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Author Topic: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.  (Read 7130 times)

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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 03:00:58 PM »
Question: How does the moisture get out of the chamber?

Question:  How is the chamber heated?  To get that hot, do you use heated oil or high pressure steam?  If steam, is the steam injected into the chamber as is done in superheated steam drying?

Question:  What is the temperature you use for drying?

Comment: We know that the temperature of 165 C (330 F) creates substantial strength loss in pine...maybe 30%.   As a result, such heated wood could not be used in structural applications according to U.S. and Canadian laws and building codes.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Offline tyb525

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 03:55:27 PM »
According to the university of Moscow 160C doesn't reduce the strength of pine, but 185C and above does. I don't know who is right there.

I think this technology is better for hardwood lumber and pine logs, than pine lumber. I see Serg marketing it for outdoor lumber and whole logs where rot, insect resistance, and stability is important. It wouldn't be needed for interior framing such as rafters, where strength is more of an issue.
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 04:45:39 PM »
It does weaken southern pine.  We begin to see weakening around 240 F.

That would be a concern for decking, stringers, etc. which are all structural.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Offline Den Socling

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 11:10:10 AM »
Gene,
If you look at the picture in the first post, you'll notice pipes on the wall. Hot oil is circulated through this piping. The kiln operates as a "typical" vac kiln until the wood is dry. In previous chambers, Sergey had a condenser but I don't see one here.
Den

Offline Arthur Beck

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2013, 08:15:02 AM »
Hi everybody!

I'm Arthur, Serg mentioned about me above. He asked me to translate his replies to last questions and place at the forum. So, doing this.

Hello, friends.
I asked Helen and Arthur to participate the forum to help me with communication. Thank you for your questions and answers. Ill continue to acquaint you with my thermowood experiments.
Ive used the new design of kiln with natural air circulation. Dan is right: vacuum kiln collect moisture by mean of condenser with cold water flow inside it, while in the convective kiln with thermo treatment the steam exhausts to the atmosphere by mean of supply/exhaust valves. There are pipes with oil inside the kiln. I dont use steam under pressure.
I use temperature 150 190 oC (F= 300 375)
Im quite agree with you that pine loses bending resistance. But it increases its hardness, swells less, no insect infestation. I can make the rapid kiln drying of pine at 110 oC (F=230) and check it for natural strength weakening. But nevertheless I consider unpeeled log drying  at 170 oC (F=340) for 8 days to be a good result.
Its important. Please pay attention that Moscow Forest University survey concerned fir and spruce, NOT pine at temperature 160 oC (F=320) and resulted 15% bending stress resistance increase! Hope there is no mistake, the experimental spruce was from different regions of Russia and Ukraine, and result was the same.  Id like to notice this survey will be continued for different temperatures and heating time. For different species properties changing vary.
You know that some natural properties of wood depend on its place of growth. So they may vary under heat treatment.
It could be interesting to check American pine (not Russian) according American and Canadian standards.
I see the physical properties of wood could be increased considerably using composite technology with thermowood. Its separate item and Im dealing with it now. Lets consider.
The idea is like this. Thermowood  become stable in geometry, humidity invariant lengthways and through thickness, mold and rot resistant, low swelling. All these permit to create new composite materials.
E.g., oak, hornbeam, acacia are very durable without heat treatment. The heat treatment  under  certain conditions even improves most of physical properties. So we could glue up oak and other  hardwood with pine lumber and get the advantages of thermowood with cost  efficiency of pine or spruce (fir).
There is a lot of operation in gluelam production.  Knot cutting out, lengthways gluing by mini-tenon, lamellas gluing etc. A lot of machinery is necessary. We can take low rated solid pine lumber 150x150 mm (6x6) and glue up 25 mm (1) oak or hornbeam lamellas on both sides. As the result we get 150x200mm (6x8) composite lumber  with better durability and dcor. As well we need less machinery for its production.
In case we use solid heat treated  logs and lumber in compression conditions, no need to use composites.
Whats your opinion about this thermocomposite technology?
The end of Serg's post.
  I am small Traditional Timber Frame Workshop owner. Our vacuum kiln was made ourselves under Serg's supervision. So we cooperate with him and his wife already for a quite long time and our next project now is to remodel our kiln into Thermo-Vacuum. I want to use thermowood (spruce and fir) for outdoor pavilions at first as shown at photos attached. In case I am shure about the rate of thermowood construction properties degradation (increasing?), perhaps we use it for residental timber frames also. Now I rely the data about that matter in this Finnish source http://files.kotisivukone.com/en.thermowood.kotisivukone.com/tiedostot/tw_handbook_eng.pdf. They write almost all strength properties even slightly improves till 180C (F=350). It could be enough for me they will not degradate. That's why I need my own thermo kiln to get necessary lumber for investigation.
Regarding the "thermocomposite" idea. I am not sure it can be wise for construction loadbearig lumber, especially beams and rafters. Usually 3 or even 4 sides of them are visible, so it would be necessary to laminate not only 2 sides. I think it will be costly. Perhaps it's OK for massive lumber walls to make them more aesthetic and element resistant.

