Help/advice in choosing a 3pt grapple for small time tractor logging?

Piston · February 02, 2012, 04:54:38 AM

QuoteI don't think damaging trees will be much of a problem. He is clearing the land not doing a select cut.

That's correct. I will not be skidding the logs through tight skid trails, or dropping individual trees in the middle of many others as I would with a select cut. For those types of operations I would be looking for a winch, however, if I was planning on milling those logs, I wouldn't use a winch either, I would use my log arch. As Jim stated, I don't want a bunch of mud/dirt on my logs that I will be milling, I'll go through a lot of blades that way.
So for the logs that I'll want to mill, I'll carry them in my FEL grapple, and if they're too big, I'll pick them up with my log arch. I don't think there is a log on the property that I won't be able to carry in my FEL, a full tree, yes, but a single log, no.

This picture is very typical of the size trees I will be clearing. These trees were knocked over with my tractor, and picked up whole with the grapple, and piled here. I did this just to see how tough it would be when I clear the land, I wanted to get a taste of what I would be up against.

Here is a picture of how I will carry sawlogs to where I will stack them. Note that none of the sawlogs I will get off this property are going to be this large.

Here is another option for the smaller trees. ;D

I can do a lot with the FEL grapple alone, and honestly, as I said earlier, I don't NEED a rear grapple. ;D

Now that I see the prices are fairly high for the amount I will use it for, I am considering building one.

I think the skid is an excellent idea for someone who will be skidding logs long distances, and especially through tight trails.

Piston · February 02, 2012, 04:55:42 AM

Quote from: customsawyer on February 01, 2012, 08:08:06 PM
I have never used a grapple but a customer of mine had one ( don't know the brand) but he ended up mounting shocks on each side as this allowed the tractor to turn better.

I like that idea. That's the one thing I really like about the Valby type, is the hinge close in to the tractor.

Piston · February 02, 2012, 06:05:51 AM

Quote from: timbuck2 on February 01, 2012, 07:40:48 PM
After 30+ years of doing exactly what you describe i would offer this advice. Get yourself a good winch along the lines of a Farmi 350 whatever # they are now, (that is the right size for your tractor) You can hook up and pull alot faster and pick trees out of the keepers. Also do you have any uphill pull and do you expect to work this lot in the winter on frozen ground? Grapple can't drop A hitch and go up over ice or uphill. I've sreiously considered a grapple but unless you are packing 65 to 75 hp or more I fail to see the advantage, nothing against the set-up and the guy with the Iron-Oak looks great, if you are chipping there is an advantage, or just clearing house lots, ok. ...... Good Luck and feel free to ask up.

Timbuck,
I value your advice and opinions. I do think a winch would work great as well, and I do want to get one someday. I think the grapple would work great short term, and when I'm done with the lot clearing I could sell it and buy a winch.
I've been keeping my eyes peeled on craigslist for a used one ;) If I could find a good deal on one I will jump on it.
I'm mostly going to be using the rear grapple just for clearing this house lot. After that who knows, it will depend on how good it works for my specific needs.

Piston · February 02, 2012, 06:52:33 AM

I'm learning a lot from all your posts. I'll give you some quick history of my land.

My grandfather bought the land back in '62. I love the guy to death, but he doesn't know a thing about the woods. He bought it from his violin teacher. He grew up in the city and his passion in life is music. He moved up to the woods of NH not because he wanted some land to take care of and call his own, but because he wanted a peaceful place where him and his music friends could play their classical musical instruments. He wanted to play his violin outside on the lawn and not hear a single car drive by. When he bought the place, there was 3 other homes between his house, and town. The roads were all dirt and too muddy to pass in the spring time. Since then of course times have changed, the roads (for the most part) have been paved, and a whole lot more homes have been built in the area.
Not knowing about forestry or anything related, he was approached by a logger to log off his land, and put some money in his pocket. Not knowing any better, he didn't check around, he just took the guys word for it. This was back sometime in the '70s. The logger brought in his equipment and logged his land, clearcutting it for the most part, leaving a mess.
He sold off the logs, loaded up his equipment, and told my grandfather he would send him a check for the logs after he got paid......
He was never heard from again, my grandfather never saw a dime from the harvest, his land was left a mess, and he realized the mistake he just made by making a handshake deal. This still angers the heck out of me just thinking about it. >:(

