Logging with Horses

[etat]

Could be.   But that would be in an extreme case with a horse that was trying to hurt you.  I'm not sure I'd say he was an advocate of it, but he does have extreme solutions for the worst of horses.  I don't think Norm'd want to try some of the measures he recommended, after all it was written in the early 60's.  There is,l however, quite a bit of a usefull information in identifying and solving problems and training horses.

I have know of only one horse that my dad had to throw to shoe. Not only did they throw him, they had to completely tie him up too.  My cousin bought him and I can't remember what they called it, but he was a stud that would never dropped his b....,

Beautiful horse, but absolutely crazy.  That's one they NEVER let me get close to, and when they sold him he was as crazy as he was when my cousin bought him.

Being mean to a horse is not the right way to train, or make a friend of a horse.  That has always been my philosopy. However, there are times that you have to let the horse know that you are the boss.

[etat]

I just called my dad, I was right about the sex problem with the horse. They called the horse an 'origional'.  I have no idea if this is a correct name or not. We never used whips, clubs, or spurs, except in exteme cases where needed.  The only time I actually ever needed spurs was either with a lazy horse, or one that liked to lunge across the road with you and change directions.  You could usually tell by watching their  ears, and if you'd catch em just right, a nudge with the spurs would discourage the jumping sideways.  Wouldn't need spurs anyway with a working horse. I have seen my dad have to use a nose twist, or twist their ears more than once when shoeing.  Apparantly some farriers still use the nose twist method, because the last time I had my horse shod the guy put a twist on his nose because he was jumping around too much and wouldn't settle down.  Maybe some of them use tranquilizers now, that I don't know about as we never doped a horse.

Norm, dad said when you put bits in your horses mouth to let her wear them for at least 30 hours to get over fighting at them and get used to them.

[hosslog]

I remember the adds for Prof. Beery's books. He had a bit that he would sell you too.
I don't think that training methods have changed all that much over the years, there just aren't as many completely wild ones any more. Just horses like Norm's that somebody mishandled at some point. The trick is to try to figure out what happened and then undo the damage.

[etat]

Sorry Norm, these dont have absolutely nothing to do with logging.  That said, the little horse in the first two pictures is much much larger than she appears. Name of Ribbon.  Musta been, oh about 10 feet tall.  Now, that cowboy in the lower picture, that there's one cool cat!!!!!  Name of horse, Ranger. The horses in the lower two pictures are two different horses.  I just kinda liked them strawberry roans.  The horse with the English Saddle, That's the one that I quit fooling with horses after he got sold out from under me. Name of LUCKY, cause he was about dead when I started working with him.  I showed him with vicks salve stuffed in his nose as he was still a stud and kinda liked to cut up around them mares. Flat shod, racking classes. We built the wagon from scratch.















Horse above is Target.  Best all around trail horse I ever sat.  The horse was big, and I was small, and if ya weren't careful, we'd ride ya in the ground.  He was well trained at neck reining, or I could tun him with my knees.  American Saddle Horse. Many's the time I left home before daylight, and didn't get in until after dark on that horse.  We had no boundaries, My only instructions were to take care of the horse and be careful....... No brag, Just fact, (Will Sonnet, from the Guns of Will Sonnet) ;D

[Norm]

Thanks for the pictures ck. My dad would use some harsh measures on wild ponies. He worked at the sale barn in Eldora, IA. At the time it was known as the pony capitol of the world. Then ponies went out of favor. Once a year they would still have a horse sale. Big deal for a small town. We'd always get some wild ones in and have to deal with um. A sorting stick across the nose was his instructions for when one would try to run over you. Harsh yep but it worked. He would use the tieing up one leg and throw a saddle on them until they got used to a saddle.

I was wondering how much you folks feed your working horses. Since Becky is in foal I treat her pretty good with hay and oats with sweet feed. But one day I'd like to have few more and am considering putting up my own hay instead of buying it. I'd run a rotation on about 5 acres for the oats and hay. Can you guys give me a round about idea of what you feed to your working horses to see if it's worth it to take my land out of production. Right now I just trade storage for my renters corvette in my Morton for hay but may put up my own. I will say that Becky can pack it away. See eats like a horse. :D

[hosslog]

Norm, feeding is a whole 'nother set of books :D. Basicly I feed 2 pounds of hay for every 100 pounds of body weight  and 1 pound of grain for  every 100 pounds of body weight when they are working. Weekends I cut the grain in half and give them a little more hay. If they aren't going to work for a week or so I don't grain them at all. I buy all my hay so that breaks down to 3 to 4 kicker bales a day for my team.
If you feed round bales I would recommend that you unrap it and only feed what she will clean up. Horses tend to eat holes into the round bales and then they inhale the hay dust while they got their heads  down in the hole eating, this can cause heaves, a respitory problem . If you have several horses they will clean up the bale faster and this isn't usually a problem.

