Skidding logs with a tractor

[logger t]

i started logging in 9191 with a john deere 3020 with a cab from a 440-a on it and a farmi winch and used a old 4by 4 pickup with a snow plow to pile with we got 3 wheeler loads a week was a lot of work but we did it like my 748 alot better but thats what i started with .

[rogdan]

 Timeless advice and information but what became of the Norwood skidding winch ???

[weimedog]

Speak for them selves, discussion in that other post skidder vs. tractors...

International 1066 (100hp plus & 12,000 pounds) with  double ring chains...much more effective than I thought it would be...


The 1066 pulled out three loads like this November/December 2011


Massey Ferguson 1433 4x4 compact (33hp) for tops and smaller wood


My wood lot

[Bogue Chitto]

I took a old hay lift cut off the bottom two spikes and put a large pair of logging tongs on the center spike.  Just back up to the log and go.  Works just fine.

[weimedog]

I took a old hay lift cut off the bottom two spikes and put a large pair of logging tongs on the center spike.  Just back up to the log and go.  Works just fine.

You have pics? I was thinking of doing the same on the little tractor. Think the stuff I typically pull with the bigger one would either bend/break any tongs I could find or tear them out of the log going around trees or going up the really steep grades.

[Bogue Chitto]

I will take some pictures for over the weekend.  Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company . 

[lumberjack48]

They won't pull out if there set good, and a good set of logging Tongs won't bend.

When logging big pine or hardwood is a good way to go with a skidder.

When cutting pine, I'd saw a 33 foot [2 16's] in other words saw the tree in two. We had to sets of Tongs on the skidder, back up where i sawed, instead of digging in the snow setting chockers, throw the Tongs on and your gone, pull on the landing and drop, they on hook them self, back out for another hook. [ Fast ]

[Bogue Chitto]

My bad. S :-\ :-\orry Jeff.  Want happen again.

[MHineman]

  I use a 40hp MFWD tractor with loader and Wallenstein FX90 skidding winch.  Central Indiana is almost all flat so I don't have much hill issues to deal with.

  The winch is perfect for this tractor at 9,000 pounds pull.  I rarely use a cable choker and only now and then on small logs do I use a choke chain.  I almost always skidding tongs.  Once those are sunk into the log, they do not come out, but come off easily when you get to the log yard.

  For anybody new to skidding, get a self releasing snatch block to redirect the logs around other trees.  It's great for doubling the pull force if you need it too.  Like when you get one tree hung up in another tree.

[Okrafarmer]

My dad and I used a 1948 John Deere B for about 25 years (circa 1985-2010) with a 3-point mounted, home built chain arch. They are easy to make. He welded it out of scrap steel. You set two (or more) notches to hold chains, and you can lift the front of the logs off the ground.

Having spent so much time at it over the years, and having learned some lessons the hard way, let me see if I can break it down for you.

First, the tractor. 1948 John Deere B, with rollomatic narrow front end.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/006/9/8/6989-john-deere-b.html

Adjustable rear wheel tread. Ours was set around 6 ft wide. (important). 27 engine horsepower. fuel, gasoline. No external ballast. No loaded tires. Approximate weight 4,300 lbs. plus operator. 38 inch rear tires. Decent tire tread. No chains. No four-wheel-drive. No diff lock. No power-shift. No synchro transmission. 6 transmission speed forward, one reverse. Low gear speed: 1.75 mph. High gear speed +/- 10.5 mph. Transmission-drive (non-independent) PTO. PTO-driven (non-indpendent) hydraulic rockshaft with home-made 3-point hitch, no down pressure. HAND-operated clutch lever. 2-cylinder engine, 190 CID, 1250 rated RPM (rarely attained in daily use). No ROPS, roll-bar, or operator protection of any kind. No fenders. No power steering. (steering was quite manageable while moving).

