I want to build a table

[Brad_bb]

I need a side table for my home office.  Never made a table, but since I cannot find the size and style I need, I guess I'll have to make it(like I need another project!).   It needs to be 72"LX24"DX29.5"H.  The feet/legs must be set back 3.25" from the outer edge of the table top to clear the floor heat register.  I saw this table at Crate &Barrel that inspires what I want. 


Although this table is European Oak, It looks like Black Walnut, which is what I want.  I want each side to be live edge with about 1" of sapwood.  The top can be a glue up. 
I don't have a jointer.  I have a Dewalt planer and a Unisaw.  Should I use hand planes to joint the boards?  Should I use dowels when gluing up?  Should I use a spine down the center underside of the table, and two across for the legs?  How should I attach them to the top?  Any recommendation for leg design?  I was thinking Roman style- two legs coming down for each side with a single foot under those legs on each side.

[Dodgy Loner]

I'll tackle your first question: If you don't have a jointer, then yes, you will need to joint the boards with your hand planes. That's exactly what I do with all of the lumber that goes into my furniture: joint one face with handplanes, then thickness with the planer, then joint one edge with a hand plane, then true the opposite edge with the table saw.

[SwampDonkey]

If it were me, and I was going to have individual legs on the corners, I would use a 3 or 4" wide apron around it and attach the top with table top mounting clamps by grooving three of the apron rails for wood movement. Both apron rails where the grain orientation to the top is 90 degrees would get grooves 3/8" offset from the top edge and on a side where the apron rail is parallel to the top grain, same.



With a table that long a rail in the middle with 90 degree orientation to the top, grooved 3/8" offset for the top clamps also, to help keep it flat.  This would not be needed if your boards where 24" instead of the 72" lengths. The grooved aprons on the 72" apron boards would keep it flat. You could end but the apron rails into legs squared at the top and make two matched 90 degree groves in the aprons with the table saw for a brace block that you would drill a hole through into the leg corners for a holding screw.





Or get steel leg braces and groove narrow slits with the table saw across the aprons for the braces.



In this example I had some fancy hips to attach so the leg is attached on the lower edge of the apron with a screw hole bored up through the hips into the apron wood for extra support along with the table clamps.


Another other approach is to use tenons on the aprons that come in and but one another inside the legs on a 45. And attach with the clamps to the top. My way only requires a table saw to make a single pass for each cut, the 45's and the 3/8" offset grooves. I would use wider brace blocks for a taller table like yours for more holding wood. Although I used three smaller screws into the legs, a heavy screw for table legs would do fine. And flatten a corner of the legs if you use a steel brace for leg attachment.

Just some thoughts.

[WDH]

Brad,

That design looks like it would be unstable or wobbly. 

I would also attach the top using the table top fasteners that fit in a groove on the apron or leg and screw into the top. 

[jamesamd]

Have You checked out? What is available at IKEA?
Jim

[WDH]

There needs to be some kind of way to brace it that looks nice and doesn't detract from the simple design. 

[Magicman]

Here are a couple of pictures of a table in Burch Run, Mi. that I took on the way to the Pig Roast.  I hate that I didn't take a picture of the leg/table attachment, but it was like the two center illustrations that SD showed above.


 


 


 
I will probably build something similar to this for the Cabin Addition, 

[WDH]

Looks like it is made of good old pine.

[Magicman]

What really caught my eye was that the board ends looked intentionally sawed from the top side and splintered.  The stain then highlighted it.  Yes it was pine.

[Brad_bb]

Thanks for the responses.  Here's a pic of a table that is not wood, but this is the leg style I was talking about- two verticals and one horizontal foot.


I've got to find the material yet.  I'm wondering how this style would attach.  Also I'm also guessing that I'd need a horizontal foot where the verticals meet the table top?  How would you traditionally attach the legs?

[WDH]

With some corner block bracing where the top meets the legs on the underside, I bet that will be fine, and that leaves a lot of leg room/working space under the table.

[Magicman]

I would simply bring the skirt in closer and still attach the legs like SD's illustration above, but I would use hanger bolts to actually attach the legs instead of screws.  That is such a strong method that can be easily broken down or tightened,

[sealark37]

I just finished a large cherry table.  I gave up on the joiner.  I did it all on the table saw.  Used #20 biscuits and Titebond glue for the top slab.  The steel clips do a splendid job attaching the top to the skirt.  If you don't use a skirt for your table, you need some serious method to prevent racking of the legs.  Start now on experimenting for the desired finish.  Find a wide-belt sander you can use to finish sand the top.  It's too easy and leaves a beautiful, smooth, flat surface.  Take your time, and spend twice as much time thinking as you do cutting.  Regards, Clark

[wheelinguy]

What about a board running the length of the underside of the table with the legs mortised in and some small angle braces to prevent racking.  You could make it like a sub! assembly and the just mount the leg assembly to the top with as many screws as it takes to make you feel comfortable and then plug all the holes of course.