[Norm]

Thanks hosslog, I was thinking of having it cut and baled in the big bales but was concerned about it going bad with only a couple of horses to eat on it. I'd not heard of the heaves problem so I'll use the small square baler instead. It's so darned hard to know if I'm over or underfeeding. I buy a couple hundred bushels of oats in the fall and switch between a bale of good alfalfa and one of grass hay. She seems to stay at the same weight so hopefully I'm doing it right.

[Swede]

 : A lot to read. In my family are and have been some men handling horses very good. Some of what you have written I recognize, some of it I´ve heard but don´t want to recognize.
 My mothers brothers is a little famous as horsemen and their father realy was.

Remember the horse is the most shy of our tame animals. You can force a horse to anything but never trust him after that.  Mutual trusting in the work with Your horse is what you need and in some situations it´s a condition for both your lifes. To hit a horse in his head was the first I learned not to do. He will never trust (or like you) and it´s easy to kill him with your hand that way.

As a young boy I read about how an idian tamed a horse but did belive it was just a story. Some years ago i get in contact with people applying "Natural Horsemanship" (use Google!) I get very surprised finding they use the same methods! I´ve written about it earlier in # Oxen logging.
Some people can take a never handled horse into a high fence and (standing in the middle) get him to run clockwise, counter-klockwise, in a cross...........all without anything hanging on the horse or any tools in their hands. With a lot of patience the horse finally come to them and be sociable.
I think it´s the same with dogs, kids, horses and most animals. There is occasions (with a horse at least one) there come to a showdown. You may not lose the trust or the showdown. Most kids and horses you can fool into the right way and done good they don´t see through it.

I remember grown people talked about defective horses that bite or just ONE TIME had bolted. Don´t buy him! I had a horse 20 years ago who became sausage before he was 5 y.o.  : Some horses you can´t trust but he was 3 years before i get him.

A foal can run around the mare during the work. Used to be tied the first month he can even be tied in the mares harness when she is pulling a vagon early, but not for a whole day. I think my mothers brother was 6 years when he made a kind of harness and used  rims on a foal before it was 3 months. My grandparents didn´t know. ;D He even took siesta beside the foal and the mare belived she got twins  :D :D :D
Boys and horses are never to young to learn. Some children  learn very early how to get their whole world´s attention......by bitig! :D  Early trained horses you don´t have to learn very much, they are born into work. And they are not afraid of anything.

Swede.

PS. cktate, do´t take the phone tonight and ask about it! ;)

[etat]

Early trained horses you don´t have to learn very much, they are born into work. And they are not afraid of anything. !

Maybe, maybe not.  They can be startled, and if so can jump sideways, maybe say into creek full of COLD water.  Especially if you happened to be riding beside a corn field and someone say happened to crank and rev up a cornpicker just out of sight of you and the horse.  You might find yourself astride that horse right in the middle of the creek.  . Now if that little creek had real steep banks I think you'd find that both you the horse would decide that that wasn't the place you wanted to be.  

[etat]

per swede you can absolutely work the horse with the colt in tow, in fact it's good for the colt



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unlike per swede, this horse was 9 years old.  As a 2 and 3 year old this horse won a roomful of trophies.  Then the owner sold this horse to a man who bought him for his daughter. As this was a very spirited horse the daughter was unable to ride.  The horse stayed pastured for years, without being rode, or handled.  The person who then bought this horse when attempting to ride, wound up getting hurt, horse went down on him and broke his leg.  He contacted me about retraining the horse.

The struggle was  on, At first I only dared mount the horse in deep plowed up fields, or with dad holding a lead rein (luckily it was the fall of the year and all crops were in).  Bad habits included rearing up, trying to run away, and not wanting to listen to or learn commands.  I rode this horse absolutely EVERY day for appx. 7 months, rain, or shine.  EVERY time I showed at first folks who knew the horse would get out of the way when I rode into the ring, it would be a short rodeo, usually a couple of loops around the ring.  Then the horse would settle down and work, and show.  When I turned the horse back over to the owner I could get on the horse in the pasture with a halter, and ride to the barn bareback.  The most difficult trick was learning how the original commands had been taught to the horse years ago, he did remember.  You would never kick this horse, he'd try to unseat you.  He best responded to voice commands.  Walk, Fast Walk, Stop (not whoa) stop, bring it down if you wanted him to slow down, stretch out if you wanted him to stand, etc.  It took months for me to learn 'all' the needed information and understand the horse. When I returned the horse to the owner, he was unable to grasp the absolute needs to learn these commands and understand the horse.  I wound up accompanying him to the sale so I could ride the horse and show the buyers what he was capable of.


