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Started by Frank_Pender, December 03, 2003, 06:59:23 PM

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Frank_Pender

I have just completed a portion of a very large custom sawing job for a new house.   The owner has furnished the raw logs and I am to buck the logs based on the materials need for building.   I hve no problem with that portion, I do it all the time.  
Here is the de lemon:  Most custome sawyers in this area charge based on the full dimension method, 2  x 4, 6, 8, 10 etc.  I have been chargeing, based on actual.

Question: What is the customary method or schedule in you neck of the woods, please? ???
Frank Pender

dan-l-b

I am like you, Frank, I charge based on actual dimension if it is their logs.  My de lemma is when a saw a bunch of 1/2" cedar.  Peoples eyes get kinda wide when you say they are getting charged like it is a one by

Tom

Frank,
I have been lucky to have set the precedence here for portable mills.  Most local little mills charge for nominal thicknesses.  "Real 2 X 4's".

I have gotten a reputation for charging on a quarter scale. The customer calls it a 2 X 4 but wants it cut 1 1/2 X 3 1/2.  When the time for tally comes I charge him for a 6/4 X 4.   Other sizes follow the same pattern.

They are happy with the deal and I sleep good at night.  I also tell them what I've done.

Here is he other side of the coin. I'm not just a push-over.  When I have a customer who is super critical and gets out the tape measure and measures most of the boards and criticizes boards that warp or bow due to log stress and throws good stuff on the slab pile and cuts 8 foot logs, 9 3/4 feet long etc.  I charge him for 2 X 4's regardless of how I end up cutting them.

Most of the lumber I cut for rough construction is just cut on the true scale and ends up being nominal minus the kerf of the saw.   The Farmers like that because they can use a 16 penny and still have a beefy board.   The 6/4 boards I saw usually have the widths cut to nominal minus the kerf because it's easier on me.

I explain to the customer that a sawmills job is to break logs up into usable pieces not to make perfect dressed sized boards.  If they understand that they are asking for me and the mill to produce something that was intended for a planer and I can't guarantee that I can make each board perfect,  then I will work with them the best that I can.

The difference in board size isn't usually quite as dramatic as your dollar figures because I end up getting more boards from a log than I would if I cut to nominal sizes.  The difference, while still sizable, is really only a few dollars and something I've learned to live with for the sake of a satisfied customer. :)

Anything I cut that is less than an inch gets charged as an inch.  I tell them that up front too. :)

solidwoods

I cut 1.75  x width and charge 2 x width.  Have since 92.  Every other mill I have talked too does also (not including the Commercial lumber industry).
This is the first place that I have seen people not.

Remember,,if you don't make money at mathing the specific dimension  ,,,raise the price by the difference and you get the same $ as if you would have rounded up to 2" x width.

Reminds me of the Doyle scale overage (we all get it)
JIM
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

woodchip

I agree with solid woods,You have to make a profit somehow or you can,t stay in business.

Tom

I've had no problem staying in business or making a profit.  My customers are like family.  I know it and so do they. My phone rings off of the hook with new as well as old customers.  I've passed customers on to sawmill owners who are trying to get started.  I still have a good customer base and the old ones keep coming back.  I'm not afraid to leave a nickel on the table and they appreciate it.   They appreciate it so much that many times I'm overpaid.  :)

Frank_Pender

Thanks for the feedback, fellas.  :) I kind of compare my charging methods to the state of Oregon's weights and measures law in selling firewood.   By state law you are allowed up to 20% air space in a cord of firewood.  So, lets say you are paying $100 for a cord and 20% is air.   As I am looking at it they are paying for nothing.  :-/  Perhaps I have been comparing apples and oranges, but that is how I have angled my thinking in trying to develop a fee schedule. :P
Frank Pender

Captain

With all of the conversation here, I have to vote for pricing by the log scale....for cutting.  When the logs are curved, knotty, rotten in the center....the price is the same.  I am not responsible for log quality.

Having said that, all else that keeps the blade out of the log is charges by the hour, log staging, metal removal, cleaning/debarking dirty logs, etc.

Makes it tough, but it is all understood in the contract up front :P

Captain

Frank_Pender

Something very interesting about this thread just accured to me.  I came back and looked at the number of hits on this issue as compared to the number of responses.    There seems to be more than a passing interest in the place I have found myself.   Perhaps there are more out there than just me, who are  up against this kind of concern.  Perhaps not.  Just another equation to put in the soup.  

