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Author Topic: Eastern Colorado  (Read 3871 times)

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Offline Autocar

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Eastern Colorado
« on: April 17, 2013, 11:43:56 AM »
I seen on the news last night where they had a dust type storm and a fellow was walking across a pasture feild with six to eight inches of fine dirt drifted over it. Its to bad we can't take abandoned pipe lines and pump water from this area while we have it running out of our ears to a man made lake out there and then farmers could pay the pipe line companys a fee to get irrigation water.It seems to me it would be a win win situation for everyone.
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Offline beenthere

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2013, 11:55:52 AM »
 :) ;)
Seriously?  Any idea what that would cost? And who would end up paying for it?  ;) 

Nice thought tho.  :)
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Offline 240b

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2013, 02:41:50 PM »
Yesterday in northern az the wind blew 40 mph all day with guests to 60, section of I 40 was closed all day. line of trucks parked on highway was 14 miles according to the paper this am.  I drove out toward the dust cloud on back roads, it was aleast 500 feet high.

 

 
(bad cell phone pic,sorry)   All this dust comes off the overgrazed areas. There are places which are starting to look like the deserts of north africa.. Its just the result of poor range management. 

Offline clww

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2013, 02:44:10 PM »
I've seen the same thing in Nevada.
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Offline terry f

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 02:28:15 AM »
    People in the west allready know that water is gold, its only going to get worse.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 04:31:54 AM »
Years ago when we deer hunted near Vale on the return trip we stopped at a KOA near Lyman Col .to shower etc .That gent if I recall correctly said his well was 3000 feet deep .

Quite frankly you can't tell eastern Col from western Kansas .After Denver it starts loolking like Colorado .

Offline clww

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 09:44:15 AM »
Very true, Al. The first hunting trip I was on to CO, when we were driving, I was somewhat disappointed when we crossed the state line. I was thinking "Colorado. Mountains everywhere". Not so until about halfway across the state heading west on I-70.
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Offline Autocar

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 06:47:24 PM »
Like Terry said when you don't have water its like gold, so yes I think it makes sence to pump it out of our flooded rivers and fill man made lakes and then sell it to the consumers out west. Who ever thought they would sell bottled water for a buck,anything is possible it just depends how bad a fellow wants it !
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Offline thecfarm

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 08:27:36 PM »
Does Poland Spring water make it to OH??  That is big business here in ME.
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Offline Autocar

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 08:52:55 AM »
To be honest I don't pay much attention to the names on bottled water. It floors me how many people around here that have bottled water delivered to there homes but here again most of them came from town and think there water wells are polluted. My well is 197 feet and its very good water but maybe thats why I have a hard time getting to sleep because I glow green or something.
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Offline Axe Handle Hound

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 01:40:54 PM »
Piping water across the US is a really complicated issue.  If you remember just a few years back all of the US states and provinces in Canada bordering the Great Lakes signed the Great Lakes Basin Compact which prevents water from the Great Lakes and associated watersheds from being piped outside those same watersheds. Municipalities outside the Great Lakes Basin looking to get permission to withdraw water from the lakes or from a watershed feeding the lakes now have to apply to all of the states and Canada for permission and that's not easy to do.  Taking water from here to try and modify the growing potential of a naturally arid region might work in the short term, but isn't ultimately sustainable.  Look at the situation with the Ogallala aquifer.  It's being depleted at an alarming rate due to irrigation of arid regions.  You're better off cultivating crops and using best management practices that suit the landscape rather than try to change the landscape to suit the crops.  Aside from the ecological issues, there are economic concerns as well.  As beenthere asked earlier, who pays for the pipe?   If Colorado pays for it does that entitle them to water regardless of the situation in the Midwest?  What if there's a drought in the Midwest and there isn't enough water to go around?  Who pays for the treatment of the water to ensure no invasive species from the Midwest like quagga or zebra mussels or asian carp are inadvertently transported to Colorado where they could have a severe negative economic impact?  If those species do end up there will the Midwest state supplying the water be sued as a result?  The solution seems simple, but the question is pretty complex. 

