MS 362 or 441???

[CJ Porter]

Hello every body. I am a brand new member who is about to undertake a pretty big project. I have some property in Texas that has been hit by Live Oak Wilt. There are several hundred if not over a thousand dead but standing live oaks ranging from 8" to 24". I have a buyer who will buy as much of the wood as I can cut. he wants it in 3' lengths and he is going to buy it by the cord. My goal is to cut 120 cords this year. I have a MS 290 Stihl but I know that it isn't enough saw to take on this project. I am going to buy a new saw and use the 290 as a backup or let a helper use it as need arises. My first question is which saw should I buy. I am looking at either a 362 or 441 with a 25" bar. Which of these saws is better for me? Do I need the extra power of the 441? I am not a big guy so I am a little worried about the extra weight of the bigger saw.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the forum.

Start with the saw you have.

If that doesn't cut it, then I'd suggest moving up to the 362, and as you progress toward the end of your goal, you will have a real good idea what you can do (and if you need more saw).

Sounds like cutting wood is a bit new for you, so don't get in over your head.
Would be interested in hearing more about the project. And we like pics.

[sawguy21]

Welcome aboard. What length bar do you want to use?

[CJ Porter]

I'm thinking I want a 25" bar. My logic is that since the dead oak is so hard I will need the extra teeth. I am not completely new to cutting wood I have just never done it on this kind of scale. One reason I am thinking I need a bigger saw is that I intend to put in 8 hour days and I'm not sure my 290 can stand up to that kind of use for very long. Plus the fuel efficiency seems to be quite a bit better on the bigger saws.  I would rather have too much saw than too little.

The Live Oak Wilt is a disease we have been dealing with for a while around here http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/archives/parsons/trees/oakwilt.html. I am selling the wood to a charcoal plant near my place. I am going to try to cut and stack 4 cords a weekend.I see this as a good way to pay myself to clean up these dead trees. The buyer will pay the same price for green mesquite which I also have in abundance. I know the green mesquite will be easier to cut, but it has to be doped after it is cut. The extra work and expense of doping the stumps is why I am focusing on the oak for now.  I will post some pics.

I did just put a new bed on my truck that i'm pretty excited about. I'll post a picture of that for now. 

 

[lumberjack48]

Hi CJ Poter, I would buy a 441 Magnum, it only weighs 1.6 lbs more then the 362. I owned 3, 044 Magnums, there wasn't one day that the saw didn't impress me. The saw comes alive in your hands, fun to run. I can go as far as to promise you, you won't even notice the little extra weight.

The 290 will do the job, the 441 will be easier on you and do it twice as fast, it takes the work out of it. You'll be wanting to go to work, when you have a saw that will get the job done, just my thoughts.

I ran a 16" bar, i had a 24" in the pickup in case i got in to 36" wood.

I tried to make a job fun not work, good luck with the Oak.

[thecfarm]

CJ Porter,welcome to the forum. How do you plan on getting the wood out? You could get by with a 20 inch bar,just more to shapen with a 25 inch. I have a 372 and only run an 18 inch on that one. I have cut some good size trees with it too. May want to use your smaller saw for a limbing saw too. The smaller saw will get a rest when you are cutting down the trees.

[snowstorm]

buy the 362 i have one you will like it. 18" bar is all you need 16 would do just fine

[John Mc]

I'm with Beenthere. Start with the saw you have, and get a feel for the job... especially get a feel for cutting 8 hours a day. If you are worried about overheating the saw, double check the mixture. If anything, you probably want to be running a tad on the rich side. THey come from the factory set rather lean... might work out OK, but when you are working the saw hard, running it a bit richer will help keep things cooler.

You mentioned that weight is a concern. I tend toward the lighter saws myself. The extra 1.6 lbs of a 441 over a 362 might not sound like much, but over the course of the day, it can make a big difference. If you can tolerate the weight all day, the 441 will do the job quicker. Any chance you can borrow a 441 to try it out for a day?

Keep in mind: a sharp chain will make more difference than a bigger saw.

[CJ Porter]

thecfarm, I will be getting the wood out with a truck and trailer most of the wood is easy to access with a pickup and drag trailer or even a goose neck if I get that much cut.

