first break down with the HF mill,fixed no thanks to woodland mills

[hunterbuild]

Had the threads on the height adjustment fail on Thursday. Called HF of course on back order. maybe available mid April. Called woodland mills begged for the part. explained I was in the middle of a project that I had to have saw working right away. They would not sell it to me period. Made a big point about the HF was junk and designed to fail. The part is a brass worm nut on both saws. The saw come from the same factory in China and other than the motor and the lube tank are as close to the same as possible, so their not saying anything good about their saw. But my point is this was an emergency and I would help my fierce competitor out in a situation like this any day. After trying the bigger machine shops out and not having any luck I tried a small shop, West River Welding and Machine in Rapid City SD. He didn't hesitate,said it would run about $100 to cut the new nut out of steel. I might mention it was a left hand square tread cut at an odd number of treads per inch, not anything you can get off the shelve. I told him the sob story, he says Fridays are always days for need it right away. I said I could wait till next week. He said he always figures for it and can do it that day. I picked it up this morning, works perfect, should last a long time. On a side note if woodland wants to send me their brass nut I would be glad to try it out and give a fair evaluation if it is different or better than the HF part,or any other part they would like me to compare. Back to sawing tomorrow. Thanks to the small guys who do the job when you need help. Sorry if I ran on a bit.

[ChuckinVa]

I don't think you are going to find much sympathy here. First of all HF, some of their products work for their intended purpose others do not. Second you are attacking Woodland ( A sponsor of this site) for not providing a part for a saw they didn't sell and expecting them to take on liability for you because you have a job you need to complete. I am glad you were able to get someone to manufacturer something that will work for you. I would have a little concern about replacing a brass fitting with one made from steel as steel tends to corrode faster than brass does. Glad you are back up and ready to saw again.

[hunterbuild]

I can understand that, but I always feel we should help each other out when we can. I was just asking to buy a nut not a grantee. The bolt is made of steel so a steel nut should be OK, not so much a corrosion problem where it is at . The machinist said it was more to keep to from binding. Not so much for sympathy as letting people know on How the HF is doing as there was some interest on how it will stand up. I sure can't brag on their customer service as they don't have the part.

[beenthere]

The important part of this is that you are up and running.  That is good to know. 

[Armand Tatro]

Once again the friendly local machinest and/or blacksmith saves the day!  Their is still a need for these shops just as there is a need for woodworkers, carpentors, and other craftsmen willing to take on small (and sometimes not so small) jobs.  If a person is willing to work with their hands as well as minds we will surive and prosper.  Armand

[albirk]

make sure you keep some lube on the threads (steel on steel) so you don't end up with them galled together

[shinnlinger]

It bothers me when people continually gripe about hf and other cheap tools.  The fact is they are so cheap the buyer has to know they are crap(and well documented just how bad hf can be). How can anyone expect a cheap tool to hold up like a name brand one 5x its cost???
There is a place for cheap stuff, but don't complain when it doesn't work out

[bandmiller2]

Hunter glad your back in service. How do you know their the same mill.? The Woodland mill seem well thought out and built. Frank C.

[customsawyer]

I am glad that you are up and running. I would get to be good friends with that machinist. ;D

[hunterbuild]

One our members traced it back to the factory in China. I don't remember the post,it was one of the first I posted when I got the saw. I must say the Chinese are no dummies they cut this part so you can't get it off the shelve. I think I found the problem and will be reporting on it as soon as I verify it. My new forever machinist said to use anti-seize lube and I should be good.

[hunterbuild]

As to cheap stuff and griping. I knew full well what I was buying when I got the HF mill. So far I'm amazed by this little mill. Will I have good service from HF? So far no! I will have to rely on my self to fix. I could not have built this saw for the less than $1800 I now have in it. Most of the saw is straightforward and will last for ever. The bearing on the band wheels I will have to see if they are standard,if not I will keep them on hand. Lot of members have expressed interest in how it works so I'm trying to be honest in my evaluation as I go along.

