RR Ties for $40

[Ron Wenrich]

I remember 1 Com red oak up at about $1/bf.  Ties didn't approach $40, but were closer to about $25.  I don't see anything that is going to pressure the red oak market.  Its out of sync with its cycle.  I remember when red oak was a low value hardwood.  I also remember when maple was considered a low value hardwood.  Those markets run opposed to each other.

At what price do plastic ties become attractive?  Right now they're more expensive than wooden ties.  Double the price on wood, and those green, recycled ties become attractive.  They also hold up much better than wooden ties, and in 50 years would reduce the costs of track maintenance by 2/3. 

You're still looking at a localized market.  Ties didn't double in price when they started hauling coal out of Wyoming.

[shelbycharger400]

looked up concrete ties
rocla   has been making concrete ties for 50 years. It seems everwhere I have been ties were wood. Must be the fact lots of trees, and people that have mills will work for what money they can get during the slow time.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

One reason for higher tie prices is that a spill of coal or lumber is not the same as a crude oil spill from a track or tie failure.

[Al_Smith]

Well now I'm not so sure the locomotive diesels actually run on bunker c or not .That's usually reserved for large marine diesels .
Fact of the matter the large diesels on the fleet type submarines  were at the time essentually locomotive engines and they ran on number 2 diesel .They were around 1400 -1600 HP a piece GMC V-16 278A or Fairbanks Morse 10 38 D 8 1/8 ,depending .
Of course locomotive engines at this time are larger than those .

The locomotive dynamic braking is done through huge resitors which are in the overhead of the locomotive which dissipate the load of the DC traction motors that essentualy become generators when an over hauling load is placed on them .

[rmack]

The locomotive dynamic braking is done through huge resitors which are in the overhead of the locomotive which dissipate the load of the DC traction motors that essentualy become generators when an over hauling load is placed on them .

That does make sense. I'm no electrical engineer, just regurgitating what I was told by Railroad engineers and the guys that worked in the shops.

So, they cut power to the traction motors and then run the generated electricity through resistors to create a load, or braking force, against the drive axles? where does all the heat go? I know there were a lot of electrical panels at the back of the room where the engineer and brakeman ride. big cables, like welding machines. The hoghead had a lever, similar to and close to the throttle, that he could regulate the strength of the dynamic brake.

iirc the engines produced equivalent of 3000hp. I think the pistons are about 18" diameter.

[Ron Wenrich]

One reason for higher tie prices is that a spill of coal or lumber is not the same as a crude oil spill from a track or tie failure.

Most all of the chemicals and radioactive material gets hauled by rail.  Its deemed to hazardous to haul by truck.  What would be the results of a track failure with that material?  Why hasn't that pushed tie prices higher?

[timberjackrob]

Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

That is good news about the ties, RRs and some jobs as well.
As for train engines,
I was told that there are several electrical motors, in some cases one per axle.  Also, the diesel in them is rebuildable one cylinder at a time as needed.

I work as a conductor for Norfolk southern and yes each axle is powered by what is called an electric traction motor and can be cut out or in as needed. Rail traffic is projected to increase every year our line is constantly being upgraded and improved I have never seen any concrete ties on any line we run on but I have seen them on Csx lines

[5quarter]

I've read that concrete ties are workable only in environments that are not subject to vibration. A few years ago, BNSF had laid concrete ties just south of me in Cass county. This year they re-replaced them with wood ties. Many businesses around here have been picking up truckloads of concrete ties and reusing them as stops in their parking lots.  ;).

I regret to say that a few evironuts from Bold Nebraska managed to turn what was a local issue into a national embarassment, causing the XL pipeline construction to be delayed. TransCanada has since proposed a new route through the state along with a few other changes that have been informally approved by all relavent parties. The people at Bold Ne are still wailing and gnashing their teeth, but rest assured, the pipeline will be built. Our own Warren Buffet, who owns BNSF, has been the force behind much of the opposition to the pipeline. you can imagine why. ;)

as long as demand for ties can be met, I don't believe prices will move that much. the minute demand exceeds supply, thats when prices will jump.

periodically I get stuck at RR crossings. I have plenty of time to stare hypnotically at the train as it passes. some time ago, I noticed that if you stare at one tie only, you will see it flex downward 1/2" or more as each axle passes over it. I thought at first it was just that tie, but every tie I have stared at since does the exact same thing. :P

[Okrafarmer]

I could be profitable at $40 a tie. And if the demand increases, does that mean that the lower quality ties might be bought at a reduced price and used for things like sidings, and less critical applications?