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A young horse  halter broke and trained to stand




Again, while this has absolutely nothing to do with logging, methods used to initially communicate with and train any horse would be similar. I was always best at training and riding.  Solving problems and knowing what to do next and how to go about it was an absolute specialty of my dad's.  To quote an old cliché, he's forgotten more about training horses than I ever knew. When I had a problem with a horse I ALWAYS consulted him.  Hence the phone calls.  He originally bought Prof. Berries books back in the 60's to try to TEACH ME, as I was pretty stubborn and hard headed, not unlike many horses.

[Norm]

Swede I'm going to tell Patty's fat horse if she don't straighten up she's going to the sausage factory. :D  In the US we don't eat horse meat but they used to kid about em going to the glue factory. At the sale barn we'd have people that would bring in the pet pony they didn't want anymore. After it would sell they'd come back to make sure it was going to a good home. Most times they were bought for slaughter and shipped to Canada. We would never say anything if asked.

Are drafts prone to any problems the first time they foal? I remember some breeds have to have some help the first time but wasn't sure about the big drafts. Patty is going to be gone when Becky is supposed to have her colt. I'm not fond of pulling colts and something that big would be worse. Maybe I'll just put the vet on speed dial.

[Swede]

"In the US we don't eat horse meat"
 
Norm, In Sweden we don´t know when we are eating horse meat.   How do You know in these days when food is an industry?
No iron chips in the sausage is no evidence!
 :D :D :D
Swede.

[etat]

 :D :D :D :D

First lesson I had in horse trading. My dad went to buy a horse, he'd done told me how much he'd give. I was about 4 or 5 years old.  Of course I wanted him to buy the horse.  They're trading, and jewing back and forth.  I think things are moving too slow, and blurt out "Well dad said he'd give 'x amount of dollars'.  Kinda busted up dad's trading plan, but he did buy the horse.  

I had it explained to me by the seat of my britches why that sometimes you just oughta keep your mouth shut.  I've been given the impression many many times in my life that maybe that's just one lesson I never did completely learn.  

[hosslog]

Norm, I haven't foaled to many mares  but the ones I did never had any problems. The ones I had were cross' between light horses and drafts bred back to a part morgan stallion.

Swede, Do my horses in under my name look anything like the Ardennes that you mentioned?

ck,Enjoy your pictures.Musta been a terrible childhood. :D :D :D :D

[SwampDonkey]

A whiffletree (which means single tree) is what we use to yard logs with, hooked to a horse's harness with chains. Off the whiffle-tree is a chain connected from a hook on the whiffle-tree. That chain has a hook of its own you wrap the log with.

Some notes on production and costs of horse logging

http://www.unb.ca/web/standint/nbcc/machine/skidding/jmoore_b.html

[Swede]

hosslog;

I can´t see on that picture.  
With all that white in their face I´ll guess there is some "Clydesdale" in them. Clydesdale come from a walley in Scotland but are mixed up with some other big breeds from the European continent.
Do you know their history?

"Ardenner" comes from the Beligian highlands. "Ardennerna" in Swedish.
"Nordsvensk"  is from Sweden and Norway and there is two different tribes. One for harness racing and one heavy for pullig. They are very strenuous and have no problem with the climate in the north.
These are the two breeds we use in the woods here.
 
http://bwiberg.dyndns.org/skdm2002.shtml  
http://home.no/arbeidshesten/bilder.html
http://hem.passagen.se/skbard/redskap.htm
(enlarge the nice pictures!)

..........and: http://www.belgiancorp.com/    

Swede.

[hosslog]

Thanks for the pictures Swede.
My horses are Belgians. Not sure if they would be considered the same  breed as your Ardenners or not. The belgians here have been bred to have more white markings, makes them prettier in the show ring.
I don't know  much about the clydesales except that they came here from scotland. Not many clydes are used for logging  here in the states.Mostly they are  just used for showing.
I know this is way off the logging topic but I gotta ask- How does that hay basket work that is pictured in the no/arbeidsheten/bilder link?

