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Climate Change

Started by terry f, April 15, 2012, 12:30:44 AM

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terry f

       For those who believe in climate change or global warming, is their anything you are doing or changeing in your practices, like going to more drought tolerent trees when you replant. I'm favoring the ponderosa pine and western larch when I thin, but I'm in a dry area already. We have a drought every few years, so I think most of the trees I have should be able to take any changes to come. Tonich posted a good video a few days ago that had some interesting ways of keeping water in the ground, that made sense to me. Water will be the key.

Okrafarmer

If there is serious climate change, I tend to think rainfall will be rather unpredictable. The sun will still be shining, there will still be oceans, and the sun will still evaporate water and the clouds will still go somewhere around the earth and release the water in them when the conditions present themselves. Unless the sun stops shining, it can't help but evaporate water, and sooner or later that water must condense and fall to the surface. Local weather patterns could very well change drastically, but if the global climate is experiencing that degree of upheaval, then I don't think we will be at all able to predict what places will become drier and which will become wetter. I suspect the parts of the world that are currently the driest will tend to remain among the driest places, and the places that tend to be wettest will tend to remain among the wettest. the biggest factors that could effect change are a significant change in the proportion of land area to sea area (also involving the level of the ocean rising or falling) and changes in the sun itself. Tremendous amounts of particulate matter in the atmosphere can also make big changes-- like if there were multiple volcanos around the world at the same time, or if all the coal in the world were burned in a single year, or something like that.

I definitely believe there will be some massive global climate changes occurring in the future, but if we got into WHY I believe that, this thread would be unceremoniously moved to the restricted topics forum. I am guessing that if anyone tries to say why they do or don't believe in global climate change, this thread could get moved there too.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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SwampDonkey

From the perspective of an ex activist, not always environmentalist. For instance, saving whales is not environmentalism. You don't have to believe the message in the video, but you might think for yourself a little. ;)

Greenpeace's Ex-President - Is Climate Change Fake? - Patrick Moore | Modern Wisdom Podcast 373 - YouTube

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Roxie

The topic doesn't always dictate whether a thread will be moved, so let's keep this discussion (of great importance to many members) from descending into political arguments. 

Our members are awesome and perfectly capable of sharing their thoughts without moving this thread. 

That being said, personally I am a fence sitter on climate change. I also saw the video that SwampDonkey shared and know massive changes have been going on for eons but I do get very concerned about the trash in our oceans. There's so much we should be doing in conservation of our resources. 

Say when

nativewolf

If I lived in the Southwest I would, if my title came with water rights, be very focused on systems to store water.   I'd keep my tree spacing out and look at more arid climates to understand what might work in the future if the SW keeps drying and getting hotter.  Find someplace a bit hotter and with even less rainfall.  It could be that normal trees just wont make it so you'll be looking for tree desert friendly trees.  I'm not really up on desert trees so I can't recommend anything.  

I see today that farmers across the SW are being notified (multiple water districts) of cutbacks or cut offs.  A very real possibility is that veggies get more expensive.   I'll be putting in a greenhouse this spring for growing veggies year round, if veggies get more expensive it's just a benefit but I've always enjoyed greenhouses.  
Liking Walnut

mike_belben

Dead soil wont retain moisture.  It requires a living soil microbiome to produce the soil aggregation that produces not only the porosity to hold necessary air and water to sustain plant and microbial life, but also the "glues" that bind soil particles together so they arent washed out or settled into tremendous compaction by rains.  I wouldnt ask permission.  Every gutter i could scavenge would go to buried totes behind my fence and a sump pump would irrigate off solar. Drip irrigators wouldnt even be visible. Theyd be covered in strawbale or anything to make a degradeable shade and keep the water in.  Cardboard with dirt to hold it down if i had nothing else. 


In a desert environment one should be looking at any free resources available to cover the ground in carbon and nitrogen bearing materials in any ratio.  Any is better than none. Starting where any living root is and fanning out from there would be the way to go. Any sort of wood product, animal waste, landscape waste, hay, straw... Even torn down building lumber will cover the soil, cool the dirt temp and slow evaporation which allows bacteria and fungi a chance to rebuild.  

