owb for 12000 sq.ft school?

[leonz]

leonz,
   Just a little FYI. I don't know of ANY gasification OWB on the market that doesn't have a multi-pass heat exchange system to pull as much heat as possible out of the 2000* plus heat generated by the near complete burning of the fuel. They ALL have a primary burn chamber as well as a secondary burn chamber that is either brick or ceramic lined to withstand the high temperatures produced by the gasification process. Their combustion efficiencies are well over 90%, and their overall efficiencies are near the 90% mark. The EGT's are typically reduced to 250* - 400*. (If you get a chance, google "downdraft gasification". Also, check out EPA's "burnwise" website.) There are even a few conventional OWB brands out that have a multi-pass heat exchange whose overall efficiencies are in the 55 - 60% range.

   Sounds like you are a fan of the Harmon coal stoker ;). (I borrowed your wink clusterbuster75 :D)




clusterbuster75,
   Keep us posted! That looks like a challenging and very fun project 8) Looks like you are doing more than your fair share to keep your community's history alive
    There was an old 3000 sq ft school that I could have bought DIRT cheap about 15 years ago, but my beautiful bride wouldn't let me. It didn't sell and ended up being torn down and hauled away. The small piece of ground is now farmland.

Efficiency is one thing, good fuel supply is the other, garbage in garbage out, 
burning tires as a pastime and a carbon source by some The other issue is
scavenging unburned smoke as useable heat.

A huge amount of heat is lost from smoke exiting the boiler or furnace.as the fan is off!!!

if every one had a single pass scavenger with 4 tubes in the scvenger shell filled with
water coming off the stack and using an induced draft fan there would be no issues period.

These boiler manufacturers constantly avoid the obvious by using a large  fire box and
a smaller mass of water(-1,000 gallons) as well as not using a fully firebrick lined firebox to
absorb heat and slowly let the stored heat back into the combustion chamber to increase
the amount of heat into the combustion cycle.

This is why wood chip boilers are so efficient as they have scavengers as well as forced draft
and induced draft fans.


The more thermal mass you have the less the temperature has to rise to recover and these
boiler manufacturers do not wish to take advantage of simple thermodynamics by building
less costly wood burners with a low water capacity!! They(the builders) have convenient
memory loss in this regard.

The other issue is burning unsplit firewood which requires much more combustion air and the
wood smolders more when the boiler is shut down.   



   

[martyinmi]

leonz,
   Did you take a few moments to search downdraft gasification where it applies to modern OWB's? They do not smoke between cycles. They also have induced air. In fact, some have multiple inducers.
   
   Which of the three authorized Harmon dealership do you work for in NE?

   How many PPMBTU/fine particulates does your coal stoker emit?

   Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm...... ;)

[leonz]

I have not bothered to examine the current OWB mess simply because
they do not have enough water capacity to justify considering them as
an option and most  do not have 1/2 inch boiler plate as standard equipment in thier manufacture.   

If I do anything I will replace my Switzer with a Harmon wood and coal boiler
when the welds fail and it starts leaking.

There is no need to purchase an outdoor boiler when I can purchase a Harmon with
42 gallons of capacity, put it in a shed with an insulated steel tank and burn wood and
coal both and heat a very large amount of water witha 2 pass combustion chamber and
a scavenger from Switzers for much less money than buying any of the OWB's offered today.

Every Central Boiler and several other brands I have seen in my county and nearby
loves to smolder and this goes on for 10 months of the year normally.   

I do not work for or have financial interest in any Harmon Stove dealership.

There is Harmon dealer near me and my brother has purchased 2 wood pellet
stokers from them if thats your getting at???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????



I have a 30 year old natural draft Switzer CWW100 hand loaded wood and coal boiler with shaker grates so.....................

My boilers combustion chamber has been filleed half full with full sized firebrick which rests on the angle iron used to
mount the shaker grates which 1. aids in updraft and 2. increases the burn temperature for my wood and coal and
reduces my smoke to almost zero when my automatic damper control is opened    8)


I would not purchase a Portage and Main coal stoker 1. because of the burn pot design and as I understand it the coal stoker
they offer cannot handle eastern anthracite as it was designed to use western soft coals and two the first dealer I approached did not want
service my unit if i bought it from him as he was near the Albany area and the other dealer I inquired of would not return  my phone calls or e-mails.

[gspren]

Leonz, you came into the firewood and wood heating area and are telling people not to burn wood, it just doesn't add up.

[doctorb]

How much stored hot water capacity do you think is optimal?  Most of the larger gassifier OWB's have pretty large water jackets.

[Texas Ranger]

My first thought is commercial building, buy it, flip it, and build what you need.

[Holmes]

The picture of the boiler does sort of look like a steam boiler. If it is a steam boiler you will not be able to heat it with an OWB. You just can not make steam with 180* water. You then may have to look in to a pressurized wood or coal boiler. First thing to do is find out if it is a hot water or steam boiler. 

[Local4Fitter]

Looks like steam to me. You can see the low water shutoff on the front of the boiler.

[Local4Fitter]

Why can't people be honest up front? I checked out www.arboristsite.com and it appears that Leon has experience with a "poorly insulated ex schoolhouse" because he lives in one. If you have experience with it why not share it and help a guy out? Leon has been through what Cluster is thinking of embarking on and not only does Leon not help Cluster, but he seems to want to make a fool of him. No room in my life for people like that.

[talldog]

Those windows need to go asap! Vinyl replacement windows are easy to install from to inside. Those old ones are major heat drainers.