Offline Autocar

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2013, 02:01:40 PM »
Axe Handle you have more questions then I have answers  :D I understand what your saying Marathon Pilpe Line Company told me a number of years ago that they have millions of miles of abandoned pipe lines across the U.S. and it would be pretty simple to pump water though them. And I don't want to pump water out of the great lakes or any place else but it seems to me when you have rivers at record flood stage I would rather see it go to places that needs it rather then out into the ocean.
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Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2013, 02:12:41 PM »
Well put. We are talking about surface flood waters here, not normal flows. There was a project engineered in the 1960's to bring water from Alaska and Western Canada down to irrigate lands in the West, Plains and Northwestern Mexico. Went nowhere at the time. There was no food crisis. As we approach 2020 and a huge world population, food costs will neccesarily skyrocket (sound familiar?) This will make more and more projects of this type economic.

Short history lesson. In Arizona, dams were proposed, I believe in the 1880's to irrigate and supply water for cities throughout Arizona. They didn't start to build them until the 1920's and didn't stop until the 1980's. One hundred years, but they all got built eventually. Neccesity will compel us to reevaluate projects like this. If we follow the same pattern, that would get it done in 2064. Not so far away, but few of us will be there to see it.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2013, 05:11:34 PM »
The question is with all the irrigation in for instance western Kansas and eastern Colorado really paid off in terms of crops produced .From what I hear all it's done is lower the underground aquafer .

Likewise just how much good did all that government set aside programs do except take highly productive farm land out of production in the great lakes  states .Has it really worked ?

Well it depends on who you talk to just like the ethanol business .

I mean seriously you could divert all the water from the Mississippi river and the great lakes to parts of Kansas and Arizona and it never ever will be the productive lands that Ohio ,Indiana,Iowa and Illinois are .

These are weather anyone wants to admit it the bread basket states of the USA if not the entire world .Those basically barren desert states  or a portion of them are what they are .It's not a bad thing but they are  not and never will be good crop land .

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2013, 06:51:22 PM »
You are in error, I believe. If you check the soil quality of much of the plains, you will find the soil to be equal or superior to many of the lake states overall. You have to get to Illinois, Iowa etc to get soils as good. Many desert soils are indeed quite fertile. You will find the highest cotton, alfalfa and other yields per acre coming from the desert areas of Arizona and California.

I'm sure you have eaten some of that water from the Ogallala aquifer in the form of Beef. That is where much of it goes, with the biggest feedlot area in the country in the Texas Panhandle.

Just sayin' :P :o
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Offline terry f

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2013, 08:00:41 PM »
    Out here its sunshine, sand and water, and you can grow anything. Sunshine and sand are free if you own the land, waters a fight, everyone wants it.

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2013, 08:47:29 PM »
The story of most of the West. Great places, not enough water in most of them.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2013, 03:27:17 PM »
Well perhaps it's good country to raise alfalfa but it will not sustain corn and soybeans because unfortunately they require a lot of water .

Yes of course there's zillon cattle feed lots but the corn needs to be shipped in to feed them .As I said I'm smack dab right where that corn comes from .

Sure it would be a grand scheme if somehow some of those western states had more moisture but unfortunately that's not the way things are .To get that moisture I somehow doubt in the near future if there is a grand plan afloat to divert all water from the river systems .Where else could it come from ?

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2013, 03:36:22 PM »
Maybe you should come out west sometime and actually see how things are.

Lots of corn is grown on the high plains, as well as more grain sorghum. This mostly ends up as beef.

They grow corn in Arizona, as well. Also get amazing yields. Corn is not the only cattle feed.

Alfalfa uses two times or more water than a crop of corn.

Shall I go on?