[Okrafarmer]

What is HF?

[beenthere]

Harbor Freight

[Okrafarmer]

Oops. I knew that. Harbor Fright. The best place not to shop.

[mikeb1079]

What is HF?

"hardly fixable"   :D :D  sorry i couldn't resist.  on a serious note my impression is not that the op was complaining that the part broke rather that the mill manufacturer who had the part (i assume based on the op) wouldn't sell him said part.  IF they had it, i agree with hb that it would have been a gesture of good business to supply any part they had in stock even if they reminded him that their mills were better made.   

[Magicman]

For whatever the reason, I dislike seeing Woodland Mills being dragged into the problem even if they did have a part that might have fixed the HF.  I certainly understand customer service, goodwill, and brotherly love, but it still was not their problem.

Hunterbuild, I am glad that you have a machinist friend that gives good advice and can keep you sawing.   

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Hunterbuild....where do you live?  I'd like to know what part of the country you are in and what type of logs you are sawing.

[Cedarman]

There are ethical competitors and unethical ones.  I have had both.  I don't mind helping ethical competitors.  I won't help the unethical ones. 
One time a person came into the mill and asked for some long cedar and needed it quickly to finish a job.  In the course of the conversation it became obvious that they had bought most of their material from a you know who.  They had thought I was too high.  No big deal on that. The customer was in no way unethical, but he wanted to put his problem on my back. I felt no compulsion to work extra even though I could have.  If I was going to  work extra into the evening, then I would do it for regular customers.  Sorry, but I was just too busy to work him in.
Too often in life, people have a monkey (problem) on their back.  They will do their best to transfer this monkey to you if you let them.  Never let them.  It is their monkey and they get to keep it.  This advice which I received many years ago has served me well.

[zopi]

if the HF mill is a chinese copy of the woodland..I don't really blame them for not selling the part...

having said that..I own quite a few chinese tools, some of which are pretty decent, and some are crap...I have a lathe and mill that together cost half as much as would have been the case had I bought higher quality...and for as much as I use them..they have amortized quite well.

Glad you are up and running!

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Too often in life, people have a monkey (problem) on their back.  They will do their best to transfer this monkey to you if you let them.  Never let them.  It is their monkey and they get to keep it.  This advice which I received many years ago has served me well.

I know exactly what you mean!




 

[customsawyer]

I think he said the machinist was in Rapid City SD. this should put him close to that area. Great for motorcycle riding. ;D

[Peter Drouin]

You get what you pay for, junk is junk Buy the good stuff made in the USA :D :D :D :D :D ;D Shinnlinger Im with you on that one

[Texas Ranger]

Too often in life, people have a monkey (problem) on their back.  They will do their best to transfer this monkey to you if you let them.  Never let them.  It is their monkey and they get to keep it.  This advice which I received many years ago has served me well.

I know exactly what you mean!




 

I have a problem seperating the monkies :D :D :D

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Too often in life, people have a monkey (problem) on their back.  They will do their best to transfer this monkey to you if you let them.  Never let them.  It is their monkey and they get to keep it.  This advice which I received many years ago has served me well.

I know exactly what you mean!




 

I have a problem seperating the monkies :D :D :D

Here, I'll help you:

Micky Dolenz, Davy Jones, Peter Tork, and Michael Nesmith

:D :D :D

[hunterbuild]

I'm in the Black Hills near MT-Rushmore. The saw is up and running, cutting good. I think the problem is poor milling on the shaft, there is a spot in the middle where it is harder to turn, causing a lot of stress on the treads. The brass treads were just broke off after a while. I hope the steel treads will hold up better. I will order a new shaft to see if this is just a fluke,if not I will have a new one milled here. I think we might all be surprised by how many foreign parts are in made in America items. I think we have to learn to buy and fix.  :D

[Okrafarmer]

Guy I was working for about 5 years ago bought a brand new Freightliner Business Class M2 single-axle truck for hauling dumpsters. Within the first week, there were at least three break-downs, including an air hose leak that shut us down at the dump for hours. Made in USA. Buy new and fix.

