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Author Topic: Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers  (Read 10738 times)

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Offline L. Wakefield

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2001, 08:37:27 AM »
   So this is like wooden 'bricks' and mortar? Is there any problems with the fact that these 'bricks' are round, or do they sit ok in the mortar? If you were going to debark them anyway, would it make sense to cut off slabs and square them up? Then they'd be more like brix.   LW
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Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2001, 12:13:32 PM »
It's also known as stackwall construction.
In a stackwall construction short lengths of logs typically 16"-24" but sometimes shorter are embedded in mortar so that you are looking at the end of the logs when you look at the walls.
I have these are pretty energy efficient buildings especially given the thickness of the walls, but I'm not sure what type of wood they used or how they prevent it from rotting in the long term.
There are probably lots links available for information about this type of construction.
Bill
Bill

Online Don P

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2001, 03:20:21 PM »
R-values I've seen are 24-48 depending on who's doctoring the math.
They try to use softwoods that are durable and have low shrinkage values. Rot intrigues me...anyone ever seen EMC numbers on mortar? They do try to build 24" or more above grade and put a big hat on it. Improper seasoning and loosening of the logs appear to be the biggest problems.
The main appeal is the low input cost so slabbing is probably too much cost for most but I might try a wall like Jeff described, I usually turn branches into 4x4x4', cut em in half and go. Another appeal to me is the fact that they are using directly what is often cull, no chipping, glueing,etc just build with whats in the yard.
Was toying with idea of guest cabin with this to window level then piece-en-piece log walls from sills up.
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Offline Larch Man

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2001, 03:45:57 PM »
This material sounds like just the type we are looking for and the reason that I started this particular discussion board on tamarack. Does anybody know how much of this is available, where it's available, and at what price? When you say they just build with what's in the "yard"; are you referring to a log yard like at a sawmill or do you actually mean someones back yard? Does it occur statewide or in a particular area of the state? My company is interested in buying tamarack and lots of it (60,000 cords/year). Any particulars would be appreciated.
Tim Ryan

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2001, 05:05:52 PM »
Sorry Larch Man, these are small property owners harvesting a few cords. I was hoping in your processing you or someone here knew of a good way of bark removal.I have heard rumors in the past of spray ons that loosened tight bark.
However while I have you here another off topic that interests me is the movement of extractives in a piece of wood....Is it possible to move the stuff of heartwood and redistribute evenly throughout the wood? Sort of like steaming walnut, no sapwood. But maybe with rot resistant species move those compounds evenly throughout the wood. Any thoughts?
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Offline Larch Man

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2001, 03:45:56 PM »
Don,
The only way I know of to remove the bark, short of an industrial debarker, is with a drawknife. It will peel it right down to the wood and is not difficult. I'm not familiar with spray ons.
As far as the question of evenly distributing the extractives throughout the wood, I can't help you there. I'm a forester. I think you need someone with a backround in wood technology or wood science.
Good luck.
Tim Ryan

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2001, 06:08:58 AM »
My wood science book explains that conversion from sapwood to heartwood may be due to a lack of oxygen.  This is a gradual process, so duplicating it would be both expensive and time consuming.

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Offline L. Wakefield

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2001, 10:26:06 AM »
   I obviously don't have a degree in wood science or anything- but a living tree is very functionally divided, in terms of materials' flow. To spread material from heartwood to other areas, even in deadwood, would probably require such disruption of these previously functional channels that one might well lose structural integrity as well.   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2001, 03:54:43 PM »
No, heartwood is actually stronger than the sapwood.  This is due to the chemical changes in the wood structure.
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Offline L. Wakefield

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2001, 06:50:07 AM »
   yes, I believe that- but I think the question was; whether there was a way to spread substances found in the heartwood throughout the rest of the wood. I think this would have to be by active process, passive process, or via natural channels. Are there natural channels going from heartwood out to the xylem/phloem portions of the tree (I don't think so)

  Would you spread the stuff by diffusion? (pretty slow work considering the impermeable characteristics of either wood en bulk or individual cells- cell walls, cellulose, and all.)

   Would you drive it by some type of electrophoresis? (yeah, clamp those electrodes on there- spike one into the heartwood, put another set girdling the outer perimeter, and smoke that baby!- hmm- Frankensteins' tamarack!)
 
  I just couldn't see spreading it without disrupting the natural characteristics that make wood- well- wood- durable, waterproof, yata yata.
 
