The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts





Author Topic: Building Plans  (Read 2722 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline craigc

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: Central Illinois
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Building Plans
« on: November 11, 2012, 06:20:07 PM »
I am looking to build a Timber framed lake house are there any detailed plans out there?  I built the Sobon shed last year, and looking for another project.  My wife would want something probably more contempary. Any help is appreciated.
Rottne SMV, Timbco with Logmax 9000, JD 540B Grapple.

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 06:40:44 PM »
Hi Craig,

The moderator Jim I believe may have some boiler plate plans and does them as well.  I do plans and design also.  Who ever you get them from, there is additional information that would help others reading the forum, that might be able to help.

What size frame, number of stories, style-European, Asian, Modern, those facts would really help narrow down some places for you to look and/or consider.  Plans typically cost anywhere from $2.00 to $25.00 per square foot depending on complexity, and certification of designer.  There are a few free boiler plates but they are really limited. Look forward to learning more about the project.  Will you cut the frame yourself?
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline craigc

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: Central Illinois
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 07:05:40 AM »
The plan is to build a modern style, two story house.  Would like one that would lend itself to large windows out the back to give a good view of the lake.  I do plan on hopefully doing everything from tree harvest to final assemble.  Since I don't know how to design the timbers lay out I was looking for plans with details of the timbers.  Hoping for something similar to the Sobon shed.  Oh first project would be the boat house I need rafters a existing steel frame is already there for the boat sling.
Rottne SMV, Timbco with Logmax 9000, JD 540B Grapple.

Online Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 07:53:45 AM »
To start you need to think of the size and draw up a floor plan.

Then you can add posts to the floor plan which will give you some idea where interior walls will/can be.

What size cabin are you looking for?

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 08:54:44 AM »
Craig,

I have to second what I said before and what Jim said is spot on.  You have referenced Sobon's book a few times now, and that is an English framing style.  It is not the best to lend it's self to modern designs interpretation, the many braces interfere with the rectilinear profiles of post modernism.  I am very familiar with Green and Green, Frank Lloyd Wright, they both give good representation of horizontal-large fenestration design formats.

We need to know what the floor plan is going to be to plan bent assemblies.  English frames (Sobon,) are raised as bents starting at an end wall, then moving down the frame as you raise it.  Frames from other regions can be raised as full length wall bents running with the ridge, (or in pieces,) but again, until we see a floor plan and know the size, it will be difficult to aid you.  If you can post a floor plan and reference some web sights you think have nice frames you would consider, we could give you feedback on roughing in your design.  What about the Adirondack style?

"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline Andrew Jackson

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 07:11:16 AM »
If you are looking for a great resource for timber frame packages, I can recommend Rob Roy Homes http://robroyhomes.co.uk/ . They build timber frame kit houses in the UK as well as providing timber kits, and timber frame design. I am a small-scale property developer and have used them for a number of products with great success. Ive also enjoyed using Scandinavian suppliers who offer an efficient service, but being based in the UK it is best value for me to use a UK timber supplier. Hope this is helpful!

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2012, 12:16:17 PM »
Hi Andrew,

I think Craig is looking for actual timber frame kits or plans for cutting his own frame.  The "Rob Roy," kits are stick built structures, (as we call'm here on this side of the pond,) not timber frames.  I have consulted on a few project that have competed with "Rob Roy" style kits, there just is no comparison with an actual timber frame. You would know better than I, but does "Rob Roy," have any real timber frame structures that they sell?  I would love to see them, since I work over seas on occasion and like to know the competition.

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline Andrew Jackson

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 10:30:10 AM »
Hi Jay,

I am unsure of what the difference of what you are talking about is?

Offline Draco

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Michigan
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 03:18:35 PM »
Andrew,

I don't mean to butt in.  It's the same on this side of "the pond".  Dictionary definition:

"Timber framing is the method of creating framed structures of heavy timber jointed together with pegged mortise and tenon joints (lengthening scarf joints and lap joints are also used). Diagonal bracing is used to prevent racking of the structure.

To deal with the variable sizes and shapes of hewn and sawn timbers the two main historical layout methods used were: scribe carpentry and square rule carpentry. Scribing was used throughout Europe, especially from the 12th century to the 19th century, and was brought to North America where it was common into the early 19th century. In a scribe frame every timber will only fit in one place so that every timber has to be numbered. Square rule carpentry developed in New England in the 18th century and features housed joints in main timbers to allow for interchangeable braces and girts. Today regularized timber can mean that timber framing is treated as joinery especially when cut by large CNC (computer numerical control) machines.