[Tree Feller]

I've bought a few HF tools, usually for one-off jobs, which is all I expect out of them. Basically, I treat them as disposable. They are built cheaply to be sold cheaply and they usually perform cheaply. There is the occassional gem that far outperforms the purchase price.

Being manufactured in China, however, is not the problem but rather the specs under which they are built. I have a shop full of Grizzly woodworking power tools...10" Cabinet Saw, 8" Jointer, 17" Band Saw, 15" Planer. They were all made in China but to Grizzly's specifications. There are, no doubt, better woodworking tools available but I doubt there is a better bargain out there.

I looked at the HF band sawmill but decided against it, primarily because of the service issue. Parts are always back-ordered and there are no HF service centers anywhere. The buyer is on their own as far as service, which was made evident in this case.

I do think it was poor form to diss Woodland Mills over what was Harbor Freight's problem.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I do think it was poor form to diss Woodland Mills over what was Harbor Freight's problem.

[hunterbuild]

In fairness to woodland mills,I looked at the manual tonight and they have improved the cranking system,which I think will work better. I only wish I would have the opportunity to try it out. As the current price difference stands they are a better value just for the bigger motor and possibly customer service. I just felt if you have parts to sell you should sell them.

[swampbuggy]

here an email I got from the manufacturer. Maybe he can help. Call him.  Swamp

We have the exclusive distributor in USA, you can contact with them directly by the following website:

Http://www.woodlandmills.ca

With best regards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Henry Hao



Skype:haohenry1979
Sunpower machinery Co.,LTD
Mobilephone:13061258179
Tel:86-532-86660370
Fax:86-532-86660371
Http://www.my-sunpower.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: henryhao2008
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: china saw mill

Hello Sir,

Could you tell me where are you from? In some country, we have the exclusive sales.

PS: Do you purchase our little mill to sale in store or individual using?

With best regards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Henry Hao



Skype:haohenry1979
Sunpower machinery Co.,LTD
Mobilephone:13061258179
Tel:86-532-86660370
Fax:86-532-86660371
Http://www.my-sunpower.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


发送时间： 2012-01-30  14:30:06
收件人： henryhao2008@126.com
抄送：
主题： china saw mill
how much does your little mill cost?

[den]

Woodland Mills FAQ
Neil & Josh designed, engineered and tested the sawmill in Canada. To keep the retail price competitive, the sawmill was sourced to a very experienced manufacturer in China. We work very closely with them to ensure we are producing a good quality and well valued sawmill.

[hamish]

We have the exclusive distributor in USA, you can contact with them directly by the following website:

Http://www.woodlandmills.ca

Exclusive..........mmmm.......so how is HF selling em them.  Regardless you have a mill thats what counts, you could have any popular model of mill and have a part fail that is not stocked or readily available by the manufacturer.

[Okrafarmer]

This is one of the Turner Mill's biggest redeeming features-- practically every part (other than frame, etc) is an off-the shelf component. The frame is also built of standard steel pieces too, in case you ever have to fix or modify it.

[MHineman]

I think we might all be surprised by how many foreign parts are in made in America items. I think we have to learn to buy and fix.  :D

A different type of machine, but same concept, most if not all small tractors (read < 100 hp) are made in China.  I understand that the John Deere, Massey Fergusson, etc. American companies probably have tighter specs and quality control, but at a 2 to 3 times higher price.
  I have a 40 hp Foton tractor purchased from Rural King.  It has better features, is more versitile, and easier to operate than my dad's John Deere tractor.  But.... I am NOT going to have the dealer support that my dad has.
  That's OK for both of us.  I am very good as working on my own equipment and figuring out how everything works or what needs to be done to get it working again.  My dad is NOT good with tools, or understanding the inner working of the tractor.  We both are happy with our machines.
  BTW, I have over 1,500 hours on my tractor in 4 years and do everything from making hay to logging.  I had to replace one radiator hose and the front wheel bearings.  The latter due to the overloading I caused by moving logs that are too large.
  My dad's Massey Fergusson has about 800 hours and has been to the dealer about once a year or more every year for repairs of average $500.  I would have been able to repair it for less $, but it still had more things go wrong with less hours and easier use.

