property lines

[snowstorm]

yes i have another land question. i bought 75 ac. the house and 25ac sold before i bought mine. it was all together before. i have found all the lines except one. the north west line is now 2 lines. one is where i was told by the former owner it was. the owner next to me also says its there. but a year after i bought it another one appeared 300' south of it. i talked to the surveyor. he didnt do anything on my ground but he did the house and 25ac. he wouldnt really say he put the new line in. but he thinks it is right. so this would mean according to him the person i bought it from owns 3ac that they dont know they own? my deed says 825' on the rd if i use the new line its 1000' the old line 1320'            so what should i do????? 

[beenthere]

Snowstorm
Care to draw out what you have, and where these old and new lines are located?
That would certainly help answer your question.

But bottom line, I'd be visiting my own surveyor or a real estate lawyer and see about getting it straightened out if possible.

Either you want to protect what you own or possibly do own, or determine what the next step is to establish the same.

[thecfarm]

I sure don't know the laws. But I do know deeds. The deed is right. Or mine are. I know they can be contested in court,but what can't be? Do the past deeds read the same? It should go back to another deed.

[Ron Wenrich]

Sometimes deeds are wrong.  They just don't match up with what's on the ground.  I never could understand how a piece of paper takes precedence over what's on the ground and agreed to.  I worked one property where the deed had a leg missing. 

If it is in agreement that the line is at a certain point, have an quit claim with your neighbor to get things back in order on your deeds.  It would get your deed back to what's on the ground.  There may have been a mistake in the original deed.

[thecfarm]

My Father and me marked out many acres with a rope.With the measurements of a deed. I can remember realtors and land owners coming to my Father growing up to show them where the lines were.  : My grandparents owned alot of land at one time.

[Ron Wenrich]

I had a timber sale on a property where the original deed was mapped out in 1792.  Those metes and bounds were the standard until a surveyor took the original deed and laid out the property.  He walked us to corners that were obviously old.  He said he didn't know what that corner was, but he established a new one in a different location, sometimes only a few feet away.  I knew what those old corners were.  They were the property corners.

The difference in technology in that 190 years was immense.  The current surveyor used a laser for measurements.  1792 they used an iron chain.  If its cold, they contract.  Distance wasn't an exact measurement.  Bearings might be different now due to a shift in the magnetic fields. 

I used to be pretty good at finding corners with a hand compass and pace.  Whenever I had a surveyor do any work, my instructions were to find the corners, then put that into a correct deed.

[snowstorm]

thanks for the help ron. i still think something is up with the surveyor. his name is on my deed as if he surveyed my land. i called him in august left a message after 3 weeks i called again 2 weeks later he calls. says stop in i should be here. he lives 7 miles away. he says no i didnt do anything with your lot. what i find odd is the deed is pretty vague. it says north westerly or south easterly until you get to the new line then it says 35degrees north just isnt worded like the rest of the deed or like it was written 150 yrs ago. first week in sept he told me he would be here on friday. hasnt showed yet   

[thecfarm]

I have had land surveyed on a couple sides of me. There should be numbers-letters on the plastic caps of the corners pins so you can locate the surveyor. The ones that I have looked at are red.

[Ron Wenrich]

Time for a new surveyor.  In our state, you have to be licensed to be a surveyor.  All civil engineers are automatically surveyors.  We ran into an engineer that did some gratis work for a Girl Scout camp.  He messed it up. 

I've run into those deeds that state a direction instead of a bearing.  If you have established corners to run to, that shouldn't be hard to amend.  As long as you and your neighbor agree on the corner, and no other landowners are involved, it shouldn't be hard to solve. 

[SuperDuty335]

Sometimes deeds are wrong.  They just don't match up with what's on the ground.  I never could understand how a piece of paper takes precedence over what's on the ground and agreed to.  I worked one property where the deed had a leg missing. 

If it is in agreement that the line is at a certain point, have an quit claim with your neighbor to get things back in order on your deeds.  It would get your deed back to what's on the ground.  There may have been a mistake in the original deed.

In the context of metes and bounds surveying (the Public Land Survey System is a strange animal to me and certainly not part of my expertise):
You are correct in saying that errors occur occasionally when deeds are written. Any "professional" surveyor worth his salt would apply the rules of construction of the deed(s) to determine the true boundary. (BOUNDARIES, by the way are a matter of FACT - PROPERTY is a matter of LAW. Surveyors are to act as FACT finders). The order of controlling elements of a deed are generally
1. Intent of the deed (this would apply to the story above about the missing line)
2. Natural monuments
3. Artificial monuments
4. Course
5. Distance
6. Acreage
As much as it pains me to say it, a lot of surveyors have traded their brains for lasers. This applies to the surveyor who set a new "corner" beside every original stone pile because he measured it to that spot; refer to controlling elements above and please never hire that guy again.
It is my opinion and advice to you all to hire a PROFESSIONAL land surveyor if a line is remotely in question. Find a pro who understands boundary law and knows how to apply it. Never attempt to survey a property yourself, especially using makeshift GPS gadgets; there is much more to it than just measuring. Besides, the law agrees with me (at least in NC):

§ 89C-23.  Unlawful to practice engineering or land surveying without licensure; unlawful use of title or terms; penalties; Attorney General to be legal adviser.
Any person who shall practice, or offer to practice, engineering or land surveying in this State without first being licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Chapter, or any person, etc etc...

[reride82]

Sometimes deeds are wrong.  They just don't match up with what's on the ground.  I never could understand how a piece of paper takes precedence over what's on the ground and agreed to.  I worked one property where the deed had a leg missing. 