Increasing rail integrity safety for oil spill prevention-- does that mean they need to replace the ties more often, or obtain better quality ties, or put them closer together, or what? If the demand increases will they be less picky on the quality? Or do they need to maintain that same quality and stringent specifications, regardless?

Maybe the ones that don't meet the specs can go for landscaping timbers.

[Okrafarmer]

Also, I am guessing that the increase in rail traffic has a lot to do with the high cost of petroleum fuel. Trains do compete with trucks for freight, and trains are far more efficient than trucks. Dedicated load trucking *may* be faster than rail traffic, but trains use far less fuel and labor per ton of freight moved, per mile. Railroads, unlike trucking companies, are directly responsible for the railroad surface they travel on. Trucking companies do pay taxes which support the highway maintenance, but they are not directly responsible to pay for it. What's more, the trucking companies do not have any direct control (and little indirect control) on the improvement of the roads. Rail traffic can not go everywhere, and any time you have to transfer the load to a different container or conveyance, you lose efficiency. In many cases, trains do not go directly to the end user's location, so the load has to be transferred to trucks. Therefore, loading it directly on a truck and by-passing the train does get you a certain modicum of efficiency you don't have if you have to transfer the load.

But the higher that fuel prices are, my understanding is, the more advantageous rail traffic becomes versus trucking. As long as motor fuel prices are high, rail traffic will continue to be strong. There will be pressure to run more cars per day, and to manage to get the freight closer and closer to its final destination by rail. If high fuel prices persist, and even increase, it could possibly lead to more rails being laid, even side-by side in some cases, to increase rail traffic. More depots / marshalling yards might be needed, and more businesses already located near a railroad might consider installing a siding. More passing sidings might be necessary too, if main lines increase their traffic volume.

Related to all this, is the construction matting market. I've been approached once about building matting. Particularly in parts of the continent where new oil production is taking place, construction matting is important. Unless the evironuts shut down the oil production, we can only assume that if oil prices remain high, the widespread oil production will continue, and also continue to spread into new areas that have never produced oil commercially before.

[SwampDonkey]

Pulpwood in my area is bought in zones.  The further away you are, the more you get.  Basically the same idea with ties.

I'm not sure if it's zoned for public land here, but we have had zoned prices for 30 years on private woodlot wood delivered as primary forest products.

On the train thing and ties, it's happening here. The reason is they never did complete the national pipeline further east than Montreal. They talk about every few years but it's always been non economical. The funny part of that is that the largest oil refinery in the country is in Saint John, NB. So Irving, who is 100 % private so no one to the south knows who they are,  65% of New England petroleum is delivered by them. Anyway they run trains west with lumber to all the Home Depots and bring oil east. Oil from the west is $20/barrel cheaper than in the middle east. I think it is more likely that those situations that will demand more ties. That being said, I would not be counting my fortunes in ties.

In Sault Saint Marie, Ontario they have a huge wind farm on a ridge line with wind blowing off Superior and they have two 150 acre solar farms. There is all kinds of land up there because the city doesn't grow that fast. It's also a steel town with lots of fabrication. I have a friend that worries about isolation and bad weather since the city is miles from anywhere. The city has been there a long time and they haven't perished yet. ;) Also, like here, they know how to move snow. ;D

[Al_Smith]

That does make sense. I'm no electrical engineer, just regurgitating what I was told by Railroad engineers and the guys that worked in the shops.

So, they cut power to the traction motors and then run the generated electricity through resistors to create a load, or braking force, against the drive axles? where does all the heat go? I know there were a lot of electrical panels at the back of the room where the engineer and brakeman ride. 

There are huge cooling fans that blow air over the big resistors located in the roof of the locomotive .

BTW the locomotive also has air brakes too .

It used to be that it took a 5 man crew to operate a train which I think has been reduced to three .Engineer ,conductor and I think a brakeman .I'm not positive but I think in addition there used to be a signalman and a fireman .

I'm not so sure about an 18" piston either .FWIW the pistons on that 10 cylinder oppossed Fairbanks-Morse which was 20 pistons were 8 1/8" . The largest locomotive engine I've seen was a V20 Electo motive which is a division of General motors and it was around 5,000 HP .I'm pretty sure Caterpillar makes some large railroad engines also .