[leonz]

Why can't people be honest up front? I checked out www.arboristsite.com and it appears that Leon has
experience with a "poorly insulated ex schoolhouse" because he lives in one. If you have experience
with it why not share it and help a guy out? Leon has been through what Cluster is thinking of embarking
on and not only does Leon not help Cluster, but he seems to want to make a fool of him.
No room in my life for people like that.

I thought I was helping him,
I was not making fun of his situation in any way
nor was I making a fool of him.

When he made his inquiry we still knew very little about the
heating system in its entirety and that is why I assumed when
I did that it was a steam heated area. 


I just did not mention my living in an old one room school house
and it was an oversight on my part. I want him to succeed just like
I tell everyone else I want to succeed.



If this place is like the rest the radiators are located
under the windows and around the perimeter of the
building on the 3 floors with no heat other than the
boiler shedding heat in the basement like so so many others. 

I do agree the windows should be upgraded as this will
reduce heat loss for sure.

But for now-

If the radiators they are single pipe radiators they can
have manually controlled steam thermostat screwed in
to the ends of each radiator and save lot of money and
gas heating the place by keeping the unused spaces at
fifty degrees during the heating season and simply adjusting
the manual thermostats when heat is required limiting the
steam to the inhabited rooms when ever required then turning
them down to fifty degrees when they are no longer being used.

The thing is having the manual thermostats in the individual
radiators would be much less expensive in the long term and
the windows could be repainted and the single pane glass
repaired as needed which which is a better use of any working
capital he has if he decides not to make apartments out of the building. 

 

Yes I do live in an old shotgun style school house that was
cob job from beginning to end and I still have trouble
heating it because of the poor construction.

I was not trying to hide anything.

If the boiler is a steam boiler with a bed of gas burners using a
static small water supply ove rthe burners which is normal
an outdoor wood boiler is of no use in this situation period.

Steam is the most cost effective heat source for a residence or
business and people fail to realise this because they have been
convinced that hot water heat is the answer to all thier problems.

[clusterbuster75]

I appreciate all your attempts to help... thanks. No one has scared me away from purchase  :-\.  Big responsibility. I've built 3 buildings and have logs sawed for more, but this might stop all that.   Oct 19 is closing date.  I knew this would be a good place to seek info.  Please keep it coming.

[leonz]

Leonz, you came into the firewood and wood heating area and are telling people not to
burn wood, it just doesn't add up.

It all depends on ones ability to manage a heating system
and provide fuel for it.

I simply mentioned coal as a viable option with a higher BTU per ton
with a stoker or a hand fired wood and coal steam rated boiler in passing.

A building like this will eat up a lot of good hardwood in no time. 

[leonz]

Leonz, you came into the firewood and wood heating area and are telling people not to
burn wood, it just doesn't add up.

It all depends on ones ability to manage a heating system
and provide fuel for it.

I simply mentioned coal as a viable option with a higher BTU per ton
with a stoker or a hand fired wood and coal steam rated boiler in passing.

A building like this will eat up a lot of good hardwood in no time.


The other things you need to be sure of is whether your plumber
will come work on your system and whether the building code allows
an unlicenced individual to do low pressure steam plumbing and whether
your insurer will still cover you and the building if it is your primary residence.

[upsnake]

Side question cluster, and you don't have to answer if you don't want to but. What are you planning on doing with the building?

Living in it or some form of commercial venue?

It would be cool to own the building. Congrats.  8)

[clusterbuster75]

I don't have any concrete plans.  Still debating if this is a "good deal" or something I don't have time for.  I currently rent a house, and am thinking of the short term of moving in. It has showers, kitchen, etc. and is completely livable.  My 1st plan is to plumb the top two floors to make livable spaces. The top floor has two big rooms that also have nice metal fire escapes that could be used as entrances.  I am thinking of converting them to apartments.  Been doing some research on insulating these type of structures, but haven't torn into wall to see what is there. School built in two phases. Old part has big windows with shingle roof. New part has less windows & gym with flat rubber roof. Been in attic in old part where there isn't any insulation, but roof is framed from yellow pine I believe.

I own a winery less than 10 miles away.  I am looking to possibly move my tasting room to this building if licensing works out. City(pop 215) council already had a special meeting to discuss it, but to do what I want, it must go to a voter referendum and its too late for this november election.  I've also entertained notion of looking for business partners to possibly open a restaurant as it has a full kitchen or a consignment shop.  It also has 10 camper hookups.  At the end of the day, it has to generate positive economic activity.

[logboy]

Been doing some research on insulating these type of structures, but haven't torn into wall to see what is there.

Do you know if there is any asbestos or lead paint in the building? Something to think about. In this day and age our government can make your life a real headache with those two issues.

[clusterbuster75]

Signed purchase agreement yesterday..

It has a single pipe steam boiler. Pipe seems like the insulation on them looks newer.  Since this school didn't close until 2002, I assume the asbestos was dealt with in the 90's.  I'm told by the non-profit selling it to me that the only asbestos left in the building is some floor tile that has been carpeted over in a couple classrooms.

Any FF members experienced with installing pressurized gassifying wood boilers in parallel with the existing single pipe steam boiler? 

[leonz]

It will not happen because of the national plumbing code 
as the water chamber above the burners is a "Steam Rated Pressure Vessel"

b. the tie in to the existing water chamber would be a BIG BIG
    nono period because the boiler would be considered damaged
    when it is done as it is A PRESSURE VESSEL and this idea will
    not fly because it is a presure vessel.


You have come back full circle to where you started as a
Harman coal stoker will do the job for you without blinking
an eye as long as a licensed plumber does the work, save
your firewood for your work shop and a finished wood drying kiln