[Axe Handle Hound]

How about something like this?  I built this as a single leg per end trestle table, but it could easily be adapted to a two leg version.  If you look at the end view you'll see 2 walnut plugs.  Underneath these are hex bolts that pass through the leg assembly and daylight into a mortice in the stretcher that runs parallel to the length of the table.  The stretcher is morticed into the leg assemblies, but not glued.  I wanted this to be portable so the entire thing can be broken down into its individual parts.  Once the bolts are cranked tight the table is very sturdy.       




  

  

  

 

[Ernie]

Axe Handle Hound, that is one beautiful table.  What did you use for the finish?

[Axe Handle Hound]

Axe Handle Hound, that is one beautiful table.  What did you use for the finish?

Thanks Ernie.   It's quartersawn white oak finished with a clear stain, two coats of Waterlox Original Sealer, and two coats of Waterlox Marine Finish.  I got the Waterlox for free from someone so I tried it and I absolutely love the Original Sealer.  The Marine finish is a bit soft and glossy for my tastes, but the table is several years old now and still looks great so the durability is pretty good. 

(Brad- sorry, don't mean to derail your thread.)

[WDH]

It can't get any roomier under the table than that, axe handle.  That looks great, love the q-sawn white oak, too.  Thanks for sharing.

[Magicman]

That is a beautiful table and very crafty workmanship.   

[Brad_bb]

Axe, thanks for the pics- worth a thousand words.  That is similar to how I want to build mine.  I'll probably skip the cleat and screw the top brace into the top.

[Axe Handle Hound]

Thanks for all the compliments guys. 

Brad, if you do skip the cleat and screw the brace to the top make sure you make an elongated or oversize hole for the screw in the brace.  The top on my table is about 36" wide and even though it's quartersawn it still expands/contracts a good 1/4" or more with the seasons.  If you don't allow the top to slide on the braces it will almost definitely split or possibly even bow your braces and you'll end up with a cupped top. 

[Hilltop366]

So why don't you making a Timber frame table Brad?

I was thinking that a leg design like in your picture in reply #10 would look nice with either a small arched timber (could be hollowed out to make it lighter and help prevent twisting and checking) or two arched boards that went from leg to leg with some sturdy knock down hardware (this sort of thing http://www.leevalley.com/en/hardware/page.aspx?cat=3,43715&p=67659 ) that could be hidden with wood plugs. The drawback to this is it does not provide a lot of support to keep the top from cupping, if the top used narrower strips of alternating grain it would be less of a issue.

[Brad_bb]

Hilltop366,
Regarding actual timberframe... well that would be aweful heavy, and I don't intend to live here long term.  So I don't want to have a heavy monstrosity.  If it were my final home, with more space, I could possibly do something fun like that.

I could get fancy, yes, but I need this table more for function now.  In fact I'm almost ready to go quick screw some 2X pine together just cause I need the table space.

I do like the "knock down" fasteners. 

Axe Handle Hound,
Now you've got me thinking about warpage.  My table will be 24 inches wide.  I could use narrower pieces, no problem.  So I'm thinking that I'd have to use a single screw into the top on each side so that the top can expand in either direction, or I'd have to use cleats as you have.  The cleats would allow a growing top to slide somewhat as it grew.

I know this is going to take more time than I want.  Normally you'd have fun making a piece like this, but I need function and have too many irons in the fire at the moment!

[WDH]

Even if you use only one screw on each side of the top, the screw holes need to be bigger than the screw to allow for the expansion and contraction.  This will prevent the top from splitting like Axe Handle said. 

[Axe Handle Hound]

Brad,

In the 4th picture I added in my earlier post you can see I added a cleat across the center of the table to keep the top flat.  The pics below show more detail on that cleat. Specifically, the second picture shows the bottom of that cleat and one of the lag bolts that I used to secure it to the tabletop.  If you look close you'll see that the washer under the head of the lag bolt is much smaller than the hole it sits in.  Likewise, if you look really close on the right side of the washer you should be able to see one end of the elongated hole that I cut for the lag bolt shank.  The other end is underneath the left side of the washer.  When I originally bolted the cleat to the top the lag bolt was centered in the elongated hole.  That's how much the top has moved since I installed it. You could use this same approach on the bottom of your braces and skip the small wooden cleat that I used on my braces.  Using the lags through the bottom of your braces will keep them invisible to everyone unless they're standing on their head beneath the table like I just was.  That's how I'd do it if I had to do it again.   

