Note to employees don,t mess with the sawyer

[just_sawing]

Problem is dealing with 21. Year old kids. I run a very relaxed work place and I don,t like drama. Had to tighten up this boy but I haven,t given up on him. He just still hasn't,t figured out that if you keep getting fired there is a reason.
I am going to hang with him because he is a good kid a I have hope. I have figured out a partial solution. His counter part [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] and gets. I pay a premium when we make quota. If he sits down or folds his arms when work is happening he is locked down to base wage. Before people get the wrong idea this is where you are laying back and your partner is having to carry your load while you sit there.

[Solomon]

Before I use a man around the saw I test him to see if he can follow simple instruction, Complete simple tasks like sweeping up my shop and empty the dust collectors.  Then I give him a math test.   If he can solve a 3 4 5 triangle equation, then I will give him some consideration.
He must have a reasonably good comand of the English Language as well.  So I have reletively few problems with hired help.  And there is a thousand more just like him standing in line.  I dont have to tolerate a lot of  foolishness.
I have one regular kid 24 years old.
Brilliant kid and works his heart out for me. If he'd quit drinking , he'd be as fine of specimen of a man as I've ever known.
 

[Sawyer1981]

My helpers don't speak English and I don't speak Spanish so it makes things rough sometimes

[Solomon]

My helpers don't speak English and I don't speak Spanish so it makes things rough sometimes

You must be in Texas or Arizona

[kderby]

My young helper does not really want to work at a sawmill but he does not know where he wants to be.  I can put up with that as he is tailing.  I sure will be appreciative if I get a young man who wants to be here. 


The best indicator of wanting to be at the mill is a worker thinking ahead, about the process.   When I see a worker getting it done right without having to be told, I smile and make a note of it.

KDerby

[hackberry jake]

Cedarman, I like the way you look at things and I would have loved to work with you when I was a younger man. Solomon, what's a 3 4 5 triangle question? I graduated college algebra with the only "A" in the class, just wondering what the question/questions is/are. Kderby, like I said earlier, I would've loved to work at a sawmill when I was younger, heck I did! And loved it! I loved it so much I have spent a pretty good chunk of change on sawmill and woodworking equiptment over the last 8 or so years and I am still way in the red, but it's just money and I can't take it with me so I might as well slend it on something productive  8) ;D 8) ;D

[Carpenter]

Jake, I don't know the exact question Solomon was asking but the 3 4 5 triangle is just a way of checking for a 90 degree angle.  It's geometry not algebra.  Pathagream theorum.  A squared + B squared = C squared.  9+16=25.  Carpenters use it all the time to build square stuff.  Measure 3' one way and 4' the other way and if it's 5' between the two marks the two pieces are at a 90 degree angle.  Simple.  And to be more accurate you can increase your line of sight and use longer measurements.

[beenthere]

hackberry
I'd suspect a²+b²=c²

or 9 + 16 = 25  for a right triangle.

Carp beat me to it..  ;D

[hackberry jake]

Dang! And I thought I was so smart. I knew the 3,4,5 triangle was a right triangle but I didn't know the question or how it related to sawmills. I guess something being square is pretty important to sawmilling. I just didn't correlate the two together in my head. If you really wanna test em ask em some questions with complex (ie imaginary) numbers and see how well they do. The only thing I remember is i is equal to the sq root of -2. You cannot physically have the square root of a negitive number so they call it complex. Really it's imaginary. I'm blabbering now. Thanks for the insight guys. I'll try try to remember that the next time I have to square something up.

[francismilker]

I worked for a yeller' ONCE!   He was my dad.  I decided one day at about age 14 I was gonna stop taking the chewins anymore.  My next memory was me picking myself up off the kitchen floor.  For the next three years I didn't work for him.  I roboted through the motions of what he told me to do step by step but not really caring what the end result was.  If he would've told me to keep shoveling coal into the furnace until the house caught on fire I'd have done it just to prove a point.