On the plus side, the tractor had several notable capabilities. The home-made three-point hitch, attached to the rudimentary hydraulic rockshaft, was strong enough to lift any logs the tractor was capable of pulling out of the woods. If the weight was too much, it could actually lift the front end of the tractor off the ground, so hydraulic power was acceptable. The big rear tires of the tractor gave a considerable amount of traction, and it could forge through 18 inch snow. Due to its narrow front end and adequate rear wheel brakes, it could pivot on either rear wheel to turn 90 degrees to either side. The narrow front end gave it more tree clearance when making these tight maneuvers. The horizontal 2-cylinder engine gave it a much lower center of gravity than one might expect, making it adequately stable. The roll-o-matic front end suspension, a John Deere exclusive, allowed the dual front wheels to pivot independently for shared load-baring and steering traction. The hand clutch, when the operator became well accustomed to it, was actually a quicker and safer way to stop the tractor than a foot clutch (our hand reflexes are quicker than our foot reflexes).

We would cut our firewood, saw-log, and pulp trees down, and completely limb them before backing the tractor to them. We preferred to skid from the butt end of the logs since they were heavier, and we would get better traction. we would pull the logs out tree-length except the very rare occasions (central Maine, here) when we would cut a tree too large to pull out in its entirety. The tractor could generally haul an 18-inch white pine or hemlock, 50-60 ft. long, or two or three 12-15 inch balsam firs, 30-40 ft. long. For hardwoods, we could haul two 12-inch maples tree length, or one larger one. This we did under just about every imaginable tractive condition, from deep mud to deep snow, frozen bare ground, and glare ice. Sometimes we would have problems, but we would have to learn our way around them. We got stuck sometimes, but we always managed to get out. Usually without going back to the house for additional resources. I operated this tractor in the woods from the time I was 10 years old until I was 16, when I left home and went to college, and intermittently after that. We never used a winch.

The method of skidding logs was like this. We would back up to the log, drop the 3-point hitch with chain arch as close to the end of the log as we could get to, set the brakes, engage the clutch in neutral with the PTO turned on (thus also enabling the hydraulics), hop off, unhook one end of the chain from the arch, snake it around the log, take out the slack by pulling the chain taught, and snag it in the notch in the chain arch as tight as possible. Then, we would reach up to the rockshaft lever (which could conveniently be accessed from behind the tractor, unlike on many tractors) and raise the 3-point, thus dragging the log closer to the tractor. If the log was still too far away after that, we would drop the hitch, take the newly obtained slack out of the chain, resnag it tighter, and retreat the process. Sometimes if the log was bound up by other trees, we could only gain a link or two each time. When we got the log close enough to where the tractor could actually lift the end off the ground, we would then hop back on, put the tractor in first or second gear, depending on terrain, and ease forward until we got the log out to the relatively smooth logging road, where we would shift up to 3, 4, 5, or sometimes even 6th gear if conditions allowed. (yes, I routinely twitched tree-length logs in road gear on our smoother woods roads in the winter). One log was not enough, unless it was a huge one, so we would drop the first log in a safe flat spot where we could get by, then go back for a second one, bring it out alongside the first one, then rehook the first one alongside the second one, to have two tree-length logs bouncing along behind the tractor all the way to the landing, which was typically at least a quarter mile away. If we were doing firewood or pulp and had some smaller logs, we would take as many as 4 smaller ones at once. But 2 was a typical load out. When we got to the landing, we would drive up beside or even over the top of the logs that had been brought out previously. For pulp wood, we would have to consolidate the pile so somebody's wheeler could get in to pick it up, but when we were just doing firewood, we would let it sprawl out all over the landing. We would make it as dense as we could by straddling and sometimes even driving up over existing logs to lay the new ones in between or on top of the old ones. On years when we actually had a functioning bulldozer at home, we could start it up and push the pile up as needed, especially to accommodate wheelers, but we usually didn't cut more than a single wheeler load of pulp per year, and not every year. we typically cut 4-6 cords of firewood for our own use each year, the intermittent pulp load (usually fir or popple) and occasionally saw logs, which we never cut more than a few at a time, maybe a small truck load.

