wasted cuts?

[Sawyerfortyish]

I have a circle mill and start with the small end of the log. I have a laser light and tapers on the mill to set up the log for the best cut with mininum waste. If the slab has a board left in it it goes to a resaw. I try to open the log up with a 6"face cut if its a butt log with a belled end that piece will go to the resaw. I went through saving this piece and that piece bottom line how much crap do you want laying around to trip over.I have a mulch grinder to get rid of my waste. Sometimes that piece of lumber I would have laying around is worth more in a differant form or I can get my money out of quicker by grinding it to mulch. I know some of you skinflints will still save those boards move them 5 times trip over them hurt yourself and finally throw them in the firewood pile. I have learned to deal with them get them out of my way. After all it's not wasted if you can sell it it's just not worth as much as mulch or firewood as it would be as a board. I want to sell my wood and turn it into money as quick as I can so I can start the process all over again

[ladylake]

 I used to hate making wasted cuts but after switching over to the diesel it cuts so much faster I don't mind. The 1/2" sure makes a difference on a lot of logs. Yes I'm a mizer, my short boards go into stickers which I never seem to have enough .  Steve

[Peter Drouin]

Hi all I don't like to waste lumber but sometimes it happing the slab has 1x4 in it . it gos on the 1 ton with all the waste and I give it all away, Ill even deilver for free to the families in town . In these times we all need help sometime. beside, that way I  handle them one time. But on the road I do try to get all I can (get paid by the B,F ) But sometime you know.  :D :D :D  Big end or small I don;t care they all cut the same  after a million B.F they all look alike :D :D :D

[red oaks lumber]

we dont save any 4". open the face for 6", the customer cant see if the slab is a touch thicker. why spend dollars chasing pennies? if your cutting wood at $1.00/ bf 4" $2.67  6" $4.00  the thicker slab looks like a bargin.

[Peter Drouin]

Red oak If you cut a 1x4x8' thats 2.6 bf x 4 faces thats 10.4 bf at 1.00 a bf that will be 10.40 a log x40 or so logs I do before 3pm thats 416.00 dollars thats a lot of pennies. a day 8) 8) But for me pine at .25 =104.00 a day hard wood =145.60 over 16'=187.20 a day?? why not 8) 8)

[Larry]

I knew what I thought I should know...plus I have my preferences...than there is what I've read. 

But the truth?

Decided to doodle with SketchUp.  Drew the perfect 14" diameter log.  Cut my first board with a 4" face.  Guess what...I only had to drop down another 1/8" to pull a 6" face.  Just from my doodles I don't think opening to a 6" face in a 14" log wastes much wood at all.  Carrying my doodles a little further, in a 18" log I think opening to a 4" face might even waste wood.

I do know (with a few exceptions) that 4" hardwood board can never ever be FAS by NHLA rules.  So a 4" 1C RO board is gonna be a 50 percent penalty in the wholesale market, over a 6" FAS board.

Now iffen we had a really smart person they could prove or disprove my doodles with higher mathematics, that would satisfy my curiosity.

Where's Arky when he's needed?

[ohsoloco]

Logs with sweep are logs that are losers.  You can never get the grade out of them, since you'll have pith in your  boards on either side of the log.  That just kills the grade.  And those crooked logs will yield crooked boards when they dry.    

All of the cutting I've been doing lately has been custom sawing, so I'm just getting paid for the lumber that I cut.  It doesn't take much variation in a log to turn your 4" of heartwood on an opening face (on both ends) to all sapwood in the middle.  Just gotta make the best lumber you can out of the customer's logs.

Those wasted cuts come in handy as well though.  I separate those thin boards from the slab pile and use them for kindling. 

[Peter Drouin]

Well larry im not smart but when someone  ask for 1x4 pine or hemlock for a roof I sell it to them for .60 a bf and there all cut  .I don;t have to recut 1x8 .And the Mathematics are in my hand.   ;D

[paul case]

hey peter,
think what larry was talking about wasnt a stop by and buy a few boards or order some kind of deal. most of us are in for that. the grade deal however buy on their own rules and you cant get top money out of a 1x4. i am talking about oak of course. when i am cutting grade i dont send 1x4simply because it knocks down the price. i can get $.60 for those out the back door. but a 1x6 may pay as much as $.94. i will try to cut more clear 1x6,1x8 ,1x10,1x12 to send rather than the narrower boards. i dont waste them ,but i simply make pallet boards out of them and since my pallet size is 5/8'' x4x40 i am probably on the 6'' face after 1 pallet board comes off.

the wasted cuts i was really refering to was not the 4'' or 6'' face ,it was on the one that dont open up wide enough to have any good boards. even yesterday i found myself making multiple cuts just to get enough off to get a good face. maybe a laser light would be a fix, but i thought experience would kick in and make it easier not to get too much or too little on the slab. i guess i need more years?   pc

[Peter Drouin]

Hello pc, I guess I may have misunderstood. But I do know about grade because I'm certified by the State of NH. But I know what you mean. I don't have a laser on my LT40 super. I just eyeball the top of the log stops to the top of the log and for the most part do pretty good. But sometimes you know.  Regards Pete 8) 8) 8)

[Ron Wenrich]

Lasers work well, but you can't have too much background lighting or you won't see that far.  I use them inside and I can see them well from about 20'.  But, if the sun shines on them, they get real hard to see. 

[reprosser]

I am new at this, so help me out. I am milling for myself with my own trees right now. Working on SYP to store up enough lumber to build a house. Also have cherry, oak, hickory an a smaller scale - just to have some wood for furniture projects and such.

