Deutz Diesel Issue

[Corley5]

The 4 cyl Deutz in my C4 forwarder started smoking a few days ago.  The smoke is blue/white to black and smells of raw fuel.  It's not using or gaining oil in the crankcase.  It is low on power and misses now and then but not constantly.  Engine oil pressure is a constant 75lbs.  Running the loader with the throttle set it runs fine, no smoke, no miss.  It idles fine and starts good as it always has.  The problem manifests itself when the machine is moving with the engine load changing.  It almost seems like it's loading up on fuel  ???  I changed the fuel filters a few weeks ago before the problem started and always run clean fuel.  My transfer tank has a filter on it and I use Sea Foam on a regular basis.  Air filter is fine too.  I'm thinking it may be a bad injector  ???  Hopefully not the injector pump.  Any ideas  ???

[Jeff]

I was going to say pump. :-\

[Corley5]

I really hope it's not the pump   

[mad murdock]

Sounds like a fuel issue fer sure. Got a laser temp gun thingy? Check the exhaust manifold on all 4 and see of you got a cold  cyl. Start there. Hope you get it figgered.

[Gary_C]

Does sound like the pump. Could be the governor in the pump is malfunctioning. What kind of injection pump does it have?

[isawlogs]

  I would put a quart of transmission fluid in the fuel tank and run it through.  Sounds like the pump to me too.   :-\

[Corley5]

  I do have one of those laser temp things  ;D  Dee got it for me for Christmas  8) 8)  I'll try that and see what comes up.  I'll have to look and see what brand the pump is.  I haven't paid any attention, haven't had to  :-\   but I would bet that it's a Bosch.
  It's 2.8 degrees right now.  I'm gonna wait for it to warm up a bit before venturing out.  I'm glad I haven't sold the old C-5 cable machine.  Looks like it's gonna see some service 

[kiko]

A blown fire ring will cause the blue smoke. A blown fire ring will often sound like an exhaust leak and create low compression on that cly resulting in the smoke.   

[LaserZX]

trans fluid is fine but you would be better to put in a quart of 2 cycle oil in the fuel instead both are fine

  I would put a quart of transmission fluid in the fuel tank and run it through.  Sounds like the pump to me too.   :-\

[Corley5]

What will the addition of mix or tranny fluid do  ???

[Gary_C]

What will the addition of mix or tranny fluid do  ???

Provide some lubrication to the injection system parts, todays diesel fuel is considered very dry. The addition of biodiesel will also help, but not in this cold weather as it must be heated to disperse through the fuel.

From what little I know about Duetz engines, it looks like they have a direct injection pump with a mechanical governor included. I suspect the governor is sticking and that is a somewhat common problem in some injection pumps.

Check out this web site for parts. http://deutzpartsdirect.com/ 

[SPIKER]

[/quote]

What will the addition of mix or tranny fluid do  ???

What will the addition of mix or tranny fluid do  ???

Provide some lubrication to the injection system parts, todays diesel fuel is considered very dry. The addition of biodiesel will also help, but not in this cold weather as it must be heated to disperse through the fuel.

From what little I know about Duetz engines, it looks like they have a direct injection pump with a mechanical governor included. I suspect the governor is sticking and that is a somewhat common problem in some injection pumps.

Check out this web site for parts. http://deutzpartsdirect.com/ 

beat me to it...   yes will help lube up all of the injection system also free & remove deposits in the pup system.   seem to think about it about time for a little in my tractor ;)
Mark

[Side loader]

  I would put a quart of transmission fluid in the fuel tank and run it through
My A-1 mechanic partner says dextron 2 or equilivant.  That or better.  A dutez is a tough motor.

[treefarmer87]

i have never heard of that ??? does it help? makes sense though

[OntarioAl]

Corley5
Diesel engines built before the days of ultra low sulfur fuel used the fuel to keep the injection pump and injectors lubricated.
The new fuel does not provide the lubrication necessary so you must regularly supplement your fuel with a lubricant, apparently the process that removes the sulfur "drys" out the fuel.
When I was running several "Detroits"  (6V92,453,353,253) the local Detroit Dealer's shop foreman told me to dump a quart  of  auto transmission fluid in my tanks once a month told me it cleans and lubricates the injectors. This was when the fuel still had lubrication qualities. I now add about 1 quart of auto transmission fluid to 20 (Can Gallons) for my 353 Detroit, and 91 Jetta turbo diesel
Hope this helps
Al

[snowstorm]

The 4 cyl Deutz in my C4 forwarder started smoking a few days ago.  The smoke is blue/white to black and smells of raw fuel.  It's not using or gaining oil in the crankcase.  It is low on power and misses now and then but not constantly.  Engine oil pressure is a constant 75lbs.  Running the loader with the throttle set it runs fine, no smoke, no miss.  It idles fine and starts good as it always has.  The problem manifests itself when the machine is moving with the engine load changing.  It almost seems like it's loading up on fuel  ???  I changed the fuel filters a few weeks ago before the problem started and always run clean fuel.  My transfer tank has a filter on it and I use Sea Foam on a regular basis.  Air filter is fine too.  I'm thinking it may be a bad injector  ???  Hopefully not the injector pump.  Any ideas  ???