John MC, you hit the nail on the head when you said the 441 will get it done quicker. I want to cut as much wood as possible as fast as possible. Keeping chains sharp is an issue. I am not a great chain sharpener. My plan was to buy 3 or 4 really good chains for each saw and do my best to keep them sharp. what kind of chains will be best for the wood? Stihl makes the PICCO Duro 3 which sounds like it would be well suited for the what I'm doing.   

[Spalted Dog]

I have an older 036 with a 20 bar and was my main saw.  I still love it but love my Dolmar with a 24" bar much more.  I can cut circles around the 036.  I have not ran a 441 but have run a 460.  If you can handle the weight and safely control the larger saw, I think you will be happier with the larger saw for speed of cutting.  However if weight is an issue for you or you are inexperienced, the 362 is a very fine saw.  Watch out for kickback, helmet and chaps required, be safe, there are many things trying to get you in the woods.  I work quite a bit of oak wilt trees and there are a lot of widowmakers out there.


Practice sharpening, you will get very good at it in a hurry with that amount of trees to cut.  Your files will become your best friends in the woods.  Dull chains are by far the worst for fatigue to me as well.

I would reccomend running either one with a 20" bar.  Easy to handle and sharpen and sounds like it will cut anything you need with your project.  The larger bar adds some weight.

[macpower]

CJ,
The saw you own that is paid for is always a good place to start, but, for what it's worth, (and this may raise some hackles.) As new saws are now, there are 3 saws that I feel are worth owning, ( for anything but  "home owner" use or long bar use). The Stihl 362, 440, and Jonsered 2172, (or Husky =). IMHO the 362 has hit the same sweet spot that the 036-360-361 did, but is at its best with an 16-18-20" set up. The 440 and 2172 with a 24/25 inch are a hard act to beat. 441s are an OK saw, but for power/weight the 440 wins. (441 has real good anti vibe though and retails for a bit less). 2172 has the anti vibe and the balls in the 70cc class, also a very nice red and black paint job. 440 are all but bullet proof, I see very few come back through the shop. Same with 2172s and 362s, 441s almost as solid.
If you find yourself burying a 24/25 inch bar, you may want to look at running skip chain. It will help chip clearing and help keep the chain speed up. Chain speed, (as well as sharp teeth), means everything.
On a logging or commercial cutting job, a chain saw at $600-$1000 is about the least expensive piece of production equipment on site, it's almost  throwaway equipment compared to your other costs. It's not a good place to cut corners.

[John Mc]

Stihl makes the PICCO Duro 3 which sounds like it would be well suited for the what I'm doing.

The Duro chains have good life, but are not something you can sharpen easily in the field - it has a carbide tip on each tooth, which takes a diamond impregnated grinding wheel to sharpen. I also believe there are better matches for the saws and what you will be cutting than the Picco chains.

I don't know a lot about Stihl chains, but I think I would be considering something in the RS or RM series. The RS is a chisel chain, the RM is a semi-chisel (cuts a tad slower than the RS, but holds up better if cutting in dirty conditions). If these are standing trees, I would lean towards the RS. If they've been skidded and picked up a lot of dirt and grit, then the RM... but either should work OK for you, and are easily field sharpened.

[CJ Porter]

Realistically how much wood do you guys think I can cut in a day? Am I being too optimistic thinking I can cut 2 cords in a day?

[Clam77]

If you're not going to be splitting it up or anything, with cutting into 3' lengths you can probably do 3... MAYBE 4 cords a day... if you keep a sharp chain.  Don't overdo though- take a 5-10 minute rest every hour to hour and a half... the fatigue from the weight and vibration will get to you if you don't.

[beenthere]

Are you just knocking the trees down, bucking them up on the spot, and then ?? -- picking up and loading by hand? Are you cleaning the tops or leaving them lay? This is live oak you said.  Heavy, heavy..... high density and will saw tough.

Being as you asked, then my guess would be yes...a bit optimistic. But you know your condition and endurance factor better than we do.

Tell us about it. ;)

[Ianab]

My thoughts are that you already have the MS290, which is OK for a light duty firewood saw. The MS361, while being a better saw, is not much bigger. Not enough that you will notice a huge difference. I would get a noticeably bigger saw to complement it, like the 441. Then use both saws. Drop trees with the bigger saw, then break out the lighter / shorter bar saw to take care of the tops and limbs. Working on those you are waving the saw around all the time, a couple less pounds and the shorter bar make it easier. As it's only small wood, the extra power of the bigger saw is no advantage. When you get to the heavier wood, swap back to the big saw. Now most of your cutting involves sitting the saw on the log, and just standing there. The extra weight of the saw then makes little difference. The extra power means you are going to save time breaking down the big sections of log, and that's where the bulk of your wood is.