[beenthere]

MHineman
Which JD tractors do you think are made in China and sold in the US?

There is a Deere factory there, producing JD's for the China market.

Lawn and Garden tractors are produced at a factory in Horicon, WI. All of them, I believe.
There are some small compact utility in the 2000 series made in Japan, but the 3000 series (30 hp and up) and 4000 series are made in Augusta, GA. True that they have a Yanmar Diesel in many of them, and a very good one at that. Also true that there are some parts made in China.

[Okrafarmer]

We've had a lot of trouble with a Japanese-built Massey 1260-- it is not a heavy-duty machine, so be sure not to try to do any logging with it or heavy duty four-wheel drive loader work. You will be chagrined if you do.

[Okrafarmer]

Some of the John Deere utility tractors are made in India now, like the 5203, and so on, I believe. They are quite inexpensive, in line with other reputable or semi-reputable manufacturers. I do not know how they hold up, but they have been on the market for a few years now.

[Okrafarmer]

The John Deere 6000 series are (or were!) made in Mannheim, Germany, at a plant John Deere has owned over there since the 1950's.

[zopi]

Drop two chinese guys in the middle of the sahara, amd they will get rich selling each other sand, amd both of them will have successful restaurant running inside a month...

[bandmiller2]

Like it or not we live in a global world.The chinese will build what their paid to build.Our industry is encombered with fed. state and local government,EPA,OSHA,not to mention unions.The quality of chinese goods will improve along with the price,until they become anouther Japan.Then lowball manufacturing will move to a different country.If you buy cheap be prepared to do your own repairs. Frank C.

[GF]

My brother purchased a John Deere zero turn from the local John Deere dealer.  It has the heavy z-Iron 60" deck, and on the front spindle assemblies it has made in China.

[NeilB]

Had the threads on the height adjustment fail on Thursday. Called HF of course on back order. maybe available mid April. Called woodland mills begged for the part. explained I was in the middle of a project that I had to have saw working right away. They would not sell it to me period. Made a big point about the HF was junk and designed to fail. The part is a brass worm nut on both saws. The saw come from the same factory in China and other than the motor and the lube tank are as close to the same as possible, so their not saying anything good about their saw. But my point is this was an emergency and I would help my fierce competitor out in a situation like this any day. After trying the bigger machine shops out and not having any luck I tried a small shop, West River Welding and Machine in Rapid City SD. He didn't hesitate,said it would run about $100 to cut the new nut out of steel. I might mention it was a left hand square tread cut at an odd number of treads per inch, not anything you can get off the shelve. I told him the sob story, he says Fridays are always days for need it right away. I said I could wait till next week. He said he always figures for it and can do it that day. I picked it up this morning, works perfect, should last a long time. On a side note if woodland wants to send me their brass nut I would be glad to try it out and give a fair evaluation if it is different or better than the HF part,or any other part they would like me to compare. Back to sawing tomorrow. Thanks to the small guys who do the job when you need help. Sorry if I ran on a bit.

Josh and I were surprised to read this thread. We have spent a great deal of time with the cranking system of the mill and know how critical it is. We actually even sourced lead screws and oil impregnated bushings from a company in the USA that specialized in this area for some prototyping we did. Unfortunately, we couldn't validate that our lead screw and bushing design would fit your mill. If you assembled our part in your mill and it failed, it could cause severe damage. Again, we apologize, but it was not a liability or risk we felt comfortable with. We're glad to hear you are back up and running. It sounds like you found a good solution. Happy and safe milling!