white or gray smoke is incomplete combustion often times low compression broken rings fire ring. also an injector over fueling can wash the cylinders down  no oil flim on the rings not as much compression. you could pull the injectors and have them tested for spray  and drip. with your finger on an injection line you can feel the fuel pulse. look at exhaust manifold is it wet around any one cylinder? start it check exhaust temp at each cyl.if one is cold there is a reason for it. if you think its a bad injector you can pull it reconect the line turn the motor over with the fuel stop pulled so it wont start watch the spray paten if it squirts or drips  it shouldnt

[lumberjack48]

Scored injectors from this water downed dry fuel, fuel is to clean now, you older guys remember what NB 2 diesel looked like and smelt like, it was nasty stuff.
20 yrs ago i added oil to the fuel in my Detroit, i like to see a Little smoke out of the pipe.

[Corley5]

  I moved the machine back to a job with a barn yesterday  ;) and paid more attention to what it does.  Standing still I can throttle almost all the way up before it starts to miss and smoke.  Otherwise it seems to run fine.  When the machine is moving anytime it calls for more fuel it belches smoke.  I checked the temps on the exhaust manifold and number three is about 20 degrees colder than one and two which are close and #4 is hotter than one and two by about twenty degrees.  No signs of wetness at #3 to indicate raw fuel.
  I dumped a quart of ATF in the fuel this morning and ran it loading the firewood processor for about three hours and plan to run it more  tomorrow to see if it makes any difference.  If not I'll pull it in the barn and start with the injectors    I can't imagine raw fuel washing down the cylinder walls and rings is doing it any good   

[saltydog]

I would think injecters.deutz have a return line to put extra fuel back in the tank. when i rebuilt mine(in the woods)i missed hooking it back up actually didnt run bad just extra smoke.i sure would try injecters before a pump.cheaper and easy.i miss my deutz over 20,000 hrs before first rebuild. awsome engines.

[UN Hooker]

  I would start by checking the fuel line for a air leak between the tank and lift pump, especially the rubber one over the center pin. If that's OK, then check the pressure going into the injection pump under load. If its low, your lift pump may be going bad.
         UN

[OntarioAl]

Corley5
Deutz are great engines I pearsonally have limmited experience with them but I  did a goggle search and this web site may be of some help.
http://www.filestube.com/d/deutz+engine+manuals
I hope this helps
Al

[Corley5]

  I pulled the injectors this afternoon and took them in to have them cleaned and patterned/tested.  They all had some carbon buildup and #3 seemed a bit damp.  I might have them back by the end of week but more likely the 1st part of next week.
  I did check for leaks in the fuel and didn't find any visible so I sprayed them with ether with the engine running.  No change in the way the engine ran  ;D   I think I'm good there.  Hopefully just having the injectors serviced fixes the problem.

[Doppelganger]

You might want to give a compression test and check the tappet settings if there is nothing seriously wrong with the injector.  Tight tappets will give a miss at higher PRM's.

Check cylinder studs are tighten to the correct preasure.

[Corley5]

I want to check the compression before I put the injectors back in if I can find an adapter.  I've got a Sun tester and adapter for a range of engines but Deutz isn't one of them.  I should have compared the injectors to my adapter before I sent them out  :-\ :  There's a chance it'll work but I don't want to wait for the injectors to come back and then find out it won't   I called Sun but they only list one for Deutz engines with glow plugs and their diesel expert just retired so they couldn't tell me if mine will work :   The Deutz adapter they show threads into the glow plug hole and my engine doesn't have glow plugs. 

[kiko]

If you can come up with an old injector you can take it apart and gut it then weld or braze a fitting on that fits your compression guage. If you can't find an injector to make a compression adaptor you can reinstall the injectors. If the smoke remains you can break the injector lines off one at a time ( with it running  and secured so the machine does not try to move around) untill you find which one clears the smoke off. At this point you know which cly it is and you will likely find the fire ring to be cracked resulting in the low compression. As you break the injection lines off the fuel should "bounce" up 6 to 8 inches, if the fuel just runs out around the nut you could have fuel pump issues( unlikely though as a fuel pump issue seldom causes the white blue smoke you speak of). I have seen this issue many times on a duetz. Because it is air cooled it is has a fire ring rather than a head gasket. Is this engine a FL912? As much as you said you have run it with it smoking a piston/ring problem would likely have  already developed into a piston slap. Also, a broken fire ring will sometimes sound like an exhaust leak.

[Bandmill Bandit]

does sound like a possible pump issue but injector nozzels can do the same thing as you are describing and in some of the older Deutz engines slobering injectors was not all that uncommon.

I would pop the injectors lines first and check fuel delivery pressure (if in spec) then pop the injectors get them reconditioned.

If pressure is off well then it recon for pump and injectors.