I have a MS310, similar to your 290, and have a Dolmar 7900 (79cc) with a 28" bar for the bigger stuff. If I bought another saw it would probably be a smaller lighter one to use for limbing and pruning work. We were doing a clean up job, taking down some cedars, firewood and saw logs, and anything  else on a burn pile. Friend had a little MS180 (?) that was sweet for limbing and cutting up the tops. Cuts through a 4" branch as fast any anything else, and was so light you could wave it around all day.

Ian

[thecfarm]

You did not say your age. I have no idea how high your trailer is,but loading 24 inch hardwood onto a trailer is kinda heavy. I use to do that with my firewood. It was too much work for me. Told my Father why can't we haul it out in whatever lenghts we want or can. I don't know if you have a way to do that or not and maybe you can't.

[AdkStihl]

441 and forget about it!!  You'll actually WANT to go cut  ;D

[Ward Barnes]

Howdy:

3 foot lengths of any wood over about 8 inches gets real heavy real fast and very tiring to lift.  Many accidents happen when you are overly tired and one accident in the woods is all it takes.  Get a partner for a safety spotter if for nothing else.  My wife sits nearby when I cut just for that reason.  Look into adding a hydraulic or other powered lift to your truck.  They are not cheap but over the course of the year that you are looking at it will be a God send.

God Bless, Ward and Mary.

[lumberjack48]

Like WB said, do not go out there alone, theres to many things that can happen when, felling, bucking up, and loading wood. After 30 yrs of felling timber i thought i'd seen it all, not quite, theres always that one that can get you.  >:( :(

My felling saw was a 034 Super, i owned 3 of-em over the yrs. I loved this saw for felling and light bucking up. When it came to sawing up 40+ cds with two skidders coming in to you, i got out the 044 Mag or the 038 Mag II. Like they said, these saws are bullet proof, i had a 044 and a 038 that bucked wood 8 yrs, never apart.

As far as chain gos i would run the Picco chain, impregnated carbide. It can be field sharped with a good file. I think you can get it from Baileys in a Carlton chain much cheaper. This chain will cut 3-4 times the wood before needing sharping, if you stay out of the ground. 

As far as get tired, I'd saw up about a 1/4 cd, then load. Then while i was resting I'd saw up another 1/4 cd, then load again. Better yet, I'd get a young guy that wants to build muscle up to load wood, these guys love that kind of work. Pay him just enough to buy energy drinks  ;D

[CJ Porter]

I'm 30 years old and fit as a fiddle.
I run cattle and run equipment for my day jobs. I can handle the work.

All I'm going to do is fell the trees limb them and cut the trunks and big limbs to length. I'm not going to touch the small stuff right now.  3' is the maximum length. I will cut every thing to sizes I can handle.

[John Mc]

Lumberjack48 -

I'm curious why you recommend the Picco chain, rather than one of the others. I always assumed that was designed for smaller saws. The low-profile chains I've run did not seem to clear the chips as well when cutting larger wood. On the other hand, I haven't run much of them... I typically run .325 pitch chisel on my 50 cc saw, and .375 pitch chisel on my larger saws (both are round-ground chisel chain - I've run a bit of square-ground chisel, and was impressed, but it's just too much of a hassle for me to deal with in the field. If I were doing it for a living, I might feel differently.) So as far as the Picco on larger saws go, please educate me -- what do you see as the advantages and disadvantages? Maybe I'll give it another try.

As far a the carbide impregnated chain... I had no idea you could sharpen it with a good hand file (or is someone selling diamond impregnated files now?) Another thing I guess I should look in to.  On the other hand, I do suffer from "Weekend Warrior" syndrome, and stopping to sharpen my chain is a good way to force me to take a break and asses how well I'm holding up while I'm working on the chain.

[lumberjack48]

john Mc i assumed the Picco was impregnated carbide chain. I was wrong this is the real thing that the fire department uses, you need a diamond wheel to sharpen it. This chain is very expensive, not something you'd buy for cutting firewood.