The old project design was to bring glacial meltwater from places like the Yukon and Dawson Rivers up north. Glaciers contain many times more water than is available from places like the midwest. You can look it up if you like.
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Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2013, 04:31:09 PM »
Don't be thinking I don't know anything about the midwestern cornbelt. I grew up there right near you.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2013, 04:44:49 PM »
I've been through a number of the western states but evidently not in any area along I 70 having much moisture .Sure I saw milo and sugar beets in some sections but not much corn .

Then again I suppose I could be missing something .Like for example people thinking the entire state of Ohio is flat land like the north western and north  central areas of the state .Yet to the far east and south there are slopes that could only raise trees and mountain goats or cattle with short legs on the uphill side so they didn't roll down the hill .

Do go on though .I would think even if they could get glacial melt which would nomally go else where I'd think it would require a huge ,I mean huge amount of pipelines or a canal equal to the Mississippi river . How exactly would they propose to do that ?You certainly can't do it with a garden hose .

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2013, 04:54:52 PM »
Now on the subject of surface run off .I forget exactly which river it was ,maybe the Rio Grande or some other that all the water got sucked out of it and the Mexicans are raising a big stink about .

Where exactly does the Yukon and Dawson rivers normally go ?If they dump into Canada although the Canadians are nice bunch I can't hardly see them giving up all that water just because they are nice people . You'd stand a better chance of getting free crude oil from OPEC . ;)

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2013, 05:59:04 PM »
Any such project would be an international cooperative effort. I didn't come up with the idea. It was done by the US Army Corps. of Engineers. It is actually quite interesting, and supposedly there would be a slight energy gain from hydro power generated along the route.

By the way, the high plains in Canada are also a bit dry....

Just saying...

With money, all things are possible.
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Offline Autocar

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2013, 06:59:09 PM »
Ive been all over the western U.S. and Canada and they grow some nice corn even in Alberta where its dry the Huderite Communitys were growing corn and then it would freeze and stand in the feild like green foder and in late winter they would turn there cows into it. I always thought we had big farms here till I went though North and South Dakota and into the plains of Canada. I once drove the top of the world highway from Tok Alaska to Dawson Yukon and when I sat on the banks of the Yukon River waiting fot the ferry it looked like a half mile wide and the current was moving it floored me thinking how much fresh water was headed for the Beaufort Sea. I guess I just can't figure I still think a 36 inch pipe pumping water west word could help out the area. One day there pumping gas and the next crude oil so I would think they could pump water the same way in older abandoned lines  ::).
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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2013, 07:31:39 PM »
With rare exception, corn flows west to east. Only exception I know is some corn that used to ship to California to the big dairies out there. But so many of them moved to western Kansas. Corn, like any commodity, costs to ship. The corn is cheapest out across Nebraska and western Kansas. Its cheaper to ship cattle to there than haul the corn east. At a 5 or 6 lb of corn per pound of beef, just cheaper to move the cattle.  Hence the feedlots out there. There are other considerations; weather, plus location of the packing houses. Also a tolerance of them out there.

This all may change as the aquifier out there gives up. Without water, the ground is more suited to other crops and uses. But the varieties of corn just get better. Wheat can be substituted for some of the corn, same as grain sorghum. And some of the other side crops can be used for the lesser part of rations, such as sunflower meal for protien.

Offline 240b

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2013, 10:05:03 PM »


With money, all things are possible.
Just because somethings possible doesn't mean it ought to be...   Arizona is well on its way to being a real desert... not one with native plants, just sand, The water being put on those fields has so much salt in it, nothing will be growing there sometime in the future. You can see it up in SE UT and SW CO already. From the little I've read this is a problem with irrigated agriculture everywhere in the world, unfortunately.  I recently read something about how the city of Las Vagas is putting in a 56" pipe up into the central part on NV and basicly going to suck two valleys dry... I've forgotten the details but the ranchers that live in those valleys are not to happy. 