If I'm not mistaken it seems to me the largest of the over the road power units are something like 200 tons .

To the subject there used to be a creosote works here locally .Talk about stink ,my goodness .They shipped ties and power poles by the train load .It's a pole yard now for power line supplies .Oddly though on that same road are both a pallett works plus a log yard for high grade venneer logs most of which are exported .

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The main supplier of electric motors is GE (known as GE Rail in the past) and they control 70% of the market today.  (Their first diesel-electric locomotive was in 1928, with the ones similar to what we know today coming in 1936.  Today's engines are very efficient and quiet.)  They are starting a new plant near Dallas, TX because of the increased demand.  Their original main plant is in Erie, PA.  So, if more motors, then more trains and, as most ties are replaced due to wear, with more trains there will be more wear and so there will be more ties needed. 

Although 7x9x100" was the most popular, we are seeing a trend to 7x9x9' for heavy loads on fast train rails.  Even longer ties are need for switches (called switch ties).  Tie treatments with creosote is still the main, with very strict requirements on the amount of treatment and depth of penetration, etc.  Ties are usually air dried at the treating plant for 6 months before treating, but this is variable.  There are also strict rules on tie quality, especially with respect to the ends being solid.

[Cedarman]

Even if ties double in cost to the railroad, it does not double the cost of treating and installing the tie.  I wonder what the total cost of removing the old tie and installing the new tie is?  Sure it will be considerable expense, but it is not as big an increase percentage wise as we might think.

There is plenty of timber growing. We have 4 or 5 years of reduced harvest and even before, we were growing  a lot more than was being harvested.
Lots of logging equipment went to the scrap yard.  New equipment costs prevent many from starting a logging company.  As has been said, logging will be a bottleneck tending to keep supply down.   Log price should go up if demand goes up, but standing timber prices probably won't go up much as there is a lot of it out there. 
Sawmills can quickly double production by adding a second shift if they can get the labor.  So log supply is the big bottleneck in my book.
If they can't get enough ties, prices will go up, so Doc, it makes sense that there may be a new normal coming.

[rmack]

There are huge cooling fans that blow air over the big resistors located in the roof of the locomotive .

now that you bring it up, I remember those round grates on the top of the units.

It used to be that it took a 5 man crew to operate a train which I think has been reduced to three .Engineer ,conductor and I think a brakeman .I'm not positive but I think in addition there used to be a signalman and a fireman

In my day there were 4, Engineer, Conductor, and 2 Brakemen... one head end and one tail end. I believe the firemen disappeared with the onset of the diesel/electrics.

The brakemen were the signalmen and handled all the grunt work of switching and repairs (changing knuckles etc) enroute. By the time I started there were 2 way radios but most of the protocols were still in place from pre-radio days. The communication system that they had in the early days was quite elaborate using flags and whistles, you really had to know your stuff or bad things could happen from miscommunication. I almost got killed 3 times (twice weather related, once communication) the third time I got hurt such that it took a few months to heal up, after that I came to the conclusion that my chances were  all used up so I headed to the forests of the west coast for something different.

I believe there are usually just two people now, both on the head end, Engineer and Brakeman/Conductor... no more cabooses around here. btw, interesting tidbit, those cabooses were like year round rv's. they had electrical generators, water tanks, fridge/stove/sink toilet, 4 bunks and plenty of wool blankets. They also ran for 6-8 weeks on a charge of fuel... also carry overs from the days when the train crew could be stranded for extended periods I guess.

I have heard that the concrete ties require more maintenance (rail grinding) but their use seems to be expanding in spite of the issues of heavy trains and frozen ground, and that's going on in the Selkirk and Rocky Mountain ranges. Some very heavy trains on steep grades.

All the same, it seems like betting on wooden ties is like anchoring your fortunes to an increasingly obsolete product. As has already been said, the more the price increases, the greater the likelihood of railroad companies switching to concrete or something else that doesn't need periodic replacing.

I wonder what the manufacturers of plastic ties do to keep the sunlight off them?