 


 

[WDH]

Axe Handle,

I use washers, too, with pan head screws. 

[Hilltop366]

I am not sure what the final use for the table will be but if the top does not need to be solid you could make up a top with strips of wood not glued together just screwed to some cleats from underneath (could also be t+g), or for a rustic look nailed from the top with some old fashion style nails, width of strips would depend on the stability of the species of wood used. Making the top removable and using the knock down hardware or lag screws for the legs would make moving the table less of a issue.

[Brad_bb]

Axe Handle Hound,
Yes I agree with that.  using the lags with washers in elongated holes sounds good to me.  I'm thinking similar design to your table without the small wooden cleats. 

The use:  Currently in my home office I have that 24"X72" metal (lightweight aluminum) folding table I showed in a picture earlier.  I have my computer on that.  I need another table of the same dimensions to put at 90 degrees to this one were I'll lay a deskpad for doing paperwork etc.  The office is only about 9'X10'.

[SwampDonkey]

Well constructed table Axe Handle Hound.

[LeeB]

Don't skip the cleat.

[Clam77]

Axe Handle Hound - Beautiful table you've made there.  How are the legs made up- simple M&T with glue or are they also lagged together for the extra strength??

I like the design... simple yet effective, but still tasteful.

[Axe Handle Hound]

Axe Handle Hound - Beautiful table you've made there.  How are the legs made up- simple M&T with glue or are they also lagged together for the extra strength??

I like the design... simple yet effective, but still tasteful.

Thanks Clam!  You're correct that they're M&T.  I believe I made a 1 1/2"W X 1 1/2"L X 3/4"T tenon on the ends of the uprights which fit into corresponding mortices in the horizontal pieces.  With all the glue surface in there I didn't think I'd need any further support so no lag bolts were used.   

[Don_Papenburg]

Brad you need to build a collage table ,  cement block legs and 2x top .  Very quick ,leaves a lot of time to build the good table . And find the big tree that will yeild that one piece top

[jueston]

Brad you need to build a collage table ,  cement block legs and 2x top .  Very quick ,leaves a lot of time to build the good table . And find the big tree that will yeild that one piece top

had a friend who was in college, i slept on his couch a few times, he had a table like that, 2 cinder blocks for each leg and 1-1/8inch top, he was most proud of the gorilla glue that held it togather, if he had 4 guys he could lift it from the corners and the cinder blocks would hold to the bottom of the table, i wouldn't have believed it if he had told me, but he showed me and then said he has moved it to 2 different apartments and the blocks had not come loose yet....

i think it could have been a gorilla glue ad....

[WDH]

I am glad that I don't have to move it  .

[Hilltop366]

Brad you need to build a collage table ,  cement block legs and 2x top .  Very quick ,leaves a lot of time to build the good table . And find the big tree that will yeild that one piece top

Now if you use the plastic milk crates instead of the blocks it's much lighter, and if you put the crates on their side you can put your albums in them!

[WDH]

Yeah, and the college kids would ask, "What is an album?"   

[Hilltop366]

You might be surprised to know that vinyl is back in in some places, some artist are releasing their music on multiple formats including LP.

I'm not sure if this is helping Brad with his table design.

[Brad_bb]

Oh, I got what I needed quite a few posts ago.  I don't mind a wise-acher on FF.  I am one too.  Now I just need to find the wood.

[WDH]

Where will you get the albums  ???  ;D.

[Brad_bb]

A new woodworking buddy invited me to go to a new wood supplier on Saturday (about an hour and a half away) with him.  From the website, they have all species, and do custom millwork.  I just may have them glue up the top and sand it for me since they have the wide sander.  I called and they do have live edge black walnut.  Is that what they call rift sawn?

[WDH]

It could be.  It could also be flatsawn or quarter sawn, depending on where in the tree the board came from.  The fact that it has a live edge does not make it rift sawn.

[Brad_bb]

Was watching Roy Underhill today and it was the show about expantion and contraction and hydroscopic nature of wood. 

He said something that got me thinking...
My table top glue up, the board don't have to be quarter sawn do they?  I mean, I can use flat sawn pieces so long as I alternate the ring direction correct?

By the way, our trip to the wood supplier got postponed until next Saturday becuase they'll be doing some demos my friend wants to see.
Thanks,
Brad

[Ianab]

Q-Sawn material moves less with changes in moisture, but this doesn't mean you can't use flat sawn, you just have to allow for it to move slightly more.