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2013, 11:41:40 PM »
The salt issue can easily be managed with tile drains to leach the salt out of the soil. We could ship it back east where they would call it fertilizer.
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Offline 240b

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2013, 02:45:27 AM »
Thats interesting, so you can flush the salt out out the soil with the same water?  Or do the tiles somehow prevent the saline ground water from leaching up?    I've never heard of salt being used as fertilizer, anywhere..

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2013, 04:08:30 AM »
It would be possible to flush salt out with more water. The trick would be to have a significant portion  of the water flowing Through the soil to carry that excess salt away. Problem is that you then need to apply maybe 2X the water, as 1/2 of it is being drained away.

Irrigation is used quite commonly here in NZ, but only to make up for low rainfall during summer etc. Other times are year there is plenty of excess rain to leach that salt away, into the ground water, and hence into the rivers and out to the sea.

But in an arid area you need to take those extra precautions as you don't have the natural rainfall for the other 6 months, so salt build up is an issue if you only irrigate enough for the plants, and don't have that run-off. You keep adding water with a trace of salt, but it's all evaporated via the plants, the salt is left behind and concentrated over the years.

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Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2013, 10:25:16 AM »
Thats interesting, so you can flush the salt out out the soil with the same water?  Or do the tiles somehow prevent the saline ground water from leaching up?    I've never heard of salt being used as fertilizer, anywhere..

You might have to do that maybe once every year or two. The "salt" we are talking about is actually a complex of things like NaCl, CaCO3, and lots of things like Iodine and Selenium that are actually deficient in many high rainfall areas. It was a bit of a joke, but it's true that applying our waste salts to highly leached soils would be beneficial in terms of pH and micronutrients. :)
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2013, 07:14:59 PM »
I've been doing my best to digest this theory but I can't wrap my head around it.

So they came up with a scheme to divert a portion of the glacial melt that feeds the Yukon and Dawson rivers to meander over the Rocky Mountains and water portions of Arizona .That would be a good trick all by itself considering thousands of feet of elevation changes .

Okay green grass in Tucson aside what about those rivers that evidently dump into the Beaford sea or whatever it's called ,cold water  .Does the Corps of engineers really think they have the knowledge to change several  zillion years of geoligical fact .Not to mention breaking the bank of the USA if not Canada if they go for it which if they are smart they won't .

Did anybody on this group of wizards ever consider the environmental impact even diverting 10 percant of that water would do .

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2013, 08:51:23 PM »
There was no EPA at the time, so no environmental impact statement...

Not water to only Arizona, much of the west and high plains and Sonora, Mexico. Interesting stuff, as there is already a delivery system in the SW to both parts of CA and AZ. I'm sure it would easily connect to other existing systems as well.

The Snake river passes very close to the Columbia, the Colorado system extends into Utah and Colorado, south to Sonora. The system utilizes existing river systems and existing dams, as well as new dams and canals. I haven't looked at the thing for probably 25 years, but it is indeed well thought out. and it would be the biggest public works project in world history. It would probably more than double the food that could be grown.

I'm not advocating this at this time, only stating what will come when enough hungry people are demanding to be fed make it necessary.

The world is full of impossible things that eventually got done.

The transcontinental railroad.

Telephone.

Travel faster than the speed of sound.

ICBM

A missile that can shoot down an incoming missile.

Stealth technology.

Going to the moon.

and on and on.
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Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2013, 08:57:29 PM »
Not so much green grass in Tucson, except during the Monsoon in the summer. Try LA for that one. They got their water from the Owens Valley, east of the Sierra Nevada a long time ago.
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Offline pappy19

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2013, 08:45:26 AM »
Many years ago there was a move by a bunch of private investors to pipe water from the Great Lakes down to the Wyoming coal fields and another pipeline back to the refineries. The coal companies would pulverize the coal and mix with the water to form a coal-slurry. At the time, the railroads were making a ton of money off of hauling coal, still do today. Anyway, the RR's said they would not allow any encroachment permits for the pipelines to cross any their RR tracks. It went to court and appeals kept it going for almost 20 years. The RR companies lost but by that time, the private money dried up. Also along the way from the Great Lakes to Wyoming, some irrigation water stations were planned. Could have been an interesting idea.
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Offline beenthere

