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New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"

Started by 123maxbars, February 07, 2012, 10:27:34 PM

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123maxbars

I just purchased 5 acres of land that adjoins my farm. Main reason was for the acerage and not the timber. I am a part time sawyer (rookie) who saws on the weekends and after noons on my LT35 Hydr.  I am a stationary mill and do not do mobile jobs. I am a cop by profession and this is a hobby that easily pays for its self and then some. Anyways most of the lumber I sale is for barns and some woodworkers, but mostly for building, barn siding etc. The land I purchased has around 25 tall straight red/white oak trees. These trees are straight and around 24-30diam. The land is flat but is not cleared off and is over grown forest/woods. Thes trees do have branches on some of the butt logs and some after about 10-15feet from the ground. I hope to fell most of these trees and sale them as barn lumber etc. I have attached a few pictures of them. I have always bought from loggers who bring me clear logs so this will be my first eperience at sawing logs like this. My advice I am looking for is, are these trees worth fooling with? I figured Yes since I am not going for grade but just barn lumber etc. Looking for advice and people who have sawn similar trees/logs. Thanks in advance.  And another reason I didn't mention. Would be nice to tell the wife that we can get some of our money back/if not a little out of the timber from the land.



Sawyer/Woodworker/Timber Harvester
Woodmizer LT70 Super Wide, Nyle L53 and 200 kiln, too many other machines to list.
outofthewoods
Youtube page
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123maxbars

Sawyer/Woodworker/Timber Harvester
Woodmizer LT70 Super Wide, Nyle L53 and 200 kiln, too many other machines to list.
outofthewoods
Youtube page
Out of the

WDH

I saw a lot of oak, and there is a lot of good wood between those limbs knots.  You are going to get some good clear lumber, too, from the butt logs.  The #2 grade knotty stuff I can sell at $1.25 to $1.50 per Board foot to local woodworkers.  Your market may be different, but I like your plan.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

123maxbars

Thanks WDH. I always value your advice/post on here. I thought so also, I did a rough scale on the trees today and most doyle around 600-800 board feet a tree. Some a little more some a little less. and with 25 of them, I should be good on oak for the next decade, atleast hopefully.
Sawyer/Woodworker/Timber Harvester
Woodmizer LT70 Super Wide, Nyle L53 and 200 kiln, too many other machines to list.
outofthewoods
Youtube page
Out of the

fat olde elf

Always good to see another criminal justice person on the Forum.  I get more money for white oak than red oak. Trailer beds, etc.  White oak stands up to the weather very well, red oak not so well. You can't get any better advice than that from WDH.
Cook's MP-32 saw, MF-35, Several Husky Saws, Too Many Woodworking Tools, 4 PU's, Kind Wife.

Bibbyman

Looks like they'd make good shade trees.   I have a couple of big black oaks near our mill I've graveled under and laid out 6x6s to set lumber on.  It's a wonder how well they shade and shed the lumber stacked under them.  The trouble is, the shade is only seasonal.   And in the fall there are bushes of acorns that fall off them.  I picked up a bundle of lumber the other day and I'd bet a bucket full fell out and off it.



 

The trees are on the right side of this picture with lumber stacked under them.  The picture is six years old and I've since cleared and graveled under the trees and laid down the 6x6s.  There is enough room for me to put the long beams and decking lumber.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Ron Wenrich

I went to a mill that used shade trees to store their lumber.  It was supposed to be good quality lumber, that was put on sticks.  When I went through it, it was all stained.  There were leaves between the layers.  I don't think it got the needed air flow.

Shade trees are ok for storing logs and short term lumber, but I wouldn't use it for long term lumber storage.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Kansas

Elfe had the best solution for the white oaks. Trailer decking. Construction companies are more interested in quality and getting stuff when they need it than price. Many of the orders they put in are longer stuff. Those trees fit the bill perfectly.