Since he didn't know about forestry or anything related, he never touched any of the land, aside from his one acre or so that he keeps mowed. Whatever sprouted out of the ground after logging, is what grew and stayed. A lot of the pines that are there now are from old abandoned fields, and they took over. The soil isn't all that rich and the trees were always tightly packed together. The crowns of the trees are very narrow and not very healthy looking.
I'm not sure if this is why the trees are so small after 40yrs or so, or if it has to do more with the soil, the clearcut, or a combination of many things.

I don't have one person in my family that has ever done any type of logging, milling, timber framing or anything, so I was never able to learn from them. My father is the only person in my family that comes close, he ran heavy equipment for years when he was younger, however not in the forest or anything like that.
I've learned almost everything I know from either this forum, or online, or reading many many books, and talking with anyone I meet that has similar interests, and at this point, I have a decent amount of experience under my belt....considering the lack of opportunity I had to learn it ;D

It is for that reason that all I know is what I read, and experience on my own. I appreciate all the tips and advice that you guys are giving me! ;D

One reason I am leaning towards a grapple for this project, is because I think it looks like 'fun' to operate. I enjoy being in the woods and clearing the land. I like hydraulics, I like having the right tools for the job, and I like using them. ;D
Unlike most of you, this is just a hobby of mine, but I like to think my hobby saves me money over having someone else do it. I've never made any money using my tractor or other equipment, maybe I should start trying to do that to justify all the money I have into it :D

timbuck2 · February 02, 2012, 08:04:57 AM

@ thecfarm, Ya that was the larger Norse winch, instead of one set of chain drive gears it had two, step down and step down again, so to speak. Had it on a Ford 6610 4x4, but it had a real fancy cab, which was a mistake, the rear window exploded and sounded like a shotgun went off. I have to look and see where Chesterville is, during the summer I,m up on Flagstaff Lake alot.

Al_Smith · February 02, 2012, 09:27:36 AM

Depends on what you have to work with I suppose .My buddy just bought a set of log tongs and put them on the drawbar of a three point hitch .

I just choker them up tight and drag them out for something like a ton or so with a little Fergueson .A little tractor you don't run out of power you just can't get traction or else you can't steer the thing if you do get a bight of the dirt .Chains help a little bit .Even with chains my limit is about a ton and half dragging out a log at that it's still a pain in the buttocks .Front end of the tractor a foot off the ground you have to steer the darned thing with the wheel brakes if you can .I think sometimes a big mule might be a better choice .

Stephen Alford · February 02, 2012, 09:52:27 AM

Hey Piston the ford is 65hp. Just to put the multiple stem grab (about 1/3cd) in perspective, they were used in the late 80's early 90's when wood harvest from old fields and hw thinnings was ctl by hand. In order to maintain cash flow wood could be yarded and sold sameday. In tight quarters the wood could be piled with them 4'high easy. Wood harvest then moved to tree length followed by the age of ctl processors.
My money is on you building one. I think you could find a used bypass grapple and go from there. A couple things we did that made them work well was to make a hydraulic top link. (also used on other implements to provide down pressure and higher lift). We put a hydraulic cylinder on the backbone for articulation. Last but not least split the hyraulics on the back to give three sets of quick coulpers. I like used containers, one of those stached on the property would be handy. May have to drag it out of site when family comes but DanG handy.