[etat]

Swede, I REALLY enjoyed your pictures.  Thanks!

[Swede]

Thank You cktate! I like them too remembering old days. If I had more time I´ll buy a horse this afternoon. It takes two hours a day or more making a horse of a foal  :( and writing in English takes me some time :D

Hosslog; Is there a little different history behind your horses and our?
About 110 years ago they took ardenners (=belgians I think) into Sweden because it´s a heavier horse than what we had. Some they hold as a clean bread but at coutryside they mixed them to what they had just for geting a better draft horse.
At the same time, I think, they in the north get horses from Norway for the same reason. 50 years ago the tractors came and they hold horses more as pets. After that there is more breeds here, most small horses but we also get some big as shire. I think the "show standard" today for ardenners  are smaller than they was when I was young.
It seems that everyone living at countryside (not me) have a horse irrespective of how poor they are. Some of them you can use for anything, many is not handeled, and I don´t know where people get money for it. Perhaps they eat hay :


The red wagon/haybasket? It picks the hay up from the ground and load it to the basket. Pulling it upwards the hay would be very packed I think.

Swede.

[Norm]

Thanks for the sites Swede, lots of fun to see folks on your side of the world. I should have titled this working with horses so anyone that likes horses would post here. I always stray from the original topic so I was interested in the hay basket too. Growing up we had a neighbor that had belgians. He would work some ground with them but mostly used them for haying. Not sure he was even 5' tall but he could work those horses like no other. Never heard him raise his voice. Wish he was still alive.  

[slowzuki]

SwampDonkey,  our group worked with Dr. Pierre Zundel on designing a horse drawn logging skidder a while ago.  It turned out he wanted a grappel skidder so the horse could be more efficient moving small logs.  Didn't quite get designed, the balance of using a 2 wheeled cart and the reduced manouverability tanked the project.

A cart with loader powered by a little engine was more efficient for small stuff.
Ken

A whiffletree (which means single tree) is what we use to yard logs with, hooked to a horse's harness with chains. Off the whiffle-tree is a chain connected from a hook on the whiffle-tree. That chain has a hook of its own you wrap the log with.

Some notes on production and costs of horse logging

http://www.unb.ca/web/standint/nbcc/machine/skidding/jmoore_b.html

[hosslog]

Swede, Belgians here have been bred for color. they are all some shade of sorrel.Ranges from blonde to dark red.No more bay or roan.In the late '60's or early 70's a couple imported some Belgian horses from Belgium to get some new blood into the breed here. They were to different,much heavier boned and more muscled, no white markings, so they have become almost a seperate breed called Brabant


Slowzuki, Did you notice the picture of the  arch that Swede posted? I have never used one but I understand that it is very efficient moving multiple stems with one horse.

[Swede]

I´ve been looking for the stuff we hooked behind the horses 40 years ago. I found "Domänsaxen" but the excellent iron toboggan with brake and small hard rubber wheels in back end for use in the summer, the toboggan reared when pulled......... :P
Think I have to draw one for you when I got time.

Last spring there was no work i my workshop. Had to work with electrical and as a pipe-fitter. This year is to much, I´m booked up 3 months now and the customers wants their machines in three weeks!
And I want to run Amerika-Sågen!! :-/

Swede.

[Swede]

Norm_F.

Some secrets in working with horses is to keep quiet!  ;) When the horse is up to a mischief just one short word is enough, reminding him You are there and something is going on. They have good ears and turn them around all the time and their eyes is placed on the side of their head. They can feel a lot happening around that you and me can´t.
I have not tryed but been told that some practice in Natural Horsemanship (NH) is to not use rein but make the gestures. Hold your arms  in front so there is a 130 degree angle between.
Turning left: make gesture as holding a glass in your left hand and pour milk in it. After some practising You can hold your elbows close to your body.

Swede.

[Norm]

One thing I've noticed since we've had Becky here on the farm is how good a horse's vision is. She doesn't miss anything. If there's something near the pasture within a mile or so she will spot it. Her hearing is the next best sense after sight. You don't sneak up on her. Our late neighbor had belgians that were very blond in color with some dapple in them. Becky is very well proportioned, her head is not jug headed like so many quarters and paints. Our neighbor and friends rode their quarters over last fall to say hi. Standing next to her they looked like toy horses.

Swede it is good to be busy, I always worry in our business if the phone doesn't ring. I'd rather be a little behind than sitting there with nothing to do. Good to hear things are going well for you.