Gripes my @$$

[woodbeard]

My favorite around here is the nice Doug fir 2x6 with the pith and two bark edges in the same board.

I have seen that in 2x4s and even 2x3s!   No joke.
Almost like they're taking saplings and feeding them into a four sided planer.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  I  do not know if some of you guys have seen the new mills and what they are breaking down logs with.  But the logs are about 4 inches on the small end and no larger then 15 on the butt.  They are debarked and scaned for metal and chopped to length by a lazer scanner to the best length.  The slabs are taken off by CHIPPER KNIFE heads and it is then rotated 90 degrees and chipped into a cant.  Then it goes through a multiple head resaw and edged to width to see if it will make a 2x4, 6, 8, ect.  Boards rejected as 2X are resawned into 1X  or the next lower width 2X.  The chips go into OSB or fodder for power plants.  They will process 100 to 150 mbdft per 8 hour shift.  No one saws a log in respect to knot placement or quality of lumber.  It is just shucked and dried as quick as possible.  A large log is over 12 on the small end and 20 on the butt.  Most of the time the only time a person sees the boards are when they are graded at speed of 10 seconds per board.
  I would like to have the chipper head set up to process small cedars and save handling the slabs to the hog for chipping.  Just replace the blades on a scragg mill with chipper heads.  It is a good thing I am poor or I would be leathal. ;D
ARKANSAWYER

[woodrat]

I talked to a weyerhaeuser contractor a couple of years ago, who said that they were shooting for no tree bigger than a 14" butt, to match their fancy new automated tree grinders like arky is describing. And from the looks of the logs trucks around here, they're getting pretty close to that goal. Seems pretty ridiculous to take a species of tree that can live for 1000 years and chop it down before it's 30, but I guess if one of your primary products is just a bunch of chips and glue squeezed into sheets, then who cares how nice the wood COULD be. That same summer, that guy was clearing 50 year old plantations to make way for the new fast growing fir seedlings that will only live til age 25. What he was clearing had been planted in 1950 to fir, spruce and port orford cedar. They were piling the PO cedar logs to burn   ,but when I tried to buy them? No way! That kind of insanity and garbage lumber is why I bought a mill in the first place! If only they would just sell me all their "too big" logs at a nice steep discount... ;D Instead, I think most of those are going to japan at a premium, because they apparently know what to do with a nice 24" fir log. Have we lost our minds? ???

[Fla._Deadheader]

  We really got an edikashun today. Went to the big box store for a saw and blades. Happened to walk by a GREEN treated 2 X 12, actually 1½ X 11-3/8's : : :

  It was SYP and inked with the SPIB symbol. It ran clear across the face of the (board)? like it was run under a revolving never-ending die. : :  There were 4 LARGE knots running through the (board) and 3 running along the face of the (board), all within 8" of each other, in the center of the face. The large knots were about 2½" across and the center had fallen out. ??? It would NEVER hold my weight ??? ???

  The grade was #2 SYP?????????  Wish I had the camera :

[DanG]

GP has put in a huge "chip-n-saw" mill just south of me. That's exactly what it is...just a big 4 sided planer.  They are installing an OSB plant, but it isn't operational yet, so they are shipping the chips out by rail, along with most of the lumber. I'm seeing about 25 cars of chips to 3 or 4 of lumber. I think the only purpose of the graders is to keep ink in the stamping machine. >:(

[Fla._Deadheader]

  DanG, never thought of that. I believe ya got it pegged 8)

[Ron Wenrich]

I remember seeing an article on a mill that was at Escanaba, MI.  They were buying softwood pulp and anything that would make a 2 x 3 was run through the mill.  They were also curve sawing, so I doubt they were using the chip and saw method.

They were producing an enormous amount of chips and had to ship 500 miles just to find markets.  The amount of material used was staggering when compared to the normal hardwood mill.  I don't know if they are still in business.

[Frank_Pender]

I met with a log buyer from the big W outfit out here on thrusday.  I am getting ready to thin a portion of the 320 acres ZI am to manage.   ZHe was telling me their number one and primarey customer is Home Depot.  The HD people want uniformity and consistancy.   He was tellin me about a unit of 2 x 4 studs that had two pieces that had slight wane on two pieces. The whole unit was rejected by the store because of the slight wane.  The mill site I had planned on sending the logs to would not accept any log with any sort of defect.  As was mention about size by Woodrat is exactly what was said to me about size for the same company, Weyerhaeuser.   The quote on price was $55 a ton for the better logs.  If I would take the time to sort at the landing and send them a couple of loads they would see if the mill would accept them.   We have decided that I will send them 60 miles away to another mill and not take the time to sort and the landing.  Time for that is toooo costly.