Any weed that will grow is beneficial in this endeavor.  It requires a root exudate to feed the microbial life.  Plant life cannot sustain if microbes are not fed by a living root.

Sawdust in the desert would cost a premium if the masses understood soil biology. It should be going there by the traincar.  With just sawdust and poop a forest could be grown in arizona in a century or two and the temps would come down and humidity come up, sustaining other life.

If i were tasked with it, i would start in any little spec of natural shade available.  If there was none i would pile boulders to make some.  The sun is a real brute when you arent protected from it but it is also the giver of life here.
Praise The Lord

DMcCoy

Directly to your question - I logged this summer about 4 acres, clearcut with a few seed tress left standing- Douglas fir, western red cedar, western hemlock, and a rare tree called Tsuga mertensiana subsp. mertensiana var. jeffreyi - Jeffrey's mountain hemlock.  We are right at 1000 feet and Jefferey's mountain hemlock is an odd tree, built for heavy snow with short branches about 12' long.  To me it's an indicator of climate change-ability in that nature is covering her bases, we don't get mountain snows here today.  This tree is here because at some point it had an advantage.
The state forester said I should plant 'Valley Pine' - a drier climate tree that will withstand being submerged during winter.  He recommended against Western Red Cedar.  Both he and the logger said cedars are dying. We keep track of rainfall.  We get on average 86" of rain per year making us a temperate rain forest.  Cedar's thrive here.  The last couple of years have been drier than normal but this year is starting out very wet.
I'm on the fence about climate change as well.  I've been burnt by predictions.  Do we really know for fact what will happen in the future?  How many centuries ago did we think the world was flat?  I'm not saying we don't have an impact, we obviously do.  I just don't believe we are near as smart as we think we are.  Plants love carbon dioxide up to a point.  Perhaps the earth will shed us humans like dead skin.  Who really knows...
So...I'm planting western red cedar, big leaf maple, and vine because I don't know.  Everyone thinks I'm crazy, but maples and cedars have been shown to have a mycorrhizal soil relationship in research done by Susan Simmard in B.C Canada.  Perhaps my cedars are doing great because we also have a large percentage of both big leaf and vine maples.  I will also mix in a few Douglas fir and western hemlock.  What I get from the seed trees remains to be seen.
https://mothertreeproject.org/
I will be long gone by the time my forest gets cut again.  I have no idea if I'm going the right direction or not.  I'm surrounded by Weyerhauser douglas fir reprod monocrop.  They also fertilized by helicopter last year.  This looks like a disaster waiting to happen- to me.
My 2 cents...fwiw

moodnacreek

In the first half of my life summer droughts where expected  and so was ice skating in winter or even late fall.  Frost doesn't come now until November. Late blight is a problem now and termites and ppb are everywhere not to mention ticks. Things have really changed.

Claybraker

Around here the issue is sea level rise. 10" observed since 1935 might not sound like much to folks that live in nose bleed altitudes of 15-20' ASL. Salt water encroachment doesn't care if you believe in it or not. This could be the last pine crop, next might be oysters.

grabber green

Just yesterday I was standing in a coal strip mine pit thats around 3000ft elevation , looking at 4 petrafied trees in the highwall ,still standing vertical where they grew ,incased in sandstone that has sea shell fossils , with the root ball of the trees below the coal seam  that contains a few fish fossils .                                              This is on land that is owned by a large company that sold the state a conservation easment so they wouldn't have to pay land taxes ,while they pump the gas and oil from underground ,while they clear cut the timber . This is all behind signs that the state hung up that say " all  natural features protected".    We have bigger things to worry about than natural climate change.

snobdds

I think climate change has been lumped as one term for; weather, pollution, and climate cycles.   Does the climate change, absolutely it's been the one constant for millions of years.  Is our current change due to cyclical weather patterns or pollution?  

I'm reading a book right now from a forester in California.  He studied the trees in California and determined the last warming cycle in the 1600's burned most of the forest on the west coast.  However, that fire lead to the reforestation we see today.  He made the case that warming periods are mother natures way of clearing out the dead and sick and starting anew. 

In Wyoming, we are the head waters for 3 major rivers; the Platte, the Colorado, the snake...and to a large degree the Missouri.  We have no snow yet this year.  I have never been able to get into my cabin past early November...I will be going up next weekend as their is no snow to go snowboarding yet.  The down river towns that relay upon this snowpack to fill the reservoirs is going to be very sparse this year. 