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2013, 10:15:52 AM »
pappy
Thanks for your comment, as it reminded me of the Great Lakes pact that is set up to protect the water there. Quite a bit of info about the coal slurry proposal, as well as other proposals ongoing over the years about using water in the lakes.
Can read some here with a good map showing the Great Lakes and the diversions into and out of the GL now.
http://www.watershedcouncil.org/water%20resources/great%20lakes/threats-to-the-great-lakes/great-lakes-water-use-and-diversion/

Now a lot of concern to protect the GL from getting invasives that will cause problems.
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Offline Autocar

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2013, 04:41:07 PM »
Al I was just comenting on how much freash water was flowing down the Yukon river, and didn't want anyone to think I thought they should pump it any where. The only pumping I talked about was when the rivers here at home or the rivers west of us were at flood stage it would be nice is we could schare it with the folks west of use by pumping it over abandoned pipe lines.
Bill

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2013, 07:02:47 PM »
Yeah but this river system depends on exactly where you're at in the state .

The stuff where I'm at goes north to lake Erie and eventually over the falls of Niagra .Slightly south it goes to the Ohio river  and eventually to the Mississippi . Flood stage on our rivers usually is short lived ,a couple days ,week at best .

While it might be a noble thought the massive amounts of water although small by comparison to the Mississippi is massive .It would take huge pipe lines and huge pumps just to make a dent in moving that much water .

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2013, 06:21:20 AM »
we figured out how to pump water from Kuait to Bagdad . . any effort is a start
We have a lot of good boys and girls in harms way
lets all support them and their familys.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2013, 08:36:25 AM »
We can definitely build the pipeline and pump vast amounts of water, but to what end?  We're throwing money and resources at something simply to prove we can do it.  It doesn't matter how much we try, we'll never be able to sustainably turn arid desert climates into lush farmfields.  Sure we can prove that desert soils can grow crops and they probably will grow them amazingly well, but only as long as the water continues to flow.  Eventually, it will dry up.  We've proven to be highly effective at using up what at first appeared to be an inexhaustible resource.  I still stand by my earlier point of learning to work within the limitations of the environment we exist in.  Native Americans successfully grew corn, beans and squash in the hot, arid southwest thousands of years ago by cultivating seed stocks that did well in that environment.  I think we could probably do the same.   

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2013, 10:22:31 AM »
I'm sure we could. I've done it myself. There were very few of them.

We will have to deal with the realities of humanity, among which is the need for enough food.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2013, 01:40:27 PM »
Al I was just comenting on how much freash water was flowing down the Yukon river, and didn't want anyone to think I thought they should pump it any where. The only pumping I talked about was when the rivers here at home or the rivers west of us were at flood stage it would be nice is we could schare it with the folks west of use by pumping it over abandoned pipe lines.
  The problem with diverting the Yukon river is simple.  It flows the wrong way to help anyone but the people in Alaska. The Yukon is a westerly flowing river to a point, it's true flow through out is north. And it empties into the Arctic Ocean.
  That coupled with the fact that it is currently 9' thick ice this time of year. and frozen over for 6 months a year. The river still flows but is limited due to ice. The Yukon is the 2nd fastest flowing river next to the Frazier.
  It was figured that the Yukon river at Dawson produces a little over 1,000,000 horse power per minute. That is a large volume of water to try and harness.
  It would be nice to divert water to the south. It is not impossible, but impractical. The pumping stations required to raise the water up over 10,000' elevation would bankrupt most companies. Then laying pipe line over the roughest most unforgiving ground for the 6000km journey is an engineering nightmare.  Then to service those lines would be a lot of money.
  Keeping the water in liquid form also presents a problem. This is a land where we have 3-6 weeks of -50 temperatures and temperatures have and can reach -70. Not an easy task to keep it flowing.
  The whole proposed project was a pork project, I rank it right up there with the money the US government spent to research the potential to harness the power of the Northern Lights.  ::)  they built a nice research center that was left after one winter and spending close to $500,000 to build.
FB
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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2013, 02:34:18 PM »
Check out some of the canals for irrigation throughout the world. You don't go over the mountain tops, you go around or go through. You would not use pipelines for gigantic volumes of water, you use canals, lift the water high enough to flow to the next lift point, if needed and so on.