Arky, you got me excited about the stamp issue.  I am going to see if I can find an outfit near by that can make a stamp for me.  

[Jeff]

I hear you guys dissing the lumber at the big box stores repeatedly for the lack of quality and I just gotta think that it must be regional. We have some local smaller lumber companies and it was shameful the lumber they tried to sell you before H.D and Lowe's came along. And the sons of beeches would absolutely not let you sort. There was more then once I took my ticket out, they would load the boards, I would look at them and say that that and that is not usable cause its garbage and they would say "Sorry, we have a no sort policy"  I would say, see ya, give me my blinkin money back, you ain't telling me what I "Have to" buy.

That has changed immensely due to the competition of the big stores. The quality of the local lumber companies has went up dramatically as has their customer service. I try to buy there when I can, but usually because of economics I travel the 20 miles to Home Depot, where I find that I don't have to sort very often because the lumber is really pretty dang good. For an example on the economics, I needed 5 sheets of 1/2 good one side plywood for the kitchen floor for underlayment.I figured I would just buy it up town. 28 bucks a sheet! Called Home Depo and it was 19 dollars. It don't take a weekend sawyer( ;D) to figure out ya drive the 20 miles to save 45 dollars.

[beenthere]

I'm agreeing with Jeff, and have been fortunate to have a local yard that has stuck with buying good quality lumber, even tho they had to suffer loss of some business to the box stores. But I now buy there almost all the time, and instead of sorting at the yard (they will allow it), I buy 20% more than I think I need. When I get it home, I sticker it all, as I know at least one side of the top boards will start drying and shrinking as they are likely 20% MC and in an environment seeking 8-12%. If I don't use all the lumber in the project and its not anything I want to keep, I return it for a refund. Usually it is still straight but not the cream of the crop (grade). In any grade of lumber, there is the high (top) end of the grade and of course, the low end.  For sure, the low end gets all the attention.

These box stores error when they store lumber outside in strapped bundles at 20% MC, and then bring them into a heated store, pop the bands, and watch the surface of boards dry out, seeking probably 8% MC.  I think they would do themselves a lot of good to sticker the wood when they bring it in, thus allowing it to dry equally on both faces, and reducing the number of pieces that are tossed due to warp.

It is indeed pathetic to look at the lumber in these stores, going every which way, mostly because of uneven drying. True, there are things like compression wood that cause the warping too, but most I suspect is uneven drying. It is a loss for the store which is passed on to the customer, as no one in their right mind would buy it warped.

[Tom]

that's the catch22 that gets by  most folks.  There are two ways for paying for lost inventory.  The first is "the cost of business".  That means that the company takes the hit.
The second is " Pass it on".  That means that the customer pays for the bad wood whether he takes it home or not.

I tend to do my business by accepting some things as "the cost of business"  That is dulling blades, fuel, wear and tear, etc.  The customer only sees some of those costs as an encrease in base when I can no longer support them.  

Big Stores that have lost the intimate dealings of a single sale seem to have a tendency to "pass it own".  A small businessman who sees them doing business like that (ie, no sorting) can put a hurtin' on a big box store.  He can make people want to do business with him.  Gotta be able to see past your nose though., :D

[etat]

I agree, since home depot and lowes the local lumber co. in town has built sheds and ALL it's lumber is kept in the dry.  In most cases their prices are either competive, or better than the box stores, and if they ain't, I argue with them, and usually win!  The quality is much better than what others have talked about here.  There is a Marvins in tupelo, load your own lumber, and pick through it as much as you want.  Compared to Union Lumber CO.  their wood is all junk, even if you break open a new bundle that hasn't been picked through yet.  

[SwampDonkey]

I've also seen some crappy plywood sometimes at stores. But this didn't come from the mill. It was all to do with the handling and the cover it was stored under at the depot. I'de have to sort through 3 or 4 , maybe more sheets of birch plywood to find a sheet that wasn't water stained,  whorped and coming unglued. And the softwood lumber was so beet up that it looked like the hired help was using the fork lift for front-end impact testing. Sometimes the lumber at mills will come out looking like utility grade though. All splintered and rough sawn. The machinery is being pushed too hard in my opinion. Instead of trying to saw 200,000 250,000 per shift they should scale her back to 100,000 or 150,000 per shift. The lumber would look alot nicer. I remember the older sawmill here and it was indead better lookin lumber at 100,000 per shift, and alot more people working.