Bibbyman

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 08, 2012, 05:37:11 AM
I went to a mill that used shade trees to store their lumber.  It was supposed to be good quality lumber, that was put on sticks.  When I went through it, it was all stained.  There were leaves between the layers.  I don't think it got the needed air flow.

Shade trees are ok for storing logs and short term lumber, but I wouldn't use it for long term lumber storage.

I use it for storing finished orders - waiting on the customer to pick up. Better than setting out in the hot sun when just a day or two an it starts to gray and curl up.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

bandmiller2

Max,are you going to clear the lot for agriculture or just have a woodlot.?I would only cut the oaks as you have a need for them.Time spent on woods roads is time well spent.Looks to me like ther ideal place for an old tractor and logging arch.If you have any timber framers in your area,may be a good outlet for good quality timbers. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

thecfarm

You say red oak,the red oak I have takes a few smarts to bring them down without splitting the butt log. Not a good idea to just put any notch into them and do the back cut. But than you say red/white oak too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Okrafarmer

I don't know where you've been getting those premium logs, but you should be able to get quite a few premium boards out of these trees by sawing around the knots on the lower logs. The upper logs will be increasingly pallet-like material, but still have their uses, some of which include low-grade lumber, firewood, pulpwood, or selling as pallet logs to a pallet mill.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

tcsmpsi

\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

123maxbars

Quote from: bandmiller2 on February 08, 2012, 08:15:11 AM
Max,are you going to clear the lot for agriculture or just have a woodlot.?I would only cut the oaks as you have a need for them.Time spent on woods roads is time well spent.Looks to me like ther ideal place for an old tractor and logging arch.If you have any timber framers in your area,may be a good outlet for good quality timbers. Frank C.

This land is mostly overgrown with brush etc. I plan on clearing it off and maybe running some goats/horses on it and replanting some trees and building a log cabin someday.

I appreciate the responses on here. Some of the trees I will keep but I plaon on milling alot of them to offset some of the purchase price for the land. 
Sawyer/Woodworker/Timber Harvester
Woodmizer LT70 Super Wide, Nyle L53 and 200 kiln, too many other machines to list.
outofthewoods
Youtube page
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123maxbars

I had a forester/timber buyer come to my woodlot a few weeks ago after making this post. I was just curious on what the offer would be. We spent a few hours walking the land and identifying every tree and what type of use it would bring. After a final tally here is what the lot has

24 Red/White oak trees, straight logs, some knots on the lower parts of some of the trees and average diam of 28in.

4 Ash trees. Straight logs, diam of about 22-28, no knots/limbs up to about 15feet.

4 Poplar trees, good straight logs, diam of 24-30. barn wood, which sells great in my area, and I cant keep enough poplar on hand as it is.

4 Walnut. Small trees, that I do not plan on harvesting anytime soon,

4 Hickory, 20in diam, straight.

I know these are not ideal trees, but in my local market I can sell (over time) all the lumber that I will harvest out of them, and the rest will be pulpwood/firewood. I did hear back from the buyer today who gave me an offer which I was surprised with at the least. He offered me 1k for all of them.  That was about a month ago when he looked at my lot. Since then I sawed up one red oak and was able to sale the two main logs out of the tree for barn lumber for $1.00 a foot which yielded me a profit of $800.00.  No way I will let all these trees go for 1k, i had non intentions of letting anyone harvest them but myself, but I was curious. Anyways, just wanted to update this project I am working on here and see what you guys think about the offer of 1k. Thanks for reading, 

Sawyer/Woodworker/Timber Harvester
Woodmizer LT70 Super Wide, Nyle L53 and 200 kiln, too many other machines to list.
outofthewoods
Youtube page
Out of the

Ron Wenrich

$20/tree.  Sounds a tad bit low, especially for those sizes.  If the oak only had 1½ logs, it would still have 434 bf Doyle.  It comes out to about $50/Mbf.  Those trees don't look to be much more than pasture trees and that effects the price.  But, $20/tree is low, at least in my area. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ianab

QuoteBut, $20/tree is low, at least in my area.