You just said it yourself. I have no idea if the numbers you quote are accurate or not, but just for the sake of discussion, let's say that they are. You could do a lot of lifting with 1 million horsepower, just from that one river.

Granted, it freezes in the Great White North in the winter, but please realize that the greatest need for water by crops is during the summer, when the rivers are roaring. Also, water can be stored in reservoirs for future use. This portion of the discussion simply limits the time of the year available, and would require a larger canal system to handle the total volume than a year round system would need to be. The big canal would only need to be extra large in the coldest portion  of the route.

It's so fun to see the reactions to a 50 year old idea that probably will built by our great grandchildren or great great grandchildern. They will make the decisions for the world through different eyes than we do. I hope they will be smarter than we are ;D 8) 8).
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline Axe Handle Hound

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2013, 02:52:38 PM »
I'm sure we could. I've done it myself. There were very few of them.

We will have to deal with the realities of humanity, among which is the need for enough food.

There were fewer of them, but that doesn't mean the idea can't be expanded on.  There must be plenty of additional room out there to plant in if we're talking about piping water that way.  Another reality to consider (and the basis of my argument) is that there is a limit to available water.  It's easy to use it while it exists, why not, right?  What happens when it's gone and you still have hungry people that need food.  At that moment we'll have just passed the problem on down the line to our kids and grandkids all while depleting another resource.  I, like you, hope that they're smarter than we are and can come up with a good solution, but in the meantime I think not doing any additional harm is a good start.       

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2013, 03:48:38 PM »
Again an interesting concept .It would take Caterpillar or most likely some Chinese concern the next 10 years just to make the equipment for such a mass undertaking to start with .If it were some type of pipe line or pipe lines the amount of materials alone would be staggering .

There's a thing called right of way which that alone could be in courts for the next 20-30 years itself .In short a giant can of worms .

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2013, 04:49:48 PM »
There's a thing called right of way which that alone could be in courts for the next 20-30 years itself .In short a giant can of worms .
  To get water to the south it will have to pass through First Nation lands. Here in the Yukon that will never happen. Anything that will have an adverse effect on Salmon spawns, caribou migration, or their way of life,   weather real or perceived will never pass with them.  First Nation Lands cover about 75% of the Yukon so they have a huge say in it.
  Of course of our fearless leader Steven Harper will probably come up with some backroom deal to sell out, and trump democracy, like everything else he's done.
FB
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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2013, 05:58:51 PM »
Just my feelings ,take them with a grain of salt .In terms of agriculture I think what ever grows best should be cultivated in a specific area where it does best .

Nebraska and parts of Kansas  grow wonderfull spring wheat .Ohio ,Indiana,Iowa and  several  others are in the corn belt .Portions of California produce wonderfull fresh vegatables .

I don't think it's realistic to expect every area in the US and Canada to be able to produce every crop as good as specific other areas .What they do in Mexico I have no idea and could care less .

Further more I don't foresee the North American continent starving for lack of food unless some catastrophic natural event takes place .If it did there is nothing in the power of mankind that will ever take charge over mother nature ,so there nothing that could be done about it .