 

  

  

  

 

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2013, 09:40:32 AM »
 ;D Welcome to the Forestry Forum Arthur, glad to have you!  ;D

Regards,

Jay
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Offline isawlogs

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2013, 10:04:41 AM »
 This is very interesting to me.
 Is the pine in the kiln the average size of pine in your area ?
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Offline Arthur Beck

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2013, 04:02:35 AM »
Yes, this is average size Siberian pine.
But we use a bit another logs. My TF workshop is located in West Ukraine nearby Karpaty mountains. So, we use local fir and spruce (there is very few of pinetrees). And we order special sized logs minimum 40-50 cm and up to 1 m diameter (see photos) in order to avoid boxed heart sawing. Center-cut timbers are much better for kiln drying.



 

  

 

Offline isawlogs

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2013, 08:22:01 AM »
  I like the set up, when I saw for timber frames we have an all terrain crane to help out.

I would like a pic and dicsription of the mill you are using for sawing of the logs, how big and how long of a log can it saw  ???
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Offline Arthur Beck

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2013, 11:08:53 AM »
Our mill and planer were made by one local guy according to our need. They both move on railway from different sides of it. The log length is limited by railway (about 10 m). Diameter limits 1 m.
 

  

 

Offline isawlogs

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2013, 12:39:08 PM »
 Great pictures, thanks for sharing.

Do the planner and the mill run on the same track ???
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2013, 12:46:01 PM »
Hello Arthur,

I would love to know more about you timber framing history.  Do you work in folk style or more modern style.  The traditional timber frames of the Karpaty Mountains are beautiful.  Where did you learn to cut timber frames?

Regards, 

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline Arthur Beck

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2013, 01:52:33 PM »
Great pictures, thanks for sharing.

Do the planner and the mill run on the same track ???
Yes, from different sides. We use the same track double.
Hello Arthur,

I would love to know more about you timber framing history.  Do you work in folk style or more modern style.  The traditional timber frames of the Karpaty Mountains are beautiful.  Where did you learn to cut timber frames?
It's a bit another history,seems not for this topic about siberian house.  :) In fact I've told my TF history in details at the biggest Russian forum, where I have topic named "Timber Frame - we can do it". But it is in Russian. Now I make my website. Perhaps part of it will be in English. As well I plan to participate TF topics of this forum and TF Guild forum.
We do not build TF of Karpaty Mountains. We make traditional Timber Frame as it was defined by Tedd Benson, Steve Chappel and other TF guru. I learn this art by their books, websites and other sources, mostly from USA, Canada and Britain. Plus our own creativity...

Offline Seaman

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2013, 08:04:11 AM »
Welcome Authur,
Love this thread, would love to see more pics of outdoor TF shelters.
Frank
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Offline clww

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2013, 08:57:37 AM »
Fascinating thread. :)
Please keep posting. :)
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Offline WmFritz

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2013, 11:36:44 AM »
This is a Good One smiley_thumbsup
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Offline serg

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2013, 02:15:34 PM »
Hello friends!
Arthur makes vacuum drying + thermal. I did a vacuum drying function with thermal volume of 3 m3. I'm looking for furniture style "country" or "cowboy style" in Timberfreym. New home I'll put pictures on the forum.
Sergey.

 


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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2013, 10:55:04 PM »
Hello friends!
Wooden house on Lake Baikal, Irkutsk, Siberia. Pine Thermo diameter 350 mm w = 5.6 %. Canadian technology, popular in Russia this method of construction.
In America, this method works?
Sergey



 

 

Offline thecfarm

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2013, 06:58:50 AM »
A very interseting thread.  ;D    I'm glad I choose to look at it.
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Offline kderby

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Re: "Siberian house" of pine thermal.
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2013, 01:43:21 AM »
Serge and Arthur,

Thank you for sharing your side of the world with us.  It is really interesting to see how you get things done!

Kderby


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