Sound's like he didn't really want them?

More work to harvest and process them yourself, but it seems to be the way to go.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Clark

You've got some nice trees on your land there and cutting some of them is probably a good idea.  After all, it's rare that someone stumbles onto a patch of timber that can't be improved in some way and that often times involves cutting the poorer trees.  While it is relatively easy to come up with a figure of what they are worth or how many bd-ft they contain, I would suggest thinking about how much they are worth to you still standing.  Once you cut them you will never see that big of a tree there in your lifetime. 

It seems like your not really sure what you will do with the land down the road 10-20 years.  If you do end up building a cabin I can assure you that several 30" oak nearby will greatly increase it's value and usage.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

cutterboy

123maxbars, I have two comments. First, if you own good timber trees and you have a saw mill, and you have proven to yourself that you can sell lumber...... then never sell trees or logs.....saw them up yourself. You'll make 10 times the money and have a good time doing it.

Second, I have never had a problem selling poor quality oak lumber. By poor quality I mean defects in the boards (knots, cracks, etc.) So, go ahead, harvest the trees and sell the lumber if that's what you want to do.
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

123maxbars

That is my plan cutterboy. I have never priced/sold timber from my farm. I was only curious on what type of price i would be offered for it. And it was wayyyyy lower than I imagined. 
Sawyer/Woodworker/Timber Harvester
Woodmizer LT70 Super Wide, Nyle L53 and 200 kiln, too many other machines to list.
outofthewoods
Youtube page
Out of the

MotorSeven

Remember, the logger is a middleman(nothing against loggers)...buys them from you then sells them to a mill which generally is another middleman because they mill it then sell it to a finish processer(kiln drying, flooring, planed boards etc) and even then they are not usually the send seller. Anyway, you are skipping a few steps by doing it yourself, so you will see much more $. Once word gets out you will sell all you have pretty quick.
Think about using some of those first trees to build a mill shed and a place to store lumber in the dry...comes in real handy.
WoodMizer LT15 27' bed

Okrafarmer

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

The wholesale (stumpage) market for trees is way lower than the retail value of the lumber, especially more so with hardwood than with pine.  I can sell a good red oak log that weighs one ton as stumpage for about $25 - $30 in my area.  I can saw that log into boards, spend 9 months drying them, put them in the shed, and sell them a few boards at a time over the next year to local woodworkers for $250. 

That is way better if you have the time, the space, and the equipment.  If you had one acre of them or only a few of them like you do, that sawing and selling the lumber is a good strategy.  If you had 200 acres and thousands of them, It could take you several lifetimes to come even close to utilizing them. 

I agree that you would be better to mill them yourself in your situation.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Wenrich

Let's be fair about prices.  Those trees aren't high quality trees from a market standpoint.  If you have veneer quality red oak, you'll be getting $1.50/bf in the log.  No sawing, no drying, no waiting for a market.  White oak can be higher, and walnut much higher.  Top end on some logs (walnut or cherry) is about $8/bf in really good markets. 

I've bought timber and I've sold timber.  50 trees really isn't enough to whet anybody's appetite for the trees, unless they are high quality.  The buyer went through the hassle of looking at the timber, then gave you a figure that didn't hurt his pocketbook.  He wasn't really interested, in my opinion.

Your $1/bf reflects a marketplace that you could fill, and all your capital and labor inputs.  You can't discount them to $0 when making a comparison.  There has to be worth to your labor and investment.  Same goes for the logger.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Like Ron suggested there is nothing "free" in processing those standing trees into salable lumber even if you own them in your back yard. It might seem free, because the government isn't taxing your labour. But they are taxing the gas, the sale of the saws the parts you busted in working those logs etc, depreciation on everything involved. ;D Let's say you busted a major part that costs $1500 bucks, you better sell some lumber. ;)

You'll probably get a few clears assuming you have some clear faces in the logs, but there will be lots of low grade to when you have open grown trees.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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