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2013, 06:03:52 PM »
If man had been meant to fly, he would have been given wings. ;D 8) 8) 8)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2013, 06:05:41 PM »
BTW- we should care about Mexico. That's where most of our tomatoes and bell peppers come from, esp in the wintertime. Also most of the tropical fruit.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2013, 06:27:59 PM »
I try not to knowingly buy anything made or grown in Mexico .That's my perogative I guess . ;)

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2013, 07:07:02 PM »
Better not buy an "American" car or truck then. ;D

My Dodge Ram diesel was made in NE Mexico.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2013, 07:30:58 PM »
  Another reality to consider (and the basis of my argument) is that there is a limit to available water.  It's easy to use it while it exists, why not, right?  What happens when it's gone and you still have hungry people that need food.  At that moment we'll have just passed the problem on down the line to our kids and grandkids all while depleting another resource.  I, like you, hope that they're smarter than we are and can come up with a good solution, but in the meantime I think not doing any additional harm is a good start.       

The good news is that it continues to rain and snow, refilling the glaciers, lakes and rivers. It isn't like mining or pumping oil, the resource replentishes itself. Kind of like trees growing, but faster.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2013, 07:55:00 PM »
  Another reality to consider (and the basis of my argument) is that there is a limit to available water.  It's easy to use it while it exists, why not, right?  What happens when it's gone and you still have hungry people that need food.  At that moment we'll have just passed the problem on down the line to our kids and grandkids all while depleting another resource.  I, like you, hope that they're smarter than we are and can come up with a good solution, but in the meantime I think not doing any additional harm is a good start.       

The good news is that it continues to rain and snow, refilling the glaciers, lakes and rivers. It isn't like mining or pumping oil, the resource replentishes itself. Kind of like trees growing, but faster.
  But what happens when that water becomes too contaminated to drink or grow food?  Ever heard of acid rain? we can only pollute so much before it comes back to bite us in the butt.  Ever consider drinking rain water in different places? Here in the north I would but if I was in NYC I wouldn't even on a dare.  I drink from the steams and rivers in the north, but would never drink from the Mississippi River.  Getting water is not a problem....getting pure uncontaminated water is.
FB
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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2013, 08:01:25 PM »
Better not buy an "American" car or truck then. ;D

My Dodge Ram diesel was made in NE Mexico.
Well some of them are indeed made in Mexico .The greatest  insult to me was making Lincolns ,the flagship of Ford motor in Mexico  which I don't think worked out as well as they thought it would .

To get off on my tangent about this it seems the trend towards those who prefer a domestic made product was they did not embrace the idea of a domestic product made out of country .Canada being the exception because we and our neighbors to the north have been trading pardners forever with about even Steven amounts .I personally have no problem with that at all .Fact I think my Mercury might have been made in Wixsom Ont.

Now of course all my bull headedness has nothing to do with watering Arizona . ;D

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2013, 06:59:50 AM »
there are lots of old mines that can work as water tanks maybe even electric turbines
We have a lot of good boys and girls in harms way
lets all support them and their familys.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2013, 08:34:22 PM »
Well consider if you will that one inch of rainfall equals this cut and paste >1 inch of rain falling on 1 acre
is equal to about 27,154 gallons of water./end  .Now multiply that by the size of Arizona alone leaving out the portions of Texas and New Mexico that need water . We're talking huge amounts here for just one measely inch .

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2013, 10:06:30 PM »
My calcs come out to 33475, but whatever. Minor point.

Only a portion of any of these areas is really well suited to irrigation, after taking off mountains, other rough land, national parks, state lands, BLM lands, Indian lands etc.

And we are, in fact talking about huge amounts of water, no doubt.
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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2013, 11:09:54 PM »
Lots of fun thinking about these things true,

Anyone aware that the famous CA valleys growing much of the nations veggies was mostly dry desert up into the 50's when they built the aquifers that bring water down from northern wet areas.   