As an adult, I learned pretty quickly that any person deserves to be kindly corrected once, sternly warned once, and respectfully cut loose if the one paying and the one recieving pay  don't see eye to eye. 

[WindyAcres]

What about the pay, quite often that is a very important factor, especially when it is low. For example, I wouldn't kill myself for minimum wage and I wouldnt expect someone to do so. Why kill yourself and not be able to pay the bills by the end of the month.. Lets say you pay him 15$/h but give him the option to make 20 or 25$/h when he does good work, that might do it.

In most cases you will have to pay good money for a good guy, if not, you are taking advantage of him. Sometimes that might be ok because you trained him (invested time and money in him) e.g. and its only fair to make some back.. but in general.. maybe it comes down to: treat other people like you want to be treated. Dont forget we are living in 2013, not the 80s anymore.

Cheers

[Ron Wenrich]

I've always liked the policy of giving a bonus based on production.  I've worked most of my life on production, and get paid accordingly.  The sawyer is the central man in that structure, and he should control product flow.  Its important that there are restrictions on quality.  If quality goes down, than so does the bonus.

I always figured a guy doesn't mind busting hump if there is a payoff in there.  Some employees will need a different kind of payoff as opposed to money.  Maybe extra time off or the like.  Each one is different.  As a manager, you have to figure out which one.

The nice thing about the bonus system, the slackers are usually taken care of by other employees.  They know the slacker is cutting into their bonus.  They can make life pretty miserable until they quit.  Problem solved.

[beenthere]

I like what Ron suggests.

Windyacres
Your comment has merit, but it sounds like the chicken/egg first tale. Do you increase pay based on performance, or pay and then expect performance. The employee hired on at min. wage should at least know there is more if performance merits more pay.

Had one son who found a part-time job while in college. He complained after the first day that his assigned job was cutting apart and stacking corrugated board boxes. Said he was hired to do something else.
I suggested to him that they were just trying to find out if he could handle the menial task and how his attitude was toward sticking to the job. And that he would be smart to be the best box cutter and stacker they'd seen, at which time he would be soon promoted to a better position. He was too.

[Al_Smith]

Well there's the tough guy attitude or a more subtile way .Usually tough guys go through a lot of help before it's all over with .If you have a large labor pool the tough guy thing might get it ,if not it won't work out so good .

Times are tough now so it will work for a while but not forever because the employment thing will get better .

If the guy doesn't know what he's doing wouldn't it be better to educate rather than go off like a maniac ?If he's just plain stupid fire him .

Now it's one thing if you have a 30 dollar an hour tradesman who should now better .9-10 dollar an hour kid just exactly how much is he suppossed to know ?If he knew anything he wouldn't be off bearing on a sawmill packing out tie stock .

I've seen entire construction crews pull the pin over someone going off .Good crew too who then became part of the competition thanks to a tough guy superintendent who later got fired himself .

[WindyAcres]

Beenthere- quality/production... Finding the balance is not always easy (that applies to life I guess  :D but your name is a good foundation  ;)) and each situation is different..

Lets say you pay someone 35$/h for off bearing (for normal stuff, nothing where you have to work extremely hard). I bet you he will work pretty good for that! Now pay him 65$ and I am sure he will even work better, but not a whole lot because you can only work so hard.. 
Now pay a off bearer 10$/h and if he does good work, give him 12$/h.. I dont think it will make a difference, it certainly wouldnt for me.

In my profession, I only get paid by production. To ensure quality my work gets checked. I am the kind of guy that wants to to do good and is proud about it. However, I am getting to the point where I feel stupid to do good work and then have to pay 60-80$/h for other people (electrician, mechanic,..) or even more. But I am working on that.. Getting rid of my sawmill might be the first smart choice, leave that to the old guys who think you can make a living at 7$/h- working hard off course! 

I think in a lot of cases a bonus system is the way to go and I believe that most of us want to do a good job (it makes you feel good,..). But like I said, one shouldnt forget the purpose of working. It is to make money to pay your bills plus enjoy life and support other people (not only your kids,etc.). Looking at a slacker, thats the first thing that comes in my mind.

