Eastern Red Cedar for shingles

[JRC]

Has anyone ever produced shingles from ERC for shingles. I have a customer that would like some, but I'm concerned with the knots in them. Other choice would be white oak. These will be cut on a WM with the shingle attachment (I'll have to dig it out,hasn't been used in over 15 years). Any ideas on pricing per square, with me suppling material?

Thanks,
John

[mesquite buckeye]

Just how knotty is your cedar???? If not too bad, you could cut so the knottier parts get cut out.. Problem is knots cut square on will leak water through the center radial cracks. Maybe less if cut as spike knots. If you really want to make a lot of work, you could rive shake shingles out of it, leaving the wood curve around the knots.

White oak is easier. Black locust would be really good also, or black walnut heartwood, probably not good for anything else..... 8) 8) 8) ;D

[drobertson]

Never made any, but a friend did, however he ended up using red oak, they turned out nice,  I would say knot could be an issue, 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Most ERC is so small in diameter that the wood is prone to warping (especially cup) unless quartersawn.  Also, much of today's ERC has sapwood streaks, so is not too decay resistant.  White oak heartwood is a better choice, especially when q-sawn.  I am talking about exterior exposures.

[LeeB]

Warping? Pretty stable in my experiance. Agree about the diameter possibly being a problem.

[bandmiller2]

Up here in the northeast white cedar is the wood of choice.Red cedar, wile durable, does not weather well it turns dark all most black in some cases.White cedar turns that pretty weathered gray look. Frank C.

[Gasawyer]

I made approx 300 for a customer last year. You do need a log of about 16-18" in diameter for 8" shingles. Just like the other guys have said cut your blocks around the knots. Small knots aren't a problem, but larger than say 1/4-3/8" better to leave out of the block. As far as the cost look locally or off the internet. If memory serves the ones that I cut were $125 out of my wood, but that was to a friend as well.

[rmack]

I think shakes are generally acknowledged to be longer lasting than shingles, at least WRC is... and they are always split in same as or close to quartersawn orientation.

I always thought the sawing fuzz was part of the earlier deterioration issue with shingles, but maybe it has something to do with the orientation of the shingle in the log?

sapwood is always taken off shakes.

[Solomon]

Here in Virginia we have a tourist attraction in Williamsburg . Its the actual original Colonial Williamsburg where the old Governers Palace is.
Lord Dunmore live there in the years leading up to the Revolutionary War.
I spoke with many of the craftsmen there who do everything as it was done in the 18th century.
  I watched as more than a dozen men turned out wooden shingles by hand using a split piece of wood and
draw knife while seated on a what they called a shingle horse. It had a foot peddle that held down another block of wood that clamped the piece they were making.
  They were making their shingles from cyprus.     They said the only matierals the used for roofs was slate and cyprus.   Slate was used on the more expensive homes and Municipal buildings which still stand in very well maintained condition.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Shingles versus shakes.  What is the difference?  I have always thought of a shake as being a shingle that is made by splitting (or are riven), while a shingle itself is sawn.  Most sawn shingles I have seen are tapered, lengthwise.  Are they ever uniform in thickness and, if so, what are they called?  I cannot recall any riven shingles (or shakes) that were anything but quarter grain, probably to avoid warp (especially cup).  I have seen sawn shingles with various grain patterns, but mostly quarter.

It is interesting that the popularity of asphalt shingles that look somewhat like wood shakes is increasing.

[Cedarman]

Split wood weathers longer than sawn wood because of the structure of wood when it is split versus cutting cross some of the grain with a saw.
ERC shrinks the least of our native woods as moisture changes in the wood and it starts out relatively low compared to other woods.  Also 2 to 4% is oil.
I have had some stacks of ERC 5/8" low grade, meaning lots of sapwood and flat sawn and we see almost no bowing and little to no cupping.  Once in a great while  cedar will cup and that is usually because it is setting in the sun and has non uniform drying.  Fully dry, cup goes away.  You have to get to 12" wide x 3/8" or less to even notice much cupping.  Knot checking is more worrisome.
Cedar sapwood will not deteriorate if it can dry relatively quickly after getting wet.  Sapwood on cedar fence posts more than a foot above the ground is usually sound even after decades of getting wet and dry over the seasons.  In 2007 I took posts from the ground that I planted in 1980 and cut cross sections 4" from bottom of post, at ground level and 2' above ground level.  4" from bottom sapwood was sound, but very discolored, ground level all sapwood gone, 2' sapwood sound except where bark stayed on posts and it was partly deteriorated.
I have shingles on a 45 degree slope on a small roof over a carved cedar log.  There are some knot holes and wood is very gray.  Bottom row show some deterioration along lower edge.  The shingles were made from 1/2" x 4,5 and 6" wide by 18" long.  I have not went up to the roof to see what they look like under the shingles.  I think I will  do that.