Alternating the growth rings is to do with the wood cupping with changes in moisture. If the growth rings are all the same way then the whole top could cup slightly. But if you alternate them, and cupping will show as slight 'corrugations" in the top. Which is going to be more of a problem?

Some suggest it doesn't really matter.

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Depends on how the top is secured. Done right it don't matter how it's sawed and it won't cup. My tops could be either quarter or flat sawn and they aren't cupping. ;) It will more likely cup sitting on the side in the shop while your preparing the carcass. Once attached and done right, nope. ;)

[WDH]

Generally, I keep the top in the clamps and stored so that air can circulate freely on all sides of the top.  Then, I attach it.  It is best to make the top at the very last so that you can sand and install it when the glue is dry.  Leaving a wide top sitting around is asking for trouble.  The worst thing that you can do is make the top first (which we always want to do because it is the most fun) and lay it down somewhere with only one surface exposed to the air for weeks or months  .  This is a recipe for cupping.

[Axe Handle Hound]

Understanding wood movement is the critical key to enjoyable woodworking.  Ian and SD are exactly correct, if done right the top should remain flat.  If done wrong you'll have a nice start on a canoe. I used quartersawn boards for my table and added the central cleat with lag bolts and the small cleats on the leg assemblies for additional insurance against cupping seeing as how I do not air condition my house and the seasonal humidity swings are pretty big.  And WDH is exactly right, try to have your leg assemblies ready and waiting.   Leaving a wide glue up laying around is just asking for a visit from our old friend Frustration.  I've known people who laid table tops flat on the garage floor for a few days before getting to them.  Really, really bad idea. 

[Dodgy Loner]

My table top glue up, the board don't have to be quarter sawn do they?  I mean, I can use flat sawn pieces so long as I alternate the ring direction correct?

Don't go out of your way to alternate the grain. Put the prettiest side on top. If the grain happens to be alternating, that's fine, but it's also fine if it's all running the same direction.

[beenthere]

Dodgy
That isn't the usual response from a woodworker (to ignore the grain alternating).

Are you also suggesting that allowing the cup to accumulate won't present a problem with the top?

Of course much depends on the flatness of the grain in the glued boards, the species, strip widths, and the equalibrium moisture content before and after glue-up.

[SwampDonkey]

I do as Dodgey does. I've never seen a top warp yet, once it's attached properly.

[Ianab]

Are you also suggesting that allowing the cup to accumulate won't present a problem with the top?

It shouldn't be great as long as both sides of the top are finished in a similar way. You don't need to get a perfect finish on the underside, but make sure it gets a couple of coats of varnish. That keeps both sides changing in moisture in a similar way. The cupping from that is only temporary, but can be quite extreme if the weather changes.

Also, even cupping over the whole top can be controlled by the apron that's supporting the table. (Sliding tabs, slotted screws etc) Alternating cupping of each board gives smaller movement, but a washboard effect that you may be able to see or feel, but can't be controlled.

I glued up a top out of eucalyptus for a little bedside cabinet, and left it leaning against the shed door (inside). Overnight it rained and some water seeped under the door, never reached the piece, but the humidity made it cup about 2" over a 20" wide piece. I look at it and say "Crud, what do I do now?"  I turned it around and leant the other side against the door.  Next day it was straight again, the moisture had evened out. So the changes can be that fast in unfinished wood. Likewise if you finish one side, and not the other, the unfinished side can move that fast, while moisture transfer on the finished side may be 10X slower.

Ian

[WDH]

I used to alternate the growth ring pattern (bark side up, bark side down), but I quit doing that and started just picking and matching the best faces.  I have not had any issues, mostly, like SD said, because of proper attachment at the proper time. 

[Ironwood]

Putting the same finish (type and number of coats) on each side is technically, creating a balanced "moisture exclusivity". I dont get to carried away with the grain direction, although my tops are 1.5"-2" and pretty heavy. I use heavy walled steel box tube recessed in the underside for dimensional stability.

One inch stock is pretty reactionary, and can move a good bit especially if not completely dry. Even if your permanent cleats arent done use some "waste" ones until yours are done. The grain vertically is /alot stronger than laid flat. So, orient your cleat grain accordingly.

I have done some REALLY big glue ups and used vertically grained (quarter sawn), but the grain is fairly unimpressive if it isnt something that will show fleck/ray (white oak) or curly (maple etc,...).



Also, using threaded inserts instead of simple screws will create a TON more holding power if it DOES want move. The circumference of the insert has a multiplying effect due it's surface area in contact with the wood.


Ironwood