The impregnated carbide chain can be sharped with a file. I sold a lot of this when i had the shop. If i were to go out and cut wood now, its what would be on my saw. I haven't had much experience with low profile ether. I feel a low profile, skip tooth chisel chain, rakers 40 thous, 16000 rpm saw would cut the mustard. I think you'd get less drag with low profile. 
I sharpened my square-ground chisel with a 5/32 round file. I know here i go again, i filed a lot of chain in 30 yrs, this chain with rakes at 30 for hardw or 40 thous for softw, filed with 5/32 file cut like a razor. I was trimming the load up for my father, he asked me what kind of chain do you have, he'd never see anything cut like that.

[s grinder]

CJ Porter,You would be doing your self a favor to have a machine to load the wood,spend one day cutting,one day loading.

[John Mc]

Lumberjack48 -

With Stihl, I think Picco is just low profile chain. I believe it's the Duro chain that is carbide. Been a while since I looked at it, though.

[CJ Porter]

Well I went with the 362 with a 20' bar and for now I'm using an Oilomatic Rapid Super chain.  I took it out and ran a couple tanks through it and I am very pleased. It is plenty of saw to handle what I am doing. I cut for 2 hours and I think I got a little over half a cord ready to load in that time. I did use my 290 for limbing. I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me.

I took a couple pictures of the trees so you guys will have I better idea of what I'm doing.



  

[CJ Porter]

CJ Porter,You would be doing your self a favor to have a machine to load the wood,spend one day cutting,one day loading.

I have a skid steer I will use if anything is too heavy to load by hand.

[beenthere]

Think you did well on the saw decision.

Those trees, if they all are like the pic, are a real challenge IMO. Wish you well.

[Ianab]

Yeah, if the 20" will handle the job, then a MS362 is a good choice. Pro grade saw that will handle full time use, light and powerful etc.

My 441 advice was assuming you needed a bigger bar, but if the 20" is big enough, you got the right saw.

Trees like that are "interesting" to work with, keep your wits about you cutting them, they can create all sorts of mantraps and limbs under tension. But firewood is about all they were ever going to be good for.  ;)

Ian

[WDH]

Whoa, those trees are gnarly!

[s grinder]

Good choice of saws,thats some ugly wood to cut,be careful and plan an escape route.

[lumberjack48]

Lumberjack48 -

With Stihl, I think Picco is just low profile chain. I believe it's the Duro chain that is carbide. Been a while since I looked at it, though.

Picco all so comes in a full carbide chain. You can get the Picco up to 404 pitch chain, heres the chain chart.
http://www.stihlusa.com/chain-guide-bar/saw-chain.html

CJ Poter, be careful cutting these trees, they can be chin breakers, shin
broses and belle pushers. This kind of stuff will keep you on your toes, you need a 36" bar to stay out of harms way.

[kenskip1]

Texas that has been hit by Live Oak Wilt CJ, I have a lot of this around my area.I am in central Coleman county.Ken in Coleman

[Clam77]

We have alot of Oak up here in the midwest - What exactly are you looking for to determine if you have this wilt on your trees??  Is it a fungus on the outter bark or something?? 

Prefer not to have our trees up here getting it...    :-\

And CJ, do be careful - the last oak I cut up was an old 30" 100+ year old Red Oak.  I cut it into 2' chunks (with an MS362) to load into the truck but it still took a loader tractor to even move them on the ground - and that was with most of the tree rotten in the middle. 

[beenthere]

Clam77

Don't fret, you already have oak wilt in IA.

http://www.plantpath.iastate.edu/files/SUL15.pdf

[park ranger]

I just cut up  some maple and alder with the 440 with a 32" bar.  It cuts tons faster than my 361 or the 029 and isn't much harder to use because you don't bend over all the time.  I just hold the saw at my waist and kinda rest it on the top of the chaps.  My 361 has an opened up muffler but still sounds like a bee compared to the 440.  The 029 doesn't even get out of the shop much any more.
It was a row of 16" wood 7'x 16' long all cut with one  tank of gas and one hand sharpened chain. 