  Oh, or you could soak it in oil, or stick it in water like so much of a celery stalk and hope the stuff would spread that way. (The soaking in oil-soluble materials has worked to a limited extent in terms of  creosote or other material soaking into the OUTER layers.

  Enlighten me..      lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2001, 02:20:40 PM »
Well, there is an avenue from the heartwood to the sapwood.  It is called the rays.  They are quite evident in the oaks.  I believe all woods have them.

The chemicals that are found in heartwood are formed from the lack of oxygen.  Therefore, they won't translocate through osmosis.  They aren't soluable.

Chemical treatments such as creosote are put in under pressure.  This kind of squeezes the chemicals into the sapwood.  But, not much gets into the heartwood.  That is due to the permeability of the heartwood.  There isn't much.

I don't know of any way of making the heartwood chemicals leach into the sapwood.  It is a natural process and can't be reproduced by mechanical methods.  Even if it could, it would be too expensive for little benefit.
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Offline Hugh Darty

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2001, 06:37:12 PM »
What about steaming it, like walnut. Layer heartwood sawdust over the sapwood inside a steam vat. I know it will work on walnut, mayby not tamarak.
Hugh

Online Don P

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2001, 06:49:24 AM »
Cool, I always wondered exactly how that was done,kind of muddies the bold coloring but sure evens out the sapwood.
Have you ever seen a steamed board that was exposed to the elements?
I don't know if we've been noticing what is becoming of the durable species Cedars, Redwood... Chestnut.
Treatment chemicals are one by one being pulled. There is probably some future in growing durable woods.
What stimulates the production of heartwood? Can one make more, faster, with higher amounts of whatever extractive makes that species desirable?
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Offline timberbeast

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2001, 11:20:03 PM »
Lots of tamarack in the central U.P.  We built a bridge over a creek with tamarack stretchers over 20 years ago,  you can still drive a dozer over it. Some loggers might sell it to you if it's worth their time,  but most goes on the pulp pile.  You can get a list of loggers through the Michigan DNR site. Check guys in Delta,  Marquette and Schoolcraft counties.  I'm sure someone would set aside a stack for you.
Where the heck is my axe???

Offline Larch Man

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2001, 07:18:28 AM »
Thanks for that information. Tamarack and other species of the genus Larix are very durable so it doesn't surprise me that the bridge you built using it is still capable of supporting heavy loads.

The material that we would purchase is the same that would be used by the pulp mills and, in fact, could still be used by them after we are finished with it. The price we pay would have to be greater than or equal to the pulp price in order to capture the material from the logger or landowner. I assume that by "worth their time" you mean separating the tamarack from other species in the deck? I am fully aware that there is a cost for sorting, but I'm not familiar with what that is in your part of the world as I work and live in Montana. Any ideas on those costs and the cost to purchase the logs?

I would need more than a stack, as you say. I want to purchase 60,000 cords a year. The harvest numbers that I've seen for Michigan do not support that volume, but I don't know if that is because of lack of demand for tamarack or because the timber is not available.
Tim Ryan

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2001, 12:47:07 AM »
Larch Man,  I can point you to a guy named Terry Kanerva who operates out of Rock.  Tell him "Zap" told you about him.  I don't know where he sells his stuff,  but he's a pretty big operation,  much bigger than I am,  and he cuts it all and has the heavy equipment to do it.  I guess it would have to cover his shipping and over pulp prices,  but you may be able to work something out.  He's a real nice fellow,  but he also cuts cedar,  and that and veneer logs is the money wood where we cut.  I wouldn't count on 60,000 cords,  but you never know.  The pulp prices have been pretty low lately.  I hesitate to put his phone or email on a public forum,  but I could shoot an email off to him and have him get back to you if he's interested.  Let me know at zap@netwurx.net.  It may take awhile,  he's jobbing out in the waist-deep snow now,  he's got a couple of huge harvesters and processors,  so he works all winter.
Where the heck is my axe???

Offline Larch Man

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Re: Tamarack availability, cost, and buyers
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2001, 07:42:54 AM »
Zap,

Thanks for the help.  I see that Rock is located in the center of the U.P. which is about the best location as far as timber and pulp mill locations that could utilize our extracted chips. I've sent off an e-mail reply to you including my address, phone number, and e-mail address. If Terry responds, I'll give him a call and ask him some questions.
Tim Ryan


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