timbuck2 · February 02, 2012, 10:38:56 AM

Piston, too bad your Grandfather got taken to the cleaners on the logging, was common back then, not so much now. The big joke was to "cut around 40" or to cut around (approx.) 40 acres. Then to leave the 40 acres intact and cut a round it, or 200 or more acres. It's very cool to have a connection to your land tho. My 88 acres is part of my mothers family farm that was granted to my 7thGreat Grandfather as a pension for being in the Revolutionary war. My cousin owns the other 140. I.ve been here 30 yrs plus and am totally amazed by the amount of wood I've taken off. And the woodlots are still in good shape. My grandfather lived on the old farm until about late 60's and spent alot of time pruning pine and spruce. Once in while I would run into a spruce way down in the back that had been pruned with an ax, some were over 2 ft dia.

bill m · February 02, 2012, 09:01:30 PM

To bad about what happened to your grandfather. It sounds like the property is in good hands now. I really do like my grapple but haven't used it much lately. It doesn't work very well with the size timber I have been cutting the last 5 or 6 years.

For your project and the size trees you have I think a grapple would be perfect.

Piston · February 03, 2012, 04:52:15 AM

Quote from: Stephen Alford on February 02, 2012, 09:52:27 AM
My money is on you building one. I think you could find a used bypass grapple and go from there. A couple things we did that made them work well was to make a hydraulic top link. (also used on other implements to provide down pressure and higher lift). We put a hydraulic cylinder on the backbone for articulation. Last but not least split the hyraulics on the back to give three sets of quick coulpers. I like used containers, one of those stached on the property would be handy. May have to drag it out of site when family comes but DanG handy.

Stephen, I think your right, that seems like the direction I'll go, I should have bought the one that Bill was selling when I had the chance, kicking myself for that now that I'm looking into building one!
It's funny you mentioned the hydraulic top link. I just got a shipping notification yesterday that mine has shipped! 8) So it's on the way! I bought from a company called Fitrite hydraulics. I have a hydraulic side link from them as well and it works great, can't wait to get the top link on.
I recently added a 4 spool valve to the back of my tractor, and now have 4 rear remotes to work with. I was thinking I could use one of those for the hydraulic 'side to side'.
I never realized how useful the extra hydraulics were, and now I'm sort of 'fascinated' with them. I recorded how I added them here, if anyone is interested.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/232020-how-i-added-rear-remote.html (can I post that link on the forum?)

Piston · February 03, 2012, 04:55:04 AM

Quote from: timbuck2 on February 02, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
My 88 acres is part of my mothers family farm that was granted to my 7thGreat Grandfather as a pension for being in the Revolutionary war.

Tim,
That is truly incredible! What an amazing thing that is these days. To have ties back to the Revolutionary War like that is just awesome.

I hope that someday my 7th grandson can say the same thing about me regarding the land......minus the whole Revolutionary War thing. :D

Piston · February 03, 2012, 04:57:49 AM

Quote from: bill m on February 02, 2012, 09:01:30 PM
To bad about what happened to your grandfather. It sounds like the property is in good hands now. I really do like my grapple but haven't used it much lately. It doesn't work very well with the size timber I have been cutting the last 5 or 6 years.

Bill,
Your pictures never cease to amaze me! 8)

Those are some nice logs you have there! Do you sell them to a mill or do you mill them yourself? Have you been working the same tract of land for 5 or 6 yrs? If I could only take the trees at my current house and transport them to my land in NH, I'd be in dream land! ;D

Spalted Dog · February 03, 2012, 08:20:56 AM

Piston, thanks for the referral to TBN on your article. That is exactly what I am working on designing for my little tractor. I need more hyd for the top link as well as the forwarding trailer that I am building. I don't know if I will go with that many remotes as I need one outlet that is direct to operates functions on the trailer.

If there is a way to set that up in here I bet there are a lot of members that can use that info. Great job.

Piston · February 03, 2012, 09:21:37 AM

Spalted Dog,
If all you need is for the hydraulics to go to the trailer (as in your gonna have a dedicated valve on the trailer) then you'll just need a power beyond circuit.