Now, having said all that, I can't recommend it to anybody, because it just isn't safe. But we were poor desperate starving people who didn't believe in asking for handouts. Dad bought the John Deere B for around $1,000 in 1980 or 1981. He did some work on it over the years, fixed the transmission, and a number of other things, and designed and built the 3-point hitch and chain arch himself, but it gave him 30 years of stellar service, after it had already given somebody else 30 years of stellar service. I was mad at him when he sold it in 2010.

Now all you people with your nice 4x4 Kubotas with winches, ROPS, hyrdrostatic transmissions, and things of that nature, you all be safe out there, you hear? You can't do what a skidder can do, in terms of production figures, but you can go places a skidder can't go (like between 2 trees that are six feet apart). You can go places a skidder isn't worth it, like on a half-acre lot. You can put your Kubota on a trailer and tow it behind your pickup. Try that with your Timberjack! And you can mess around and log a small parcel on the amount of fuel it would take to drive the skidder there on a low-boy, offload it, reload it, and haul it back home. As someone said already, just

REMEMBER THAT YOUR LITTLE TRACTOR IS NOT A SKIDDER, and it is BREAKABLE, unlike a skidder. Like was said, the difference between a deer and a moose, or, I say, the difference between a pack-goat and a draft-ox. Don't ask your tractor to do more than it ought to be able to do. And don't treat those little over-seas tractors like antique American made machines-- the cargo-container tractors will never have the resillience and charisma of an antique John Deere, Farmall or Oliver, but they are much safer and more productive, so long as you don't treat them like skidders.  ;)

[thecfarm]

We did have loaded tires on the NAA Ford,but just about the same way we brought logs out of the woods. My Father was on the tractor and I was the chain man. Than we bought a Norse 3pt winch and a 40 hp 4wd tractor with a loader. What a treat that was. He only got to use it for about 3-4 years before he died. He could of bought it 20 years before that. These old thread just pop up and off they go.

[Okrafarmer]

I may have implied, but I may as well state, that the amount of logging you intend to do in a year should also be a factor when deciding on a tractor. We were weekend warriors, so to speak, hauling out 4-15 cords of wood per year, or so. If you only plan to do a little bit of logging, part time, either for your own use or to sell a little, then a tractor is a relatively inexpensive way to get your foot in the door. The tractor has the additional benefit of being useful for many other things besides logging, such as gardening, haying, and so on. Skidders-- well, they do have other uses, but not typically those, and any use besides logging for a skidder is typically inefficient, except a few specific uses with a very narrow demand.

If you buy a tractor with the intention of logging with it, be sure to buy a brand and model that is very common, so that you will have no trouble buying parts WHEN it breaks down. For most tractors more than 20 years old and smaller than 60 hp, that were commonly sold models, buying parts is usually fairly easy and not typically as expensive as replacing parts in a big log skidder. You're also more likely to have the tools and facilities to do the work yourself, if you're so inclined. Want to know what models of tractors are common? (in USA) Go to

http://www.tractorhouse.com/drilldown/manufacturers.aspx?ETID=1&catid=1100

Select a brand that you know is common, or that has more than 100 listings. Then you will be at a subpage, such as this:

http://www.tractorhouse.com/drilldown/models.aspx?ETID=1&catid=1100&Manu=MASSEY-FERGUSON

And you can look at the different models listed and notice which models have a lot of listings-- like, say, 10 or more. In this example, you can see that the most common used Massey Ferguson available on this website at this time is the model 135. (no surprise, to those of us who know tractors). There are many other models with, say, 10-30 of them for sale. Those are the more common models available.

Then you can look through the common models and get a feel for which model might best suit your needs, at a price you can afford. To get more data on tractor specs, check the specs at

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/index.html

Personal preference comes in to play, as well.....

