by the government?

The other side is the right of the individual to cut else where.
imo

[Gary_C]

There is an issue of personal freedom here. The right of the state (not an individual) to require gear to cut on public owned land.

Yes, we certainly do love our rights, even if it is the right to be stupid.  :

The same issue comes up over seatbelt laws. I always wear my seatbelt and feel uncomfortable without it on. And the MN seatbelt law was originally passed with seatbelt violations as a secondary law. In other words you could not be stopped for a seatbelt violation but could be ticketed if you were stopped for something else. However that secondary thing ended at the last legislative session because of that pressing safety issue of "budget shortfalls." Right after the law was changed the local towns set up their "budget police" at every parking lot at all the local malls and wrote tickets if you even started moving your vehicle while fastening your seatbelt.

This safety training issue just reared it head in southern MN where mostly hardwood loggers predominate. And even though the state has rules requiring safety training for state contracts, the DNR has never enforced the law. And apparently one of the loggers that has taken the safety training lost a state contract bid to a logger that has never taken the training. A complaint was filed and the DNR had to schedule an emergency training to get about twenty loggers that had been ignoring the training requirement thru the safety training.  :

Oh, and as far as I know, the MN law just required the safety training, it does not require PPE.