However I'd definitely recommend going with a 2 spool valve (with power beyond for the trailer) that way you could run your top link and if you decide to get a side link you could run that too. I went with 4 because I have the side link, the top link (it's on it's way) and hydraulic scarifiers on my box blade, plus I'm building a hydraulic gauge wheel, so that will take up all my remotes.

Will you be using the trailer with the tractor 100% of the time?

I have hopes of someday building a log trailer like you, and was thinking that I could save money in the short term by running the hydraulics off my current valve setup. I could load and unload the trailer right from the tractor seat, however, I don't know if this would work out that great in reality. I haven't thought about it toooo much. I hope my writeup helps and feel free to ask questions.

Spalted Dog · February 03, 2012, 07:45:10 PM

Thanks Piston,
I will definitely be setting up the tractor hyd down the road. I want to wait until I get the trailer done to see if I will be modifying the crane to a knuckle boom style, or run it off its own power pack. I am really leaning toward the power pack so I can run it with the truck too.

The crane I have is electric over hydraulic. I will be using manual outriggers at this time until I see how I use it the most. I will need a motor valve to run the four wheel drive down the road if I need it and will use the existing hyd valve for the steering. I do have a 12v power pack that I need to get running that I could use to power the outriggers, and a powered boom extension if I decide to.

I hoped to be able to load unload from the seat as well, but that is one luxury that is not in the current budget. I build a lot of projects and know how fast the details add up in price. I will be using log tongs and chokers for my "Grapple" for now, so I will have to set them by hand. Not the handiest, but its what I have at the moment. If the foresrty work stays busy I will modify more for speed. My cabinet shop is pretty much flat so extra cash is not in the cards at the moment. I have pretty much switched to small scale logging and forest work. There seems to be a demand here in the area so I make hay when the sun shines.

I hope to start the crane trailer within the next 2 weeks.

I have thougt quite a bit about the 3 pt grapple idea as well. I have some good spots to use one, and hope to build one as well down the road.

bill m · February 03, 2012, 09:32:02 PM

Piston, All of my logs are sold to a mill. This is my 3rd winter on this job and I won't finish before mud season. I also have a lot of other jobs, with big timber on them, lined up. Enough for at least the next 5 or 6 years. As for the trailers you and Spalted Dog are going to build I don't think the idea of running the loader from the tractor seat would be very practical. When loading logs a lot of times you will need to trim stubs that were on the bottom of the logs. Often times you will leave the tree full length because you can only reach one end. You will have to pull it to you, get off and cut the first log then pull the tree again, cut another log and so on. A awful lot of up and down from the drivers seat.

shinnlinger · February 03, 2012, 10:54:52 PM

I'm following this thread with interest as I currently have a8k electric winch mounted on my rear blade which is fine for the $ invested but am always open to other ideas..
On a related side note, I'm on my family farm I quasi inherited and my family owns land on the coast in Maine my 6th great grandad got for fighting in the revolution...cousins all around as the original parcel got pared down. not everyday you can hang with your forth and fith cousins and know it...

Piston · February 04, 2012, 04:41:31 AM

Quote from: bill m on February 03, 2012, 09:32:02 PM
....When loading logs a lot of times you will need to trim stubs that were on the bottom of the logs. Often times you will leave the tree full length because you can only reach one end. You will have to pull it to you, get off and cut the first log then pull the tree again, cut another log and so on. A awful lot of up and down from the drivers seat.

Never thought of that! ;)

Shinnlinger,
That's awesome you have a connection like that to your land!

Piston · February 04, 2012, 04:54:26 AM

So I've been thinking about, IF I were to try and build a 'skidder grapple' what sort of things I would want incorporated into it.

I came up with a quick sketch (roughly to scale, but certainly not exact) of what I would want.

I basically took the attributes that I liked from all the grapples, and combined them into one, with an emphasis on the least amount of stress I could put on the top link. One of the major helpers here is obviously being as close to the tractor as practically possible. I know the stress is exponential the further away the weight is behind the tractor.