To finish the walls, the spaces between the timbers were often infilled with wattle-and-daub, brick or rubble, with plastered faces on the exterior and interior which were often ceiled with wainscoting for insulation and warmth. This method of infilling the spaces created the half-timbered style, with the timbers of the frame being visible both inside and outside the building."

"Stick built" refers to conventional homes, built with dimensional lumber, from a lumber yard or big box store.  Even kit log homes are not "real" log homes.  The logs have been cut, dried, milled to perfect matches of each other, assembled, taken apart, moved to the build site and reconstructed.  It's apples and oranges.

You can't buy a real log home, or timber framed home, from a kit manufacturer.

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 10:06:26 PM »
Hi Andrew,

Draco has made some awesome points on the differences, another way to compare the differences is to look at the link you provided compared next to one of the companies that brokers my services.  I think it will be clear to you the difference between modern construction methods compared to what many of us on this forum do as timber wrights.  Hope this helps.  ;)

Your Link:
http://robroyhomes.co.uk/

My Link:
http://www.antiquebarns.net/minka.htm

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 11:04:37 PM »
Hi All,

After reading Draco's entry on this thread one more time, I thought I would include some additional information to what Draco shared about the definition and history of timber framing.  I'm currently drafting similar text for publication regarding this subject.

The term and definitions for timber framing has gone through much alteration since being "coined," in literature not too long ago.  The definition really hasn't change that much since the origin, (wood to wood joinery with not metal fasteners/adhesiveness as the primary connecting element.)  However, since it was first put to print in a United Kingdom English text, it originally was speaking about the "half-timber" structures of the Western Europe.  Now we know that there has been (and are)  heavy timber architectural cultures that are indigenous to almost all portions of the globe, with both "post and lintel,"  "post and beam," and their variant methodologies practiced through out the many regions.

We now know most timber frames had been (and are still) built between the Middle East and Asia, and only a very small portion globally are, or ever have been built in America and Europe (other than the "post and lintel" neolithic structures of the Americas First Nations People.)  I know that is saying a lot, considering the quantity, variety and beauty of the frames here in America and Europe, however, timber framing has been practiced between the Nile Valley and Asia for thousands of years.  There is Neolithic evidence that timber framing moved east thousands of years before it moved North and West into Europe, and reach a zenith of complexity in Asia, using square trunnel pass through and "dead," pegging methods and the "center line" or simply "line" method of layout, (still the most common form practiced today globally,) before frames in Europe moved much past post and fork methodology.

I would also add a little more about "lay out" techniques, as they are as important in defining the different forms of timber framing as are the terms, "post and beam" vs. "post and lintel."  Historically, "scribe rule," and "line rule" are the two oldest (and still practiced,) methods of laying out a timber for joinery.  In Asia, where oblique (diagonal) bracing is used in only rare and specific application, "line rule," is still the dominate form of layout, there by being the most practiced today and historically.  "Edge Rule," (laying out off a selected edge/plane to a conceptual "perfect" timber inside,) and/or "Mill Rule," (selecting the edge/plane of a near perfectly milled timber,) are both rather new techniques that have been around for less than 250, (maybe 300) years.  It evolved after the production of powered sawmills.

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline Brian_Weekley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Location: N. Stonington, CT
  • Gender: Male
  • I am Batman!
    • Share Post
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 09:07:22 AM »
"Scribe Rule," or "Mill Rule," is a rather new technique that has been around for less than 250, (maybe 300) years.  It evolved after the production of powered sawmills.

You mean "Square Rule", but that is not the same as "Mill Rule".  Mill rule assumes the beam dimensions are consistent at each joint and square rule reduces each joint to a common dimension.
e aho laula

Offline timberwrestler

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • Share Post
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 09:08:42 AM »
Jay,

I think (?) you mean square rule in that second to last sentence.  It's worth pointing out that there's plenty of frames that are square ruled with hewn timbers.  The braces and smaller scantlings may be sawn, but it was cheaper and easier (which is even sometimes the case today) to hew the big stuff.

Jack Sobon did a pretty cool little calculation on what the break even point between when it's cheaper to hew a timber than it is to buy one.  That is, because timbers are sold by volume, it gets quite pricey to buy timbers as they get larger.  Hewing, if you have the right size log, is by surface area.  So with some assumptions on what you would pay per bd ft on larger timbers, and what would pay someone to hew, and how long it takes, you can figure out when it's less expensive to hew.  I believe Jack's break even is around a 9x9x18 or 20, where anything larger than that is less expensive to hew.  I'll be hewing (4) 8x10x36s this winter with a client for some of the same reasons--it's less expensive and there's no trucking.