If it is in agreement that the line is at a certain point, have an quit claim with your neighbor to get things back in order on your deeds.  It would get your deed back to what's on the ground.  There may have been a mistake in the original deed.

In the context of metes and bounds surveying (the Public Land Survey System is a strange animal to me and certainly not part of my expertise):
You are correct in saying that errors occur occasionally when deeds are written. Any "professional" surveyor worth his salt would apply the rules of construction of the deed(s) to determine the true boundary. (BOUNDARIES, by the way are a matter of FACT - PROPERTY is a matter of LAW. Surveyors are to act as FACT finders). The order of controlling elements of a deed are generally
1. Intent of the deed (this would apply to the story above about the missing line)
2. Natural monuments
3. Artificial monuments
4. Course
5. Distance
6. Acreage
As much as it pains me to say it, a lot of surveyors have traded their brains for lasers. This applies to the surveyor who set a new "corner" beside every original stone pile because he measured it to that spot; refer to controlling elements above and please never hire that guy again.
It is my opinion and advice to you all to hire a PROFESSIONAL land surveyor if a line is remotely in question. Find a pro who understands boundary law and knows how to apply it. Never attempt to survey a property yourself, especially using makeshift GPS gadgets; there is much more to it than just measuring. Besides, the law agrees with me (at least in NC):

§ 89C-23.  Unlawful to practice engineering or land surveying without licensure; unlawful use of title or terms; penalties; Attorney General to be legal adviser.
Any person who shall practice, or offer to practice, engineering or land surveying in this State without first being licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Chapter, or any person, etc etc...

SuperDuty,
It sounds as if we have another Registered Land Surveyor on the Forum! I know of at least one other. Welcome, pull up a stump, and introduce yourself. What brings you to the Forestry Forum?

Levi

[pappy19]

yes i have another land question. i bought 75 ac. the house and 25ac sold before i bought mine. it was all together before. i have found all the lines except one. the north west line is now 2 lines. one is where i was told by the former owner it was. the owner next to me also says its there. but a year after i bought it another one appeared 300' south of it. i talked to the surveyor. he didnt do anything on my ground but he did the house and 25ac. he wouldnt really say he put the new line in. but he thinks it is right. so this would mean according to him the person i bought it from owns 3ac that they dont know they own? my deed says 825' on the rd if i use the new line its 1000' the old line 1320'            so what should i do?????

You should ask for a copy of the surveyed plat for that 25 acres. Chances are, he had to register it at the county assessor's office anyway because there was a split in the original 100 acre parcel.

Also, on any mete & bounds description from a deed and checking on the ground, most of the time there will be differences. The best way to take care of a situation like a boundary despute, is to get with your neighbor and agree to a boundary, then get it surveyed and the plat registered at the courthouse. Then have an attorney draw up a Boundary Agreement with a copy of the registered plat attached as an Exhibit "A". Just remember that a fence ain't always the real property boundary.

[Phorester]

 

This is the worst problem I have personally encountered with deed desctiptions. This is a property I was working on in the 1980's for which I had a very hard time finding the boundary lines.  I finally deceded to draw out a scaled plat using the bearings as written in the deed.  The worst mistake I found is that one bearing was reversed 180 degrees.  But there were other mistakes too.

Upper right corner is drawn from original deed bearings.  Below that is my correcterd version. 

[John Mc]

Some good software to do that drawing is Map My Land ($80).  Among other things, if you put in a starting point, and then enter bearings and distances, it will draw out the boundaries for you.  It also has a Google Earth interface, so you can display the map on Google Earth.

No connection to the company. I used the software a few years ago and found it helpful.

[Ron Wenrich]

That's the way I did all my forestry work was from the deed bearings and drawing a plat plan.  I usually didn't have too much trouble finding the lines or corners.  But, the worst case I had was where the deed omitted a line.  I've seen those E should have been W lines also, but usually never on a long line. 

I eventually got in the habit of looking up adjoining deeds to see if they agreed.  Good rainy day work.  That's how I figured out about the missing line.  That, and we couldn't see our ribbons from our starting point when we finished up.

[pappy19]

Most of us that do alot of deed and title work use "Deed Plotter" by Greenbrier. Once you put in the bearing/distances you can add easement locations as an overlap. We use it on most of our cross country pipeline projects.

[SwampDonkey]

Never knew that software was still around. I used it years ago when measuring silviculture with string box and compass. I think at the time we received a working copy from the programmer as I worked for non-profit. Might have been field testing so to speak, I don't remember the details and I think I picked it up after the fact. I've used GPS for 16 years now.

But we have to remember we are not surveyors (most of us in this thread). Where I'm from any boundary tampering without a surveyors license is an illegal act. We can only do work on 'management boundaries' and cannot call them property lines. We can do line maintenance by brushing out an existing line that is well established or freshen up the paint. Sticking things in the ground and making your own boundary marks can land you in some trouble. I have seen some real messes by landowner turned surveyor. ;) I've been in meetings with registered surveyors over such things and they were even real testy over anyone doing boundary maintenance without a surveyor. I think there are many instances that boundaries were just set by the father for 3 or 4 sons and nothing really surveyed except a lawyer drawing up the paper work so it could be registered. Nothing marked at all on the ground except a fence post or iron rod. I know land between my grandfather and some cousins never had a mark except a home made stake or steel rod down by the road, nothing out in the woods of any kind.

[Magicman]

Here is a simple one for us amateurs:   http://www.acme.com/planimeter/

Sadly it does not give lat/long options.