Thanks,
Neil & Josh
Woodland Mills

[JohnM]

Josh and I were surprised to read this thread. We have spent a great deal of time with the cranking system of the mill and know how critical it is. We actually even sourced lead screws and oil impregnated bushings from a company in the USA that specialized in this area for some prototyping we did. Unfortunately, we couldn't validate that our lead screw and bushing design would fit your mill. If you assembled our part in your mill and it failed, it could cause severe damage. Again, we apologize, but it was not a liability or risk we felt comfortable with. We're glad to hear you are back up and running. It sounds like you found a good solution. Happy and safe milling!

Thanks,
Neil & Josh
Woodland Mills

Sounds like perfectly good reasoning to me.  Watch for those buses, Neil.  ;)

JM

[NeilB]

Thanks for your comment John...  :D

We have sold some of our standard parts to sawyers who are building their own mills and actually just sold some blade guides to someone wanting to retrofit his Norwood mill. We try to ensure that we are comfortable with part adaptability, application, safety and intended use whenever possible. Trust me, liability insurance isn't cheap!  :D

[hunterbuild]

thank you for your response. I think your design is a better set up. I was conferable in trying your parts, and think the ability to determine if it would work or not would be straightforward. My question is how would it be any difference going to a hardware store and buying a chain for a certain saw and putting it on a different saw or a bolt or any parts for that matter.

[dblair]

have another made out of brass or cast iron. it will gauld and then it will be a lead screw and nut

[hunterbuild]

I been pushing it like crazy on this job. So far the steel treads are working better than ever. Seems smooth all the way up and down. I have 12 blades coming from Cooks and need them now.

[SPIKER]

Hey Guys:

I got a email that HF has the saws on sale for 1999.99 at the moment.   was thinking about it but I dont have a lot of sawing for myself would be a buy and use and re-sell for me and not sure if that is worth the effort...

What has gone on lately with them?

mark

[Beavertooth]

I bought from harbour freight once. That was once to many times for me.
         You get what you pay for no matter what it is.  Glad your sawing again.

[Tree Feller]

As strictly a hobbiest sawyer, I seriously considered the HF mill. In the end, I just could not get past the quality issues of many HF tools. Their name is not exactly synonymous with high quality.

[moandrich]

I like shopping at HF, but when I do I realize you get what you pay for.  They have cheap tools and if I need something only once and a while it is my goto place.  I don't compare them to more expensive tools because it just isn't fair.

[hunterbuild]

I have been doing some major sawing with my HF. Get good blades and there is no stopping it. I will figure board ft and post pictures as soon as I finish the job. It has more than paid for itself. It has some bugs but nothing you can't fix.

[bandmiller2]

When you order machinery from an outfit like HF you must figure your on your own for parts and repairs, if your comfy with that , you can get alot of use out of it.The basic design is good just some of the components lack the quality we expect.The mechanic /machinest will not think twice about modifying the mill to quality parts. Frank C.

[Indiana Robinson]

When you order machinery from an outfit like HF you must figure your on your own for parts and repairs, if your comfy with that , you can get alot of use out of it.The basic design is good just some of the components lack the quality we expect.The mechanic /machinest will not think twice about modifying the mill to quality parts. Frank C.

I agree completely... I buy some stuff from HF with no qualms and some of their stuff I would not buy ever.
The mechanic / machinist will generally know from experience whether or not the quality is good enough or not and will rarely consider price in that decision.