What are you writing?

I occasionally run into Ira, who I believe used to work for you.

Brad

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 11:41:36 AM »
 ;)  :P

Good Day Brian and Brad,

This is why I joined, (and why I shouldn't write after 11:00 hr in the evening after working all day,) thank you so much for being my editors "at large."  Our collective "beameries" in the group of timber wrights I work with just wrapped up 5 more frames this week, and some form of each of these methods have been employed.  Please also, if you are every challenged by a position, claim, concept, etc. that I share, please push back.  It helps me validate information and provide better "talking points," "concept integration" and the related.  I have made your corrections to the referenced entry, please provide feedback as you see fit.  Once again, thank you very much.

Brad,

This is a great connection.  I love when a student like Ira, (they all become friends and family to me  ;D ) goes out in the world and shares what they know!  FYI with me coming from such an eclectic background, career wise, including "Group Development and Team Building," nobody ever works for me, "we collaborate and facilitate a goal or challenge."  ;) 

Jack and the other "old heads," of this wonderful craft are some great resources for obscure information like that, and Jack is "dead on" about hand hewing on site.  I have a friend in Japan that I have been following for years, that can hew large timbers in traditional Asian methods so quick, it would blow your socks off, he's great.  I do a combination, very often of chainsaw milling, hewing and large planning.  Combine that with other collected skills and nobody will be able to beat your pricing matrix for unique and beautiful frames.  Look forward to sharing more!!!

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline craigc

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: Central Illinois
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 10:43:58 PM »
Ok, I am back.  This lakehouse is a foreclosure and has been tied up with Fannie May.  In answering what I am looking for, they would be plans detailed enough for me to cut them myself.  First project would be rafters  for the boathouse.  The lake has rules about how tall the roof can be, so will find those details and that will determine the pitch.
Rottne SMV, Timbco with Logmax 9000, JD 540B Grapple.

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 12:16:10 AM »
Even'n Craig,

Excellent, keep posting your findings and needs, and I'm sure you will get more advice and opinions than you really want or need.  Post drawings, and photos they really help.  Sketch it on a napkin and shoot a photo with a cell phone if you have to.  "A picture is worth a thousand words."

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline craigc

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: Central Illinois
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 08:14:01 AM »
My wife told me about an add in the Antiques and Collectibles in our local paper.  "For Sale: Antique barn beam border drill press. $80."  Needless to say I could not dial the phone fast enough.  Talked to the gentleman he said he would send me a picture the next day.  I got the picture at 4:10 looked at it.  Went to the internet pulled up some pictures  and called the gentleman. Asked him if there was a name on it.  He said "I can read Miller something"  I said  "Sold".  Picked it up last night.  Its a little rough in looks, something had nibbled on the base so that needs replaced and it has a missing wood handle.  What species of wood was normally used on these bases I would like to keep it as original as possible.  I am going to take this as a sign from the Guy upstairs that I am supposed to build something.  I hope its not an Ark thats a pretty big undertaking. :D :D
Rottne SMV, Timbco with Logmax 9000, JD 540B Grapple.

Offline Rooster

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 688
  • Location: Lake Mills, by way of Fort Atkinson, WI
  • Gender: Male
  • Tools are extensions of ourselves... share a tool.
    • Share Post
    • Photobucket image storage account
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 09:18:56 AM »
No worries!!!

Amateurs built the Ark,... professionals built the Titanic!
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Online Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7493
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Building Plans
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 10:03:32 AM »
What species of wood was normally used on these bases I would like to keep it as original as possible?

We make replacement bases. I have one here all ready to ship if you want one.
We have made them out of oak, cherry and walnut. I think oak or maple is the original wood.
I think the one we have on hand is walnut. See our tools for sale list in the For Sale section for the price and id number.

Nice find.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
New Building Plans?

Started by tacks Y on Sawmills and Milling

4 Replies
952 Views
Last post March 07, 2016, 07:16:29 AM
by tacks Y
xx
Online Building Plans

Started by Mark M on Timber Framing/Log construction

2 Replies
2435 Views
Last post July 04, 2003, 04:29:00 AM
by Norm
xx
Plans for putting my Woodmizer in a building.

Started by Northmizer-10 on Sawmills and Milling

22 Replies
5839 Views
Last post June 29, 2010, 09:49:09 AM
by Meadows Miller
xx
What style is this? Where to look for stock building plans?

Started by Brad_bb on General Board

16 Replies
1227 Views
Last post May 10, 2019, 08:12:00 PM
by WLC
 


Powered by EzPortal