I am cutting my SYP at 2". I am loading my log on the mill with the large end near the mill head. I have been coming down about an inch and running the first cut (face cut?).  Sometimes I run out of the log before getting to the end. I come back and lower the blade to what seems enough to get a flat face for the entire length and try again. Once I have a flat face (may only be a few inches wide), I flip the log and repeat on the opposite side. Then I rotate 90 degrees and get a flat side, flip and repeat.

Now I have a square-ish cant that had some bark on the corners. Now, I start the 2" flat cuts to make boards. All the boards have some bark on the edges at this point. I figure that once they dry, I can trim the bark and make the boards as long/wide as possible - depending on the bark intrusion. (Maybe a 4 ft board 12 " wide, and a 6 ft board 8" wide after trimming the edges - instead of a 10 ft board 8" wide)

Is there a better way to try and get the most out of the wood? Is it preferable to make the first cuts deep enough so there is no bark on the cant to start cutting boards? Is there a table or chart that would guide me in determining what to set the first cut depth at for a certain diameter log to get the best cant?

Is it worth the time/effort to try and level the log on the bed (wedge up the narrower end so the center of the log runs level)? Would this save some wasted cuts?

Maybe there is a posting of the detailed steps to saw a log, but I did not find it. :P

[ely]

roughly stated i always raise my log up on the small end about half what the taper on a log is. that will usually get me close to leveling the center of the log.

if it really is critical to what im sawing i will go away from the mill and look at the log to see if its correct.
i always try and place the small end towards the saw head. my dad saws the opposite.

[beenthere]

reprosser
There was some sawing research done years back on SYP looking at sawing parallel to the bark, and taking the taper out of the center juvenile wood. The idea was to study the effects of straight grain wood on strength yield, as well as improved yield of straight lumber. Put the waste in the low-quality core wood, rather than the high quality wood just under the bark.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fplrp51.pdf

Also, there was also a study later, leaving the ripping until after drying, with interest in reducing the warp.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fplrp479.pdf

Both studies had positive results, but were not the easiest for high production mills to implement. A band mill could do the task much better.
Neither may just what you are interested in knowing, but there are pics of sawing patterns that might help.

[ladylake]

 I find myself making more wasted cuts when I'm going after a certain size board and the log is none to big.  Take that little bit too much off on side and theres not enough left on the other side

[Okrafarmer]

There was some sawing research done years back on SYP looking at sawing parallel to the bark, and taking the taper out of the center juvenile wood. The idea was to study the effects of straight grain wood on strength yield, as well as improved yield of straight lumber. Put the waste in the low-quality core wood, rather than the high quality wood just under the bark.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fplrp51.pdf

That is how I did my walnut log today, since it had a little rot spot in the middle of the big end. The results were pretty good.

[Okrafarmer]

Here is my last cut. You can see the taper. And my fat belly-- don't get too distracted by that please, I'm trying to illustrate the taper cut. Essentially I ended up with a wedge shape piece at the end.

[redbeard]

Hello Reprosser if your logs are nice and straight and the log pith looks like a bullseye you should level the center , if the taper is heavy you will still get your short stuff if you want or go in heavy. I find it easier cutting when centers are leveled, bowed and logs with a dog leg whole nother story.

[reprosser]

Hello Reprosser if your logs are nice and straight and the log pith looks like a bullseye ...

Don't think I have any of those around here  ;D ;) :D

thanks all - good info
rick

[wannasaw]

One tip that helped me was to leave the first or third cut narrow and then I can roll it to the bottom and it can come off as th last board or a slab. But when the logs have humps and toes it gives me more time to think about it without a customer watching me scratch my head and yes there's an extra flip but it's paid off several times. Hey Paul maybe you or someone can tell me what to do when the heart check runs perpindicular to the hump. Do you still saw to the check or stay with the hump? Ive had about 4 boatds to split out of the heart in one log while sawing against the check and anything less than 8" crowns when sawing with the check on humped logs. the logs are green and 10" is our target board.

[paul case]

i never heard of it and cant quite picture it.  some logs i try to saw should be in the firewood pile and maybe you will be able to tell next time that a log that looks that way is probably no good for lumber.  pc

[Magicman]

For me, the heart check over rides all other defects.  There is no need to saw it if the boards are going to split open because of heart check.

Here's and illustration of a 31" Cherry log with heart check.  The check disappeared within a couple of boards.





First and second faces open and ready to open the third faces.



The heart check disappears in the low quality board below.




Another illustration:



Unsawed log ready to open the first face.



Ready to open the second face.



Third face opened.



Sawing through



Again, the heart check disappears in a low quality board.
In both of these instances, other defects had to be dealt with.  The boards splitting because of heart check was not an issue.

[Okrafarmer]

Thanks for sharing your magic, MM. That was very helpful, especially as I have some cherry logs coming up to saw. Tell me, is the heart check always the same direction on both ends of the log? It looks here like it may be. I did not realize that. Could have done a little better with my last walnut log if I'd realized that, maybe.

[Magicman]

Yes, unless there is something very "out of whack" with the log.  Cherry logs almost always have heart check, especially the larger ones.  I sawed about a dozen Cherry logs today.  I had to orient the heart check on all of them.

The Sassafras and Cypress had no heart check so the sweep ruled.

[paul case]

now i get the picture. thanks mm.
yes i have dealt with that quite a bit and notice the way mm made the opening face cut on the right side each time so that the crack runs the width of the boards being sawed. thats how you keep from making a whole stack of boards with a big check in the end of them. t=it gets easy with a little practice. our red oaks want to split when felling them sometimes and the split can be sawed out in a couple of boards by opening the log in a certain way.  pc