Managing people and getting the best out of them (long term.. not in terms of exploiting) is an art... but when done right, it can be very successful.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi All,

This has been a great thread to read and follow along.   I really like what Ron W. had to say, sounds like Amish country.  It really does take hold of you, that general culture, whether your are Amish, or just close to it. I still only wear collarless shirts buttoned to the top like my mentors, it reminds me of who gave me the roots of my craft, and work ethic.  Just reading Ron's description sounds all to familiar on how he runs things.  I still only pay and work by production or set contract, and have few of the many challenges I read here.  Young or old, if they feel like they are part of a team, and have a stake in it, 90% of the time, they rise to that expectation.

Solomon I loved your piece about 3-4-5, every good carpenter/craftsperson I know uses it in some capacity for something and the fact you are using it as a teaching and feting method for your work force is brilliant.

Jake You sound like "math guy."  The 3-4-5 has many uses some simpler some way more complex, from squaring stuff to designing within the "golden mean."  If any young folk are with me form more than a few weeks, I give them a good "scientific calculator," as a "thank you," during some adjournment meeting. They are expected to be able to know and operate all trigonometric functions, and when I get that inevitable, "why," I explain that Pythagoras can only take you so far.  They need to know how to solve problems both ways, traditionally with "geometrics," and with "trigonomics."

Taylor M. comment speaks to a running event on every job I oversee that has more than one fellow working.  The "morning meeting," and "adjournment," both would always take place when I was a kid starting out.  Whether just cutting joints or raise'n a barn, you could bank on have'n a "meeting," before any activity started, including going home.  That way, wood didn't get left out in the ran, tools got accounted for, and you got a handshake and "well wish," home.

Cedarman, your management style reminds my of something I was taught in the Marines about good leaders.  Bad mangers "bark," good mangers "teach."  The teacher/mentor type manger is always more productive, which also breeds intense loyalty in there charges.

Regards,

jay

[Ron Wenrich]

I wear collarless shirts, as well.  They're called tee shirts.   ;)

Any bonus system needs to have a base hourly rate.  You get paid more when you work more.  When things break down, that lower hourly rate doesn't kill the company, and it puts a little hustle under them to get things fixed so the pay rate can go up.  The places that use it also have a minimum where the bonus kicks in.  It has to be easily attainable to be effective.

My son deals cards at a casino.  His pay is also based on how well of service they provide.  Its hard to think of that as a production job, but it is.  They have to be able to deal so many hands an hour.  The more hands you deal, the more potential there are for tips.  Those tips go into a pool, and all dealers get a cut.  His pay changes each day. but the incentive is still the same.  Produce a good product in a timely manner and have a happy customer, and you'll earn more.

[Cedarman]

There is only one reason a company hires a person.  That is so the person hired will make them more money than the cost of having that person on the payroll.
I have told several that are looking for a job what is the only reason I would hire them.  It takes a little bit of conversation to get around to the fact that if they don't make me  money, then I won't be able to pay them.  In turn it is my job to see that they have the tools and the information to work as efficiently as possible.

Anyone that says they don't make enough to work that hard has not figured out that first you produce to the maximum you can at whatever job you are doing.  If you don't get a raise soon, it will be obvious that your hard work is wasted and that the next place is where you should be.  It does not take long for word to get around who is a hard worker and who is not.

Since a person can quit a job at any time, how can an employee be exploited.

Our perks include being able to use vacation time one day at a time as needed, sell a day of vacation if they need quick money, take off early for kids, 50 # of peanuts during the winter,  pretty good bonuses at company Christmas dinner at restaurant of their choice with guest. Probably a few others that I can't think of.
Pay is a little better than other mills.  Never had a layoff in 25 years, so they know there is always work.

I know we are not the best place to work at, but we are not the worst.  Several have quit for greener pastures, but came back when they found out the grass was astroturf.  Good people get to come back if they leave the bridge intact.