Kiko goes into more detail and deeper and he is on the money if you need to go further but id start with looking for a slobbery injector and go from there.
 

[Corley5]

  I must of had glow plugs on mind when I made the post earlier in the day.  It's the injectors I sent out to be tested.  It doesn't have glow plugs    I don't hear anything that sounds like an exhaust leak.  I'm still hoping it's an injector 
  It's an F4L912.  The clock shows around 5,300 hours.  Thanks for all the advice  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Bandmill Bandit]

at 5300 hours I will pretty much bet on injectors. Never owned a deutz that went past 6000 hrs without recon on injectors. I owned 2 of them and my cousin owned 3 of them. Injectors came out for recon between 4500 and 5000 ish hours.

[swampbuggy]

Here are a couple of things to look at from my experience.
1. There is a lift pump (fuel pump) on the side of the injector pump that has a pre-screen in the top of it. Take out the small bolt, 8mm wrench I think, and see it it os clogged. Cleans out easy.
2. This fuel injection pump may not have an oil feed from the engine so the governor weights could be sticking. On the rear of the pump is an allen head plug and about 3/4 of the way down is a bleed plug. It is possible that diesel fuel has washed into this cavity and it needs to be flushed. The drain/bleed plug is NOT the one secured with the anti tamper wire. I think its a 10mm and when opened you can see a hole in it. Open the bleeder, take the top plug out, and flush with engine oil until it flows clean and slows down. Close the bleeder and do not add any more oil. Put the cap on and run it for a while to see if the rack in the injection pump frees up.
3. 4 cyl engines usually don't have an aneroid on them because they don't have a turbo. If yours does have a turbo it could be a bad or plugged tube from the turbo to the pump ( it won't sense the need for more fuel and the pump will not go to full throttle) Let us know if its a turbo model

Thats all I can remember on those engines right now. I'll sleep on it...

If your getting the injector tips cleaned and pop tested make sure you bleed the pump to injector line..They will not self bleed very well.

Good luck.

Swamp

[swampbuggy]

I want to check the compression before I put the injectors back in if I can find an adapter. 

The Cummins b series injectors are very similar and if you can find the adapter for one of them it should work.

[timh]

start with simple things check the fuel filter

[Corley5]

My injectors came back today.  According to the shop they were shot.  They've been reconditioned with new tips.  Gonna put them in tomorrow.  Hope it does solve the problem 

[beenthere]

Will keep our fingers crossed.

[Reddog]

Will keep our fingers crossed.

+1

[Corley5]

  Injectors installed and machine running better than ever but the problem was not the injectors.  Having them reconditioned did make it run better and eliminated the light blue smoke that it's always produced.  It never has used engine oil but smoked just bit.  That problem is solved  8) 8) 8)
  I started putting it back together late yesterday afternoon and ran out of patience so it was time to go home  ;D  Finished it up this morning.  Bled it and it fired up during the process  8) 8)  Sounded good until we revved it up and it did the same DanGed thing    :'( :( :'( :(   So now what  ???  As I was standing there thinking about injector pump repair, fire rings etc. Bob, one of the guys that works for me, pulled out the air filter.  Now I checked the air filter right at the beginning of this whole affair after talking to my neighbor who has an 83 year lifetime experience with iron.  First thing he told me was to check the air filter.  I did, pulled it out, tapped it out, it wasn't bad by any means and wasn't that old.  However I didn't pull the 2ndary filter  :  smiley_dunce smiley_dunce  Not that it would have made any difference with the engine shut off.  Even today it looked fine but we noticed a difference in the way the engine ran as soon as it was removed and with it removed the engine ran fine at full throttle.  No smoke no miss.  We put the primary back in and left the final out and it still ran fine.  A trip to Carquest for two new filters and it's fixed :   I still don't understand how a secondary filter can go bad without the primary getting plugged but it happened.  I guess it's a cumulative process    I've had the machine almost two years and have not changed that filter so I have no idea how old it is but it didn't appear unserviceable today.  It's in the trash can at Carquest.  My experience with farm tractors in ultra dusty conditions we changed the primaries when they needed it and the secondaries were changed at the beginning of the season in the spring and before late summer tillage began in August.  I should have changed this one when I got the machine  :  A learning experience for sure but it still seems odd that it went bad all at once ???
  So I've got reconditioned injectors, new air filters, it's running great and the light blue smoke is gone.  Having the injectors done wasn't a bad thing  8)

[kiko]

Good news for you. I have missed the inner filter as well.

[ScottAR]

Good news.   We only have one machine with a secondary, the manual says change secondary every other change of the primary.   I try to follow unless I can't remember when I changed it.   :  If this occurs, I change it anyway.  If I was smarter, I'd write the date on the end of the filter. 

[Bandmill Bandit]

i use a red and black sharpie and just put and X on the end of both. If they have one black X when you pull the primary to change it then you just change the primary and it goes in with a red X. The secondary gets a second X with the red marker beside the black one. next change you get a double X when you pull the primary so you know you change em both.
has worked good fro me.