Cyclical weather patterns have been the biggest factor in migration.  I bet we start to see more people move out of the SW and to the east coast as there is not going to be enough water to sustain a large population. 

The west needs moisture and bad. 

SwampDonkey

In my area, the last two 30 year climate data cycles has not changed our growing zones for New Brunswick. That's the key, it just doesn't happen that quick. There is nothing new with adverse weather events. We only remember things outside of what we perceive as normal. But also the bulk of data is from the neighborhood. Vast areas are not accounted for because no one is there or they are simply trying to exist. Chasing temperature swings on thermometers or rain drops in a vessel doesn't put food on the table. There was a period in the 1800's the Canadian prairies were bone dry, no water to float a canoe for the fur trade. Roman docks built on water front in southern England or western France, high and dry now. That's not millions of years ago.

And you can not tame mother nature for your own will, sooner or later it bites back. Flooding of low land or not enough water to divert anymore for food and consumption. If you want to grow stuff in a desert or make cities there, fill in slews of prairie wetland, dike everything up, sooner or later the carrying capacity is met and trying to force more out of it accelerated it's decline.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mike_belben

i wont make it political per se, but please no one forget that those who do want to get their way, will manipulate any data they can.  i hope none of you have forgetten the university of east anglia being caught cooking the climate data info as the trusted guardians of the planet.  they have an idealogical ulterior motive.

 i trust the hearsay and memories we exchange here among normal people without an ulterior motive, more than anyone in a position of authority.  when you have a motive, you seek a position of authority to carry it out from.

in trying to troubleshoot a disease, ive incidentally learned how proctor and gamble, marketers of the first seed oil to food product, propped up the american heart association to recommend their product- crisco.  and how the 100 years of data now shows a complete correlation with increasing disease/obesity as we left animal fats and butter for the "healthier vegetable oils" en masse.  

so slightly off topic but a great reminder that trusting experts with intentions can be deadly.  i know which side to believe when i see how many very fat kids are in my childrens school today vs how few there were in 1985 or 90
Praise The Lord

HemlockKing

I'm pretty much where mikes at with this in above comment, I know it's happening, I also know governments and corps will use climate change to syphin more wealth from the working people, because that's what they do with everything, always about $$.

That being said I choose to move on my grandfathers land out in the boonies because it's rich in soil, trees, water, wildlife, lots of rolling hills and good drainage, elevation of 40meters at the lowest points, up to 80m, so with all that said I do believe I won't need to worry about ocean taking over my land after I pass it on to kids, and it certainly wouldn't be hard to live off of if we had a collapse of society or extreme events. I come from fisherman family so they all live within 1km of the coast, the towns too. 
A1

ehp

guys take a compass and head for the north pole and let me know how far off you miss it , your going to miss it by a lot larger number than most will ever think . 

Stephen1

I have watched for a long time...climate change....I built some raised gardens in the last 3 years. It has been a while since I had a garden. I never used to have time. I will keep doing it now as I will make time. I like the idea of a green house. I like the idea of growing more of my own food so I do not have to rely on moving food from the south or any where else in the world to my table. I am not sure it will help the enviroment, but it will definitly help my pocket book.
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SwampDonkey

Quote from: ehp on December 03, 2021, 07:48:08 PM
guys take a compass and head for the north pole and let me know how far off you miss it , your going to miss it by a lot larger number than most will ever think .
True north is always different from magnetic north. True north is when you use declination and declination changes over time. That declination written on a map 40 years ago, ain't the same as today or 40 years in the future. ;) Used to use 22W a few years ago, now it's less than 19W in this area. Be off 4 degees on decl. and try to compass a line projected by your GPS. Your GPS accounts for decl. You will veer off the line.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mudfarmer

Have done a bunch of reading about beavers the past few years, they address a lot of the points in this thread and should not be overlooked. North America used to be lousy with them until we near wiped them out.

They slow runoff, reduce sedimentation, increase grazing, create habitat for an amazing number of other creatures and  very importantly drive water into the ground.