This whole thread has got me to thinking.  Why isn't there a class in high school called " How to be a good employee, how to be a good employer".  Why should employees and employers have to keep reinventing the wheel?

[tyb525]

Cedarman, I think part of the problem is schools don't teach the value of a good work ethic anymore.

[Al_Smith]

It doesn't make any difference what business a person is in the bottom line is if you don't make a profit you can't stay in business .

Having said that it's also a known fact some lines of business have a greater potential than others for making a profit .Just like some occupations simpley pay more than others .

Not everybody is cut out to be a mill hand nor a plumber ,electrician or a rocket scientist ,MD or lawyer .

In the past when I was in a supervisery position I've had to let a few go because for one reason or another they just could not produce .More times because they wouldn't come to work .However I never bellered at them like bull or tried that Marine Corps DI stuff .Tell them how it is and let it go at that .Shape up or ship out --ex navy ya know . ;)

[rooster 58]

    It seems that today's children do not learn work ethic, nor do they learn a sense of responsibility. Most kids don't have chores or taught to do simple tasks, yet the parents are taxi services for activities and sports and visiting other kids for play time and such. The kids get money for the asking and aren't required to do anything in return, so there is no appreciation for the parents and no appreciation for what it means to earn a privelege or some money, hence they do not know the value of work or money.

   So, when they enter the work force; this philosophy spills over and the kid is not prepared to understand what it means to work for a living. They expect a top wage with no skills, not even the idea that you have to produce an ability to be an asset to an employer. It even happens with college grads who think that a degree means they're supposed to be handed a nice salary and everything that goes with that.

    The number one complaint I hear from employers in the construction, forestry, and other such professions is the lack of good help. The complaints are that they are unreliable, are tardy or miss work frequently, drug and alcohol issues, and the lack of desire to work steady and learn, or even take an interest by paying attention to whatever is going on.

[Al_Smith]

Well some times you just have to show them where the bear shat in the woods to clear the air .

In my life time I suppose I've been involved directly or indirectly in the training of about 150-200 apprentices and proudly say about 95 or higher percentages have turned out as excellant journeymen .You always have that few that for one reason or another are untrainable .

Just recently ,cute little five foot nothing female ,first hour on the job tried to tell me  how to trouble shoot .I just ignored her for about 4-5 days ,never showed her a thing ,let her be stupid .

She inquired of another  tradesman what was going on and he informed her I was doing this kind of work before she was even a twinkle in her daddys eye .She'll be alright ,she got the message loud and clear . ;)

[hamish]

Just recently ,cute little five foot nothing female ,first hour on the job tried to tell me  how to trouble shoot .I just ignored her for about 4-5 days ,never showed her a thing ,let her be stupid .

She inquired of another  tradesman what was going on and he informed her I was doing this kind of work before she was even a twinkle in her daddys eye .She'll be alright ,she got the message loud and clear . ;)

Basically yes she most likely did get your message and will just accept your ignorance.  You might have learned something from her.

Every person has something to share.
Being part of the problem, does nothing to help.

[Al_Smith]

Playing a smart azz to a well experianced tradesman will not get the little lady much either if truth be known .

The good Lord gave us  two ears and one mouth ,look at the ratio .

Besides that fact old farts like me already know how ,somebody who is learning should show a little respect I'd think ,don't you ?
You can't explain anything to anybody if their tongue doesn't stop wagging long enough so you can get a word in edgewise .Ignorance indeed !Good grief . :

[WH_Conley]

When I was in the Carpenter's I was the one that always got the apprentices. Most of the old codgers had forgot they started out young and dumb and knew it all too.
I have heard all kinds of crazy questions. I tried to explain why something wouldn't work and why we did things the way we did. There were even a few time I have learned something from them. Some of my apprentices are still in the trades, some have on to another trade. Same thing around the mill. I have one guy that worked for me and asked questions, he owns his own mill now. I have another that is eager, it looks like he may be running the day to day operations around here sometime in the future. Some you are better off just finding a replacement for. No need to get worked up and blowing a gasket yourself.