I know many of us do not like to share our business practices as well as our methodology of doing business.   I have always found it the best practice for me was to share my ideas, beliefs and values with others and it is more often than not "returned ten fold".   There are a number of things I have learned all my life as a small business person and that is stay true to yourself as well as your customers and the customrs will return time and time again.  

I had a call from someone to saw some Black Walnut logs a couple days ago.  I could have done a fair type of job for them, but flet that since the logs were so small that it would be more productive of retrieved usable lumber to have Loren to the job for the gentleman.  I had never met the man, but had heard of him as a great woodshop teacher in a very large community school system.  I sent him to Loren.   The customer will have to travel further by 25 miles one way but the return on lumber will be greater.  Loren gained a customer I lost one.  However, there is the potential of a customer at a point down the road.
Frank Pender

woodmills1

I was thinkin this thread reminded me why I charge by the hour.  Local circle mills will cut bd ft for less but waste a lot more and won't cut short, large or small stuff.  By the hour if the customer wants 7/8 or 1 3/4 I do it as well as make stickers, trim ends and move stuff around.  Some jobs the customer is there to help and he gets good bd ft prices other jobs I sticker. So all in all i don't want to compete on bd ft price but will take any and all at 50 an hour.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

dewwood

I agree with woodmills, charge by the hour and the customer that has good logs and a good setup will come out ahead but the one that has nasty logs spread all over and has to just run to town for something will pay a little more per foot.  I know what I can saw in a reasonable day and the customer that helps make the sawing go faster lowers his cost per bd ft considerably.
Selling hardwood lumber, doing some sawing and drying, growing the next generation of trees and enjoying the kids and grandkids.

woodchip

I cut by the hour and b,f.,what ever works out good for my customers.Sometimes if my good customers come by with one log,being good customers,I will cut it free of charge when my mill running that day.Works real good for repeat business on large orders. 8)

Ron Wenrich

Crook, sweep, and rot are volume deductions when scaling logs.  You may chose to ignore it , but I wouldn't try to buy logs without deducting for volume loss.

We charge by the nominal method for custom sawing dimension stock.  But, if they don't want an actual 2 x 4, they better not order it.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Frickman

I run a circle mill, and over the years custom sawed hundreds of orders. In that time I only had one job that made me money, for a good friend. He had some nice, medium sized poplar logs he needed cut into scale planks. Every other job has cost me money, so I am glad all you other fellas are taking up the slack, as I have stopped custom sawing.

The biggest problems we have had is unrealistic expectations from the logs' owners and tramp metal and dirt. The metal and dirt aren't too good for a circle mill, so now I won't saw a log unless I know where it came from. The customers usually want a 2 x 12 x 8 out of a ten inch log, and I spend too much time dealing with them, explaining why it won't work. Being a circle mill I don't like visitors too much so it is difficult to get the customer in there while you are sawing and show him what is going on. Especially when the old Detroit is bellowing. You portable band guys have a big advantage over me in that you can get the customer up close and show them what is going on. We would charge by log scale, International Rule, and saw out whatever they wanted. It took alot of time to explain to them that a ten foot long log could yield 100 feet of lumber.

I still do alot of custom work, even one of a kind mantle pieces and such. But I saw it out of our logs and the customer orders and purchases the lumber, instead of hiring me to saw. I've been looking at the band mills for some time, and may get one sometime. Until then, I'll let Tom and all you other fellas saw logs for folks. You all tell some interesting stories, so maybe I'll have to try it too.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

ARKANSAWYER

   If you saw 1 5/8 by 3 5/8 and sell it as a 2x4 you will get more lumber from the log then if you cut it auctial size.  It will take you longer to skin that log cutting the smaller boards.  They get more that they can use and are better for it.  I saw hardwoods 1 1/8 and softwoods 1 inch but charge the same for both.   I just made it a habit to charge all the same and it is in the contract that all must read and sign.  I do have an hour rate and most of the time they will come out close to the same.  Now if I am just cutting cedar poles square for a barn then I do it by the hour and go most quick.   If they have a bunch of 6 inch logs and want 1/2 boards then I do it by the hour.   If the log is hollow and rotten and the boards break in half I still charge for them as if they were FAS.  Next time I will not have to saw rotten logs.   I have tried many times of talking folks out of sawing this or that but, they want it sawed and fuss about paying.   On the return trip I do not waste as much breath.   It is fair as my time has some value since I could be home sawing or deer hunting.
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

Bibbyman

Same here Arky,  

But we've never really charged by the hour.  We loose a little on the one-log jobs just because the customers eat up so much time – or the nature of the sawing.  We just put it down to "neighborly service" and go on.  Half the time you don't see that customer again and then again they have come back with some profitable business the next time.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Oregon_Sawyer

Frank:

I did the little job you sent me, Saturday.  It was some black walnut some had been stored for 10 yrs and there was a fresh short log and a short crotch.