I made a basic frame that would attach to the 3 pt hitch. From there, I made a pivot point so the rest of the grapple assembly could swing freely side to side. I would add stops so it can't swing so far as to hit the tires. I would also add an engageable 'lock' so when the grapple was empty it wouldn't swing around, or possibly some heavy duty springs, which I don't love the idea of as there is a lot of potential energy stored very close to the tractor seat! I also thought of another hydraulic ram for the side to side, with a float position. That's getting too far ahead though :D

The problem that arises with a short 'boom' is that there won't be enough up/down movement to reach a log sitting on the ground, and get it high enough where it will clear the ground, so what I did is add another hinge point for up/down movement, and add a hydraulic cylinder there. This way, with the combination of the hydraulic top link and the up down of the boom, I would have plenty of vertical travel.
-Another advantage to this, would be that a lot more weight is concentrated on the bottom of the frame, at the lift arms, versus having everything supported by the pulling force of the top link, up high. Although, am I correct in that reasoning? ???
I could forgo the hydraulic up/down ram if I had enough vertical travel with the top link alone, and replace it with a steel knee brace for support.

The distance from the forward most part of the frame, to where the grapple is hanging, is approximately 3 and half feet.

shinnlinger · February 04, 2012, 07:57:58 AM

You can also install a winch above your grapple, be it electric or hydraulic for the occasional times you need little more reach

Piston · February 04, 2012, 09:28:52 AM

Good Idea,
I just finished wiring in an auxiliary plug for the winch that I'm adding to my log arch, so I could just weld another 2" receiver hitch onto the top of it.

The plug is the little gray one inside the fender. The downside is that my winch is only 4,500lbs.

beenthere · February 04, 2012, 10:26:19 AM

Add a hyd. top arm for the up/down and remove the one on the grapple arm (it will not stand up to being a log bumper to a log in the grapple).

Move the "side to side swing" pivot point forward and in a plane between the 3 ph attachments (i.e. incorporate the pivot within that frame). As you say, the more you can move forward the bigger load you can lift.

Good on your progress.

Piston · February 04, 2012, 11:12:28 AM

If I move the hydraulic up/down to the top of the unit, would that be putting more pulling strain on my top link? It seems it would? I see what you mean about the ram not standing up to a log as it is now though, good observation ;D

I could weld a heavy guard in front of it possibly? My thinking is that if I'm pushing up from the bottom on the main boom, there will be more force directed to the bottom of the frame and the lower links, whereas if I'm pulling the boom up from the top, I'll have more tension stress on the mounting holes for the top link.

beenthere · February 04, 2012, 11:19:46 AM

I'd replace the top link with an hydraulic cylinder.

What size tractor do you have? From the pic the 3 ph rocker arms look a bit light duty for the grapple build you are planning.

Piston · February 04, 2012, 11:23:27 AM

Quote from: beenthere on February 04, 2012, 10:26:19 AM
Move the "side to side swing" pivot point forward and in a plane between the 3 ph attachments (i.e. incorporate the pivot within that frame). As you say, the more you can move forward the bigger load you can lift.

Great idea beenthere ;)
Maybe I can recess the hinge point in more or possibly make more of a V shape with it.

One of my thoughts, and don't be afraid to tell me it's a stupid idea :D, was to make the main frame of the attachment able to rest down onto my main drawbar (not the bar that goes between the links, but the one you would normally pull a heavy load with, I don't know the real name for it)

I was thinking I could attach the unit to my 3pt hitch, lift it up off the ground, then install my drawbar, or rather pull it out a bit, so that I can then lower the 3pt hitch slightly until it sort of 'rests' onto my drawbar, transferring some of the weight to the drawbar, then use the hyd up/down to raise the log instead of the 3pt hitch.
Does this sound like a recipe for disaster, or a good idea? ;D ??? ???