[CJ Porter]

I have no doubt that the 441 will cut faster. And I'm sure there are going to be days when I wish I had bought one. The primary  reason I went with the 362 is price. I saved $200 buying the 362. That means $200 less wood I will have to cut to pay for the new saw. In the future after I have a few cords under my belt I might decide to go get a 441 but for now I am very happy with the 362.

[beenthere]

We'd be interested in seeing pics of the operation as you proceed.  Hopefully all goes well.
Enjoy that 362.  8)

[Clam77]

Guess I'm a little behind then huh beenthere...

I see that article is dated 2005..   :D

[shortlogger]

I you decide to upgrade agin i would consider the 460 it has the same weight as the 441 but 6 hp where the 441 only has 5.5 hp but looking at the size of the trees you are cutting the 361 is proabably fine .

[lumberjack48]

CJ  wait on till all the leaves are out, then fall a bunch down. Then wait till the leaves are brown. The wood will be 50 % or more lighter. This is the quick way to get seasoned wood.

[beenthere]

lumberjack48
Wouldn't it be great if it really worked that way.  ;D

[lumberjack48]

I peeled pulp 20 yrs, we learned that if we left it tree length with the top on it lost 50% of its weight. If we sawed the top off, it lost very little weight.
There was always Ash and other hardwood mixed in with the Aspen. So as we were cutting and peeling we'd drop the hardwood, and skid it for firewood as we skidded the Aspen in the fall. The Aspen and the hardwood got so hard it was like sawing up ironwood.
About a yr before i got hurt a friend of mine wanted a pickup load of seasoned birch. I told him i didn't have any, but i was cutting Birch saw bolts. If he could wait a month i'd have a couple loads. I skidded the Birch tree length with tops, by the landing i'd measure the saw bolts out and saw the top off. I left the rest of the tree lay on till they were brown, when i cut-em up the wood was pure white and feather light, i was todly unpressed myself.

beenthere if i hadn't done this over the yrs i certainly wouldn't just pull it out of thin air.  I know that burly, limbing Oak will lose a lot of weight by doing this. This spring go drop a tree, saw a block off so you know how heavy it is. Then leave it about 2 weeks, see if it lightened up any. 

[CJ Porter]

Lumberjack,  I'm afraid most of these trees are dead or to far gone to leaf out. Most of our trees are already putting on leaves or even finished by now. It's pretty warm down here. 88 degrees for a high today. Lows have been in the 50s for a couple weeks.

[CJ Porter]

Not to mention live oaks are pretty much evergreen. They shed leaves in early spring and the new ones are coming out as the old ones fall.

[lumberjack48]

When the new leaves come out drop a few, let-em turn brown, give it a try.

[CJ Porter]

I think I have a tuning issue with the 362. It started cold no problem and if I killed it and immediately restarted it was fine, but if I killed it and let it sit for a few minutes it was hard to start. It ran well after it was started. It was pretty hot today (96°).

[JohnG28]

I had this issue with my 361 a while back.  The saw would get very hot when running hard in hot weather and then would be hard to restart. I had the high setting out as far as I could with the limiter caps but could not fix the problem until I pulled the caps and trimmed off the limiters.  After that I adjusted the carbs high setting richer and haven't had an issue since.  ;D

[lumberjack48]

Usually you would open the low jet about a 1/4 turn to cure the problem. The way it sounds on here, these new saws are set to lean to start with. So be care full with the new saw in that kind of heat, its easy to walk out of a piston. Thats my slang for scoring a piston, a Stihl dealer recommended me to run 32:1, i had saws i'd ran 8 yrs with out a problem.

Good luck, stay cool and be safe

[CJ Porter]

Well I bought a 441 yesterday and hired another wood cutter today. Hopefully we are going to start cutting a lot of wood.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, you will. That was a fast upgrade. ;)

[CJ Porter]

25 cords cut since Thursday. It's going to be hard for me to haul fast enough to keep up with my cutters. loaded 5 cords this afternoon. I haven't cut much with the 441 but my cutters say it is a wood eater. 

 

[beenthere]

Good on the cutting.

Maybe that load gets by in TX, but doubt it would pass in WI.  ;)
Too much of a chance for pieces to fall off along the road/highway.

[CJ Porter]

I'm sure a trooper would have a thing or two to say about it, but we don't get hassled much around here. It's pretty stable loaded like that I drive down about ; miles of rough ranch road before I hit pavement so everything settles in pretty good.