[SwampDonkey]

Bigger demand for rail would not be a bad thing for the continent. However, I'm wondering if demand for more locomotives is to replace old ones. Back east here they have torn up track and are about to eliminate rail entirely into the Maritimes. All except the Irvings, who bought out NB Rail Road to get all the timber lands in the 40's. We have miles and miles of old rail beds they now call NB trails. Once gone, they will never be back. It would take a world war before CP or CN would come back. And some of the line they never owned anyway, they leased it from the Irvings. All their mills have rail running right beside them as with the refinery. Most of the other mills and food processors abandoned rail 30 years ago. The worst move they ever made. So with the big players not wanting business it was not economical to maintain a rail going in the hole. We had some floods in the 80's that took out some old 125 year old bridges, so that sealed the deal and by then the old rail sidings were falling into the ground.

I'm kinda eying this rail push like I do with all the ship building Canada has committed to for the next 30 years. Once we replace those old relics everything shuts down like it did after WWII and back into the doldrums.

[Jeff]

I have serious doubts that there will be any such increase, or at least the ability to project it if you are using transportation of crude oil as the basis. When it comes to energy, and the building of new infrastructure for such, I think the smart money goes to building new infrastructure for alternative energies. Namely natural gas. Sure, there is a big debate on the dangers of fracking, but I think that is going to all be worked out, and natural gas will be the priority, at least for the rest of our lifetimes. Natural gas is not going to be train freighted.  Just my dos centavos. 

[tyb525]

Ties are almost always replaced with a machine now. The machine drives over the tie they want to replace. They pull the spikes, old tie is pushed out from under the rail, new tie is pushed in, new rail plates are installed, spikes are driven back in.

I "used" to be a rail buff, before I discovered all this sawmill and logging stuff :D

Spent many days search and photographing various trains and locomotives, before I got a job. While most kids were playing racing and war video games, I was playing a railroad simulator called "Microsoft Train Simulator" when I wasn't chasing trains. I used to be able to name various brands and models of locomotives like I can name chainsaws and sawmills now.

[SwampDonkey]

Crossing the Salmon River.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Indeed the low price and availability of natural gas is proving quite devastating for the WV coal industry in the past 5 years.

We do know that the number and size of oil trains has increased in the past two years up to about 12,000 in 2012.  This increase more than offsets the decrease in coal shipments.  And due to the high cost of a spill, also means more ties on these new oil routes.  We can argue about the eventual price for a tie, but it seems that the increase in demand is already a certainty.  And if the Arab countries cut oil production even a little bit....

We also have ethanol plants using corn and they ship the ethanol via RR.  As we use more ethanol (because we drive more or because the government mandates it), more tankers, which means more wood ties.

The oil refineries are making gasoline, heating oil for those not close to a natural gas line, and many other petro-chemical feedstocks that natural gas cannot replace, at least in the short term.  U.S. demand for oil in 2012 was an increase over the past several years, even with our efficient cars and more natural gas.

BNSF is indeed a leader in Midwest shipping and I have heard second hand that they do not like concrete ties; so again, a strong indicator of the role of wood.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

[SwampDonkey]

Yup, and an amazing part of that is all the plastics. Look around you. The food we eat, cars, the health care products and dispensories and even the house is full of the stuff.

[steamsawyer]

I used to be able to name various brands and models of locomotives like I can name chainsaws and sawmills now.

Me too... But it was the ones they powered by dihydrogen monoxide gas...  :new_year:

[Jeff]

I guess this is one of those things that only time will tell and would fall under forecasting using the principles of the Chaos Theory also known as the "butterfly effect".  (If a butterfly flaps it's wings in  Africa, it may result in a Hurricane in Florida)

[WH_Conley]

Let's just say that I am not to go borrowing any money to buy tie logs expecting them to go up. I have heard the buyer beg for more ties but not raise the prices any.

[5quarter]

I agree with Jeff...speculating on the price of ties is only marginally more certain than speculating on the price of oranges 12 months hence. However, for those already selling in the tie market, it may be prudent to perhaps retool  your operations such that you can quickly ramp up production if prices spike. things like sourcing additional logs, streamlining the sawing process and planning on 1 or 2 additional strong backs able to step in pt time. perhaps the need to ramp up never materializes. and if thats the case, nothing really lost. but if it does, I know that I'd want the ability to ramp up within the week and take full advantage of any volatility in the market. not planning ahead may cost a month or two in being able to meet increased demand and of course the price may fall off again as supply catches up. Just a few words of wisdom based on my unparalelled ignorance of the tie markets.  ;)