[Ron Scott]

I thought that maybe I was the only one that was particular when buying a board. They usually hate to see me coming as the more I have to sort, the more they have to re-pile. One usually likes to have a "sound and somewhat staight board" if they are calling it lumber. I usually tell them that what they are calling lumber doesn't even make good firewood.

I know that the logs we harvest are much better than that.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron:

Yup I know they are good logs we sent off that hardwod lot with the huge  veneer red spruce. If you truck them up to the sawmill, they can't saw them, they send them over to their Maine veneer plant. We should have gotten $1000/mfbm USD for the 18 inch + topped ones and $700/mfbm USD for the 14 inch toppers. But, couldn't seem to get them there and they went to the mill here....man what a loss at $380/mfbm CND. I still couldn't figure out why we couldn't get them there. There was the odd one with wind cracks, I'll have to say. I don't seem to see that in white pine here. Odd  :  
I picked quite a few seed that year in September from the tops as did another group for Forestry Canada. The spruce were taller than the hardwood, but not exceptional, they tapered like Hemlock.
Ron I seen some nice veneer red spruce in Va (Jefferson National) and in the Smokies, there must be some wing dingers over your way. The ones I seen were in parks, but there has to be some on private. The ones we cut where on a community watershed, where we had restricted access to select harvest. Every tree was marked and trails ribboned. The red spruce regeneration was thick on that shaly ground, too dry for balsam fir. But their was huge 18-30 inch fir and white spruce in the deep gullies, which we couldn't touch. We could reach the odd fir off the roads and I was surprised they were sound as a nut and not culverts. As they say, everything is big on the Tobique.

[Ron Wenrich]

My granddad was a cabinetmaker.  He went to one of the chain type stores before HD and Lowe's come along.  He was in his 90s by this time.

He knew lumber, and what he could use and what he couldn't.  He spent several hours going through their lumber and walked away with a few boards that he needed for his project.

The manager talked to my cousin, who drove him to the store.  He asked if he bought much lumber.  Not too much, so the manager asked that she take him someplace else the next time.  That store's no longer in business.

Our local building supply has been in busines for well over 75 years.  You can go there and pick to your hearts content.  They also sell a higher quality product at a lower price than the chains.  That's where most of the contractors go.  

[SwampDonkey]

Ron W:

Your grandpa did just right. It seemed there was once a time the hardware store had all you needed, now I have to order from a catelog to get all what I need for small hardware on wood projects. Otherwise, I'de be travelling all over the country to find stuff and never get it all. I order bulk screws for 1/10 the price the locals want. I was to Kent Home, similar to Lowes here in NB and they had a bin of head bolts each one marked for $1.74 and I can get them bulk for 0.25 each. I said you have to bring your prices down alot more than that. He gave me the same old spill about overhead, I guess he didn't think my supplier has overhead either. I walked away. All I go there now for is my plywood. I don't buy lumber there because if you figure out their board footage, there getting $10,000 a thousand  :D  :D. I can buy fresh lumber for $0.50/foot right off the end of the sawmill and dry it locally for $0.80/foot. Way cheaper by a huge magnitude. They wouldn't have the problem of overhead if there prices were not out of this world. I can get all the white ash I want, all kilned from the local flooring mill, $0.80/foot. Plus I already have a barnful of wood of umteen species from the woodlot to work down through. Can get all the cedar I want 1 mile up the road all milled. I like to line stuff with cedar....sniff sniff...nice smell  

regards

[Frank_Pender]

Comments on softwood lumber standard sought
   I am taking this from a publication I just recieved in the mail, today.    The publication  is called Forest Products Equiiment.  The artical I am refering to is on mage 34 under the heading of "News".  "The National Indstitute of Standards and Technology is seeking public omment on Voluntary Product Standard (PS) 20-99 is available at http://tx.nist.gov/docvps.  Comments, suppoorted by data, views or arguments, should be submitted toNIST by March 31, 2004.  They should be sent to Joanne Overman, Standards Coordination and Conformity     Group, Standards Services Division, NIST, 100 Bureau  Drive, MS 2150, Gaithersburg, MD, 20899-2150.  Electronic comments can be sent to joanne,overman@nist.gov.


  Here is our chance to voice a concern about just the big boys grading their lumber and excluding the little guy from taking part in their  lumber game.