I spent many years in Midwest & been thru the southwest.   Kansas, Nebraska up into Idaho and the Dakotas grow really well just about any grain crop.   Same coming back east and up into the north, (TN, Virginia etc in mid east coast are good ground but not real good for farming.)   Once ya get into the Carolinas & farther south farming starts coming back heading into the south east.   

Get down south & south west well the sand will soak up so much water it might be impossible to get enough to make it really grown much, some Cotton and other dry crops maybe.   I forget now how much water they use to water veggies in the So. California but it is a lot.   

I love watching the Yukon Men show on Discovery, it is a BIG and FAST moving river for sure.   they also have lots of regulations on rivers and tributaries due to the salmon fishing and all those natural issues. 

Pumping water is difficult, but I suppose you could use a funnel type to ram water up for a while but would not go that far.

Mark 
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2013, 11:13:16 PM »
I was thinking a bucket brigade as a show of solidarity. ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Offline Kansas

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2013, 09:35:34 AM »
For the record... I don't think there is any spring wheat grown in Kansas. Back in my grain elevator days, I saw one guy attempt it, and it was a total disaster. Its all winter wheat. Northern Nebraska, I don't know about. Not sure where the line is where they switch from winter to spring wheat.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2013, 07:13:11 PM »
I might have been mistaken about what kind of wheat .That I refered to was a trip in 1965 between my junior and senior year of high school .They where harvesting wheat in late August which I assumed to be hard wheat .The wheat around here which is winter wheat comes off around first of July.

That trip was via I 80 outbound and I 70 inbound .

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2013, 07:49:20 PM »
There are several types of wheat: hard wheats, used mostly for breads, soft wheats, used for general baking and pastries, and durum wheat, used to produce pastas. There are some others, but they are not generally grown in the US.

The hard and soft wheats come in both winter and spring forms, the only difference being the time of planting. Winter wheats are planted in the fall and spring wheats in the spring. Winter wheats are generally higher yielding, but subject to frost heaving and winter kill in severe climates. As you move north in the wheat growing areas, you find more spring wheats.

Ohio and Kansas both are in the primary winter wheat area, but if memory serves, Ohio has mostly soft red winter wheat, and Kansas has more hard winter wheat.

Hope that is of some help. Wheat is cool. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2013, 08:54:56 PM »
Well there I learned something as I was always under the impression that hard wheat was spring wheat .

Not to get off on too much of a tangent of discussing water but what then would be harvested in late August as far as  wheat ?

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2013, 09:57:10 PM »
I looked up Kansas, Nebraska on the production maps. looks like all hard red winter wheat area. It may be the hard wheats get ripe later in the season. Wheat in Ohio is usually June as I remember.
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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2013, 10:36:29 AM »
Around my area (basically central Nebraska) a lot of guys have planted winter wheat and then followed it up with soybeans.  They most generally are harvesting the wheat around the end of June to first part of July, pretty risky sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2013, 11:19:42 AM »
My dad used to do that in Missouri. Seemed like about half the time it did ok. Maybe once in 5 or 6 years the rains would come just right and he would get almost as much as with the early beans. Double crop is good. ;D
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Re: Eastern Colorado
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2013, 03:41:53 PM »
Back in the grain elevator days, the question for us would be, would wheat harvest be wrapped up by the 4th of July so we would have it off? Some years yes, some no. Now there is very little wheat grown in NE Kansas. Back in the day, the old timers around the local farmers Co-op said farmers came to town twice a year to pay their bill. Once at wheat harvest, once at fall harvest. I guess a lot of the farmers used the Co-op as a kind of bank. They would just deposit their grain checks at the Co-op, take what they needed for supplies, and leave what was left, over and beyond their bill.

Had to go to school to learn how to distinguish the difference between hard and soft winter wheat. They had this grand idea to keep them apart in the grain bins. I never could really tell the difference. I can tell you now, it all got put into the same bins. A load of hard wheat going out? You pulled a lever. You wanted soft wheat? Pull the same lever.


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