[Bibbyman]

The shingle making fixtures I've seen for bandmills have sawn across the grain.  Looks to me like the shingle would drain and last better if sawn with the grain. 

What kind of blade configuration changes would it take to saw with the grain?

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

The church my Dad was pastor of during the sixties was an old frame building that was built during the 20s. The roof was wood shingles. Not sure what type of wood, this was in north-central Florida, between Tallahassee and Gainesville, and I suspect it was cypress.

One day we had to go up in the "attic" to do something. You could look up and see blue sky through the cracks and holes in the shingles. But whenever it rained they closed up due to wood expanding with increased moisture levels and the attic was dry...

Herb

[mesquite buckeye]

If you let it go long enough, the rain comes right on through. We had a barn like that. It is gone, now, too many tornados and leaking roofs. :(

[1woodguy]

several lake homes nearby have ERC shakes not on the roof but used for siding
Gable ends .
they are stained a red orange,

[hackberry jake]

The shingle making fixtures I've seen for bandmills have sawn across the grain.  Looks to me like the shingle would drain and last better if sawn with the grain. 

What kind of blade configuration changes would it take to saw with the grain?

I would think you would need deep gullets, and probably further apart tooth spacing. You sure could line up a bunch of them and make a whack of them with one pass. Clamping will be tricky. Now I'm curious. I may try one with the grain 18" wide this weekend.

[LeeB]

I don't  see the need for any different type of blade. You would still be making a rip cut.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The installation procedures for the past 50 years are such that you cannot see light through the shingles.  i do not know about the 20s.  The present  procedures include sheathing under the shingles and staggered joints and overlap to provide three layers.  Here is a guide that applies to all:
http://www.slideshare.net/wildeagle/how-to-install-cedar-shingles

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

We do not change blades in a sawmill when we plain saw or quarter saw, so I do not know why a different blade would be needed here.

[hackberry jake]

Normal cutting, plain and quarter are both cutting across the grain leaving you with small pieces of sawdust. Cutting with the grain will yield easier cutting and muh longer strips of sawdust. Have you ever cut with the grain using a chainsaw? My chainsaws chute frequently clogs with long slivers when cutting with the grain. It may play havoc on a band mill.

[1woodguy]

  Quite a difference with a chainsaw I agree.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

When cutting shingles, we would always cut ALONG the grain, which means lengthwise in a log.  The choice discussed here is whether to cut so the wide surface is parallel to the rings (flatsawn or plain sawn) which means that we are cutting with the grain, or cutting so that the wide face is quartersawn, which means we are cutting across the growth rings, or across the grain.  This later direction gives more stability to the wood, but, as mentioned, cedars tend not to be that unstable.

The word grain has perhaps nine different and confusing meanings, so initially, I and others might have been able to avoid confusion if we had gone into more detail.  Hope this helps.

[Bibbyman]

We do not change blades in a sawmill when we plain saw or quarter saw, so I do not know why a different blade would be needed here.

My question is about cutting "sideways",  not end to end (rip?), or across. I need a picture.

This way the teeth marks would be in the same direction as the length of the log - or in this case, a bolt.

We had a customer that set up mobile homes.  He wanted a price for making oak wedges.  Kicker was, they had to be sawn with tooth marks point to head, not across.

[Bibbyman]

 

Here is a bolt clamped across the mill. So the blade would enter the side of the log.

I borrowed this picture from ElectricAl.

[1woodguy]

 
    the picture  is how I would cut with the grain on a bandsaw
Back before I used plastic wedges felling I made wedges from hardwood same way the trailer man wanted