[pineywoods]

Okrafarmer got it right. I grew up in the rural south, where most jobs were forestry related in one way or another. Nobody had skidders. For skidding out tree length logs, the machine of choice was 9N, 8N fords, Masseyferguson 35, 135 or a pair of big mules. A few folks tried small tracked dozers, they usually went broke. If you have enough work to keep a skidder busy, that's the way to go, but otherwise they are a money pit. I still own a 1960 massey 135 that I used for logging for many years. For just pure log skidding, it's still better than the bigger M series kubota I currently use. But the kubota has hydraulics, a front loader with forks (not recommended on the fords or masseys), and a winch to retrieve logs I can't quite get to otherwise. I never remember seeing a farmall or one of the early deeres in the woods, there were plenty of them in the cotton patches and corn fields.

[Okrafarmer]

In Maine, the JD and Farmalls were used heavily in the woods, along with Allis Chalmers, Oliver, and Massey Harris. The utilities were left home a lot. The little crawlers were used a lot too, JD MC, 40, 420, etc. and Oliver HG, OC-3, and so on. Cat D-2, D-4, International T-6, T-9, and the like. The crawlers keep going even when skidders are grounded.

[Bogue Chitto]

 

 
I took an old hay rake and modified it with logging tongs.  I back up to the log lower tongs and take off. 

[Okrafarmer]

That rig ought to work pretty well, Bogue. I might consider cutting off the remaining length of the bale spear past the tongs, to keep from hitting my head or other parts on it while walking around the tractor.

[Raider Bill]

 
I took an old hay rake and modified it with logging tongs.  I back up to the log lower tongs and take off.

Are the tongs welded to the spear?  It looks like you cut the lower spears off completely? That seems like a pretty simple arrangement. Guess I'm going to have to locate one I already have the tongs. Thanks!

[Bogue Chitto]

Two bottom spears run all the way through frame and were bolted from other side.  Top spear was the same way.  When I made it I never took the sharp point off and backed it into a tree.  Broke in half.  Spear is much shorter and I cut the point off. Much safer now.

[Bogue Chitto]

 

  No the tongs are not welded to spear.  I welded a cleat to to the top so I can slide the tongs on and off.

[Raider Bill]

For my use that seems to be the ticket!  I'm searching craigs list now for the starter kit ;D
What would you figure the best length for the spear to be when cut off?

[beenthere]

Also, for about $200 (less used) a 3 ph quick hitch works well as it comes with the top hook. No cutting, breaking, or welding required.  Just drop the tongs over the hook when needed.
And use the hitch to easily pick up other attachments.. ballast box, rotary cutter, forks, etc.



 

[Raider Bill]

My Kubota is a 43 HP 4wd, what class quick hitch would I need?

[beenthere]

Believe they come in cat. I or cat. II whichever you have (likely cat I)

Speeco, Harbor Freight, Deere iMatch are some.

Also here is vid. It is in some foreign language, but the visual is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kam1f1uMyYE

[Bogue Chitto]

For my use that seems to be the ticket!  I'm searching craigs list now for the starter kit ;D
What would you figure the best length for the spear to be when cut off?

The cleat used to be further out from the tractor until I backed into a oak tree and broke it off.  I used for about 6 years before it broke but that was due to sticking the sharp point into the tree.  Now it is shorter and I cut the point off which I should have done when I made it.  I liked it when it was longer because the tongs where further from the tractor allowing you to get  a better grip on the log. I don't know why I left that much spear on the lift but it could be cut off at the cleat.

[Okrafarmer]

Also, for about $200 (less used) a 3 ph quick hitch works well as it comes with the top hook. No cutting, breaking, or welding required.  Just drop the tongs over the hook when needed.
And use the hitch to easily pick up other attachments.. ballast box, rotary cutter, forks, etc.



 

We never had any tongs, but we built a framework to lift the logs by means of chains. A quick-coupler would have worked, and I thought about making the log frame into a quick-coupler. We always called the frame a log arch, even though it didn't have wheels.