About refusing to sell to a customer... Tsk tsk... Just silly. The customer you help through a tough spot for a few bucks today becomes the guy that makes you his "go to place" tomorrow and the next day and the next... Annnnd the place where he will come for the big  stuff because he knows that you will take care of him. I owned and operated sales and service operations most of my life and I never refused to try to help a customer. For one thing your insurance company WILL NOT lower the cost of your insurance for refusing to sell that item. The solution is simply "clearly" mark the receipt as a non-standard transaction... The customer cannot even prove that he bought the item from you without that receipt. Keep a supply of generic waiver forms handy and have him sign one indicating that you have possible reservations about what he may be thinking of doing. We board horses and no one climbs on a horse unless we have a waiver on file.
If you refuse him then what do you do about the guy that wants to do something similar but doesn't' tell you what he is doing but just buys the part quietly.
Sorry but that all sounds a little too "chicken little" to me.
We were a lot of folks "go to place" for many many years sometimes doing things quite unorthodox and the only lawyers I ever talked to were the ones that were our customers.
I am now 70 years old, I have done a lot of different things and still do. One thing in my life I am grateful about is that I did not waste my life being afraid of "everything". If I was I wouldn't be enjoying all of these horses everyday, I wouldn't own a motorcycle. I would not have half of the experience I have. I may be dropping a few trees one day and up on a roof the next then maybe using an excavator the next.
Now, I don't do just stupid stuff like race motorcycles, or cheat on my wife, or go around slapping Sumo wrestlers but I don't let the fear of every little "possibility" keep me hiding in a corner... And I sure won't refuse to sell a common part to someone that wants to buy one...

Soapbox now back in closet.  ;D


.

[hunterbuild]

A-men, 8) 8)

[Dan_Shade]

for this case, I disagree.

Knockoffs/counterfits make profits by stealing ideas from hardworking entreprenuers, then sell low grade crap to consumers looking to save a dollar.

I would have done the same thing Woodland did for 2 reasons:

• I would only sell parts to registered owners, which can assist in reducing theft of machinery/recovery of stolen machinery.
• I would not sell a "good" component which is specified for my machinery to beef up junk that's a knock off to my design.

I'm all for helping somebody out, but I sort of lump this into complaining when a Pinto can't keep up with a Corvette.

[Indiana Robinson]

Sorry... also an excellent attitude for going belly-up. I have to ask if you have a retail or service background?
You don't waste money and you don't waste a customer you have already gotten through the door. Or you do not survive unless you are very big to start with. You are either in business first or you will be out of business... It is easy to say what you would do and to take a high sounding stand from an arm chair but another if you are paying the bills out of  what comes in the door and are supporting a large family.
Only a tiny number of businesses survive even 5 years. Over all those years I saw business owner after owner shoot themselves in the foot. I saw an awful lot of them come and quickly go. You can spend a million dollars on advertising but it is what the folks that have been in your business say to the folks that may come into your business that decide if you do well or even survive... There is an old saying that "Nobody ever really won an argument with a customer".
I stand by what I said. I did that dance a lot of years. In fact I did the dance when most guys were afraid to walk out on the floor. I survived. ;D


.


.

[hamish]

Why is this issue still being flogged?

Business has changed alot over the years, welcome to the age of best practices and lean manufacturing, and hats off to Josh and Neil.


Economy, margins, et al have changed, and dependant upon your area many consumers are internet savvy(oops are we on the internet?) and can purchase most anything at a lower cost........once again dependant upon ones local.


The times have changed, liability patent infringement etc... are all issues in todays world.

[Indiana Robinson]

Why is this issue still being flogged?

Business has changed alot over the years, welcome to the age of best practices and lean manufacturing, and hats off to Josh and Neil.


Economy, margins, et al have changed, and dependant upon your area many consumers are internet savvy(oops are we on the internet?) and can purchase most anything at a lower cost........once again dependant upon ones local.


The times have changed, liability patent infringement etc... are all issues in todays world.

Funny. You object to it but yet you had to give it a few lashes...  :D  ;D   8)
BTW, I am not out of touch. I have all of my marbles except the ones I have miss laid somewhere.  ;D


.