I charged by the hour $70.00.  They were very happy.  Then they stayed around for a while and visited until I told them I had to deliver some wood.  So with the BS time I got about 50/ hr.

I usually charge by the bd ft.  I figure bd ft by nominal size. (ie. a 1 1/2 x 5 1/2 is a 2x6).  If they want full dimension I charge the same.  Anything from 1 in or less is figured as a 1 in board and I charge about 50% more if everything is 1 in.

For unusual and small logs or oversize logs I charge by the hour.  I am still calculating what is a fair hourly rate for the LT70.  I haven't done a production job with it yet, but I think i can cut twice what I could with my LT40 HD35.  I got 60.00 an hour for the LT40.

Loren
Sawing with a WM since 98. LT 70 42hp Kubota walk behind. 518 Skidder. Ramey Log Loader. Serious part-timer. Western Red Cedar and Doug Fir.  Teamster Truck Driver 4 days a week.

Tom

I'm just wondering what you fellows who don't make a distinction between 2" dressed and 2" nominal do when your customer asks for 6/4 X 6" X 10'.  Do you make a distinction then? :-/ :)

SawInIt CA

I decide before I start the job and "with" the customers agreement. It depends on the ratio. If the wanted mostly 1 inch and needed some  say 5/4 I would bill it all as 1 inch. If they wanted all 5/4 I would probably bill it at 1.5...... ???
Fortunantly they ussualy get standard sizes

ARKANSAWYER

 1 3/8 and less I bill as 1 inch and over as 2 inch.   So 5/4 goes as 1 inch.   I have had some have me count the size of the stack and bill it as each cubic foot as 12 bdft.   I tried to tell them it would cost them more but they did not believe.  So I billed them by the cubic foot.   Makes counting easy.
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

Oregon_Sawyer

A 6/4x6x10  would be considered and billed as 2x6x10.  On the west coast I don't very often have request for lumber by 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 8/4.

Softwoods are almost always cut and sold as "1 or 2in".  

If I was to do an order for 5/4 I would scale it as such but would charge more per bd ft than I would 2"

Some one somewhere suggested the possibility of charging by actual saw cuts.  That was an interesting suggestion.  That would be more like what most of the molding shops charge as they charge by the lineal ft.

Hourly is definitely the easiest, but most of my customers want to know how much the lumber is costing them before I start cutting.

Loren
Sawing with a WM since 98. LT 70 42hp Kubota walk behind. 518 Skidder. Ramey Log Loader. Serious part-timer. Western Red Cedar and Doug Fir.  Teamster Truck Driver 4 days a week.

RevCant

Most of my work is on site.  Therefore, I do not have the advantages of a stationary set-up.  I charge by the hour.  I have for years and most customers seem content with this.  There is always the customer who wants to nickel and dime me.  Usually these are old guys who last paid $8/100 to have someone saw their lumber in 1950.  I tell them to go somewhere else.  
Someone who has a stationary set up can control most of the variables in sawing.  You know the log chain, the green chain, the offbearer.  Everything is set.  On site sawing looses contol of all these things.  I have spent one day sawing one log.  This precious walnut log had enough metal in it to build a house.  And then I've been able to saw 4000+ bdft in a long day because the customer had his act together.  In the end, I've come out ahead charging by the hour.  I give my customers an estimate of what I can do in a 7-8 hr day with normal logs and a normal set up.  I try to look at most of my jobs before I take them.  And in the end, most folk are happy.  All my business now is by word of mouth and repeat business.  If you are interested in staying in business over the long haul, let somebody else be the cheapest guy on the block.  
When I sell lumber, I sell by the nominal size.  When folk go to the local hardware store and order a 2x4 they expect to get something 1 1/2x3 1/2.  They pay for a 2x4.  Same with me.  I guess it boils down to region and competition.  
If cows could only tail....

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