Out west their have been some successful and some not reintroduction and relocation projects, even some cattle ranchers started getting on board after seeing the changes.

Full disclosure, as a young man I trapped some for the fur trade and ripped out some dams for other reasons. That is the prevailing attitude towards beavers here, "they are a nuisance, get rid of them". My tune has completely changed and now try to sing the praises of the beaver to anyone that will listen. You won't catch me disturbing them now and more likely to find me helping them out. Bought more land last year just full of em!!

As wood cutters and geoengineers they are our kindred spirits so everyone maybe try to consider giving your pals the beavers a little slack. Especially if you are concerned about drought, fish, and floods.

A good book to get your tail wet would be Eager by Ben Goldfarb. This one has a lot of info about the work that beavers are doing to try to help us fix the west after we over grazed, eroded and otherwise messed a bunch of stuff up. 

mike_belben

those are pretty good points. in the northeast parcels are so small and built on every possible nook that a beaver can be the permanent flooding of your basement or take the majority of your sub 1 acre parcel.  

the more land one has the easier it is to coexist with them.  certainly they are pretty wise about where they work.  you never see a beaver felling up on the hill
Praise The Lord

SwampDonkey

I've got beavers on both ends of the place. One family wants to flood the road, the ones on the back are welcome to it, they are confined to about a 2 ha area of low land bordered by productive forest. It was cedar ground, but it's beaver ground now. Otters, that's all you need to keep things in check. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Stephen1

I have 'Bob the Beaver' swim by us at the lake all the time. They live in the river and the delta swamp into my small lake, they have 2 dams above us and another family controls the drainage. We have lots of 'cottagers' that are always crying about the beaver, they are eating my trees, saplings, water is to high, my waterfront is flooding, they always want someone to go bust the dam to drain our lake a few inches. 
Last summer/fall Cathy and I, we would wake up at the cabin, have coffee and chat, then I would see 'Bob' swimming home. I always commented, there goes Bob after a hard nights work heading home.  It wasn't till I was doen by the waterfront at the far end of the property that I discovered Bob had been eating all my saplings  :D  :). I found about 20 fresh beaver chewed saplings. Bob would hear us wake up and leaving his work project and head for home. No big deal as I find Mother Nature does a good job of growing new trees. I  love living in Nature. 
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barbender

We are overpopulated with them in my area. No fur market and lots of their favorite tree, aspen, to munch on so they are just filling the habitat. Unfortunately in flat country their dams cover huge areas and kill a lot of timber. One of my friends does a lot of nuisance  beaver work, he stays pretty busy in the summer.
Too many irons in the fire

Southside

I have two creeks that run through or along the farm and one of them has been really messed up for about 30 years when a hurricane knocked down a bunch of timber and caused the creek to oxbow, re-route, and basically turn some nice low ground into a mud puddle, dank black water, mosquito farm, mess.  Anyway, last year a beaver or two moved into that area and built a nice series of dams, returning the creek to its original banks, cutting off all the break out flows, and flooded a little shelf.  I was quite happy to see them, yes they did cut some timber, but that amount of work would have cost me a lot more than the value of what they felled.  Sadly they left, but the shelf they flooded created the absolute best grazing I have after the water receded.    
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Tarm

To answer terry f's question;
I'm replacing white spruce and balsam fir with white pine.
Adding white oak to my red oak plantings.
Trying some bald cypress in logged black ash swamps.
Keeping the basal area in my red pine plantations on the low side to improve drought tolerance.

I'm in NE WI right on the edge of zone 4/5.

SwampDonkey

Up here there have been some videos created aimed to eradicate balsam fir. Well, I'm not in that camp. I don't see the decline they portray. First off their portrayal is always in dense thickets or understory stunted stuff. Then they will pick a couple dead stubs with the red needles still on and make it their show case for their message. My woodlot is managed, it is being thinned all the time. I have 1000's a chalk white healthy fir roughly 30-40 years old. I'm removing the junk now, in a  second thinning since the first thinning 10-15 years ago. The mentality in the last 30-40 years has been to do nothing unless government rewards me. Then cry about the state of things. I have thinned a lot of junk fir on mill ground and crown. How anyone thinks a fir with rotten heart wood today magically makes white lumber in 30 years is beyond imagination. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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