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Author Topic: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.  (Read 7101 times)

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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2013, 11:12:56 PM »
I know the area you're in up there in Tioga county.  I worked up there for awhile, and I fully understand what you're up against.  I couldn't sell that type of forestry down in my area.  I gave a management plan and appraisal to a doctor one time and his wife wanted to know how to get the money.  I told her to cut all her trees. 

I've also had loggers come in within weeks after we had jobs finished.  They took all the leave trees and paid a lot less than they were worth.  It's what helped to drive me back to the mill. 

I heard one large forestry consulting company owner say that landowners deserve the kind of management they get.  I'm not in that camp. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2013, 11:43:23 PM »
It is a hard deal. Some landowners won't cut a single tree. Then they die or sell out and the next owner cashes out to help pay for the land without any consideration for the next crop.

The farmers feel like the loggers will cheat them, and unfortunately, there are loggers out there who are dishonest, giving everybody a bad name.

For most farmers, woods land is a place to hunt and occasionally a paycheck. There aren't that many who consider their trees a crop. They just grow. We can all do better.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline banksiana

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 10:19:06 AM »
I have had the actual logger contracted to do the work talk to the landowner and buy the crop trees as he is cutting the sale.  It can be frustrating working with private landowners.  The absolute worse situation is when a piece of property has several different landowners.  Other hard to work with landowners are preachers/pastors, school teachers and lawyers.  I have learned to avoid these types, or back out of a job if I get the least hint or suspicion  that there could be trouble ahead.  I'm sure others here know the type.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2013, 10:45:42 AM »
My theory on that is some professions give advice all day long.  Rarely will they take it.  Bankers and doctors also fill that niche.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2013, 11:14:53 AM »
It's not only professions. Sometimes a fellow is set in his ways, and that's all it takes when it's his land and his trees.

Sometimes we forget whose really the boss to. And people also change their minds. Should try running a silviculture program on private land, when today people have spoken for 500,000 trees and by spring that's down to 350,000. Long after the trees where ordered up at the nursery who want to be paid for them other 150,000 trees to. ;)
Move'n on.

Offline WDH

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2013, 05:00:30 PM »
There are some really poor customers out there. 
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Offline OneWithWood

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 12:38:46 PM »
It really makes it hard when good stewards have to fight county government to practice good forestry because of all the owners who only look at the money and the loggers who want to maximize every harvest without paying a market price.
Sometimes I wonder why I am doing what I am doing when it would be so easy just to say the h*** with it and cash out... :-\
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Offline ancjr

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 01:46:24 PM »
Reminds me of the economic theory espoused by mathematician-turned-amateur-economist John Maynard Keynes: "In the long run, we're all dead"   ::)


Offline Andy B.

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2013, 10:52:46 PM »
I realize this thread is a few months old, but this is EXACTLY the type of information I'm looking for.  My wife and I only have about 14 forested acres, but I would like to find out how best to manage it.  Is there anyone you guys could recommend in the Easton, PA area who does this type of forester work?  I am fascinated by the whole ecology of the forest, but I wouldn't even know how to go about trying to figure this out myself.

Andy B.

Offline Claybraker

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2013, 10:32:13 AM »
A couple of thoughts from a fellow landowner. I'd start with the service forester. Nothing wrong with private consultants, but it doesn't hurt to have someone who doesn't have a financial interest in your decisions, at least at first. Plus, it's usually free.

Also, a really good exercise to help you organize *your* objectives is to fill out an application for a Forestry Stewardship Plan.

Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2013, 11:23:18 AM »
Read The Practice of Silviculture by David M Smith 1986. There may be a new addition by now. There is a lot of information packed inside and I have found it to be quite helpful, both to understand the terminology and at least an inkling of how the forest ecosystem works. If you get a feeling for how the system works, you can tweak it to produce more and better of what you want from it and help to keep it all healthy. ;D Good luck.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline petefrom bearswamp

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2013, 04:58:20 PM »
In my 25 plus yrs consulting, I found that when the client, after being given a good program to follow regarding timber harvesting said it isn't that I want the most money, it WAS that they wanted just that sound silviculture be damned.
This type was fortunately in the minority.
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Offline chain

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2013, 06:07:34 PM »
I think every forest stands in its past management. Some have been clear-cut, some have suffered severe forest fires and disease, some have been grazed, some have been left for old growth, and some are managed as modern forestry as the locale dictates. And it's not easy being a forest manager, not when the forest seems to 'change' its purpose, after all it is a living entity.

For instance, in our oak-pine Ozark forest the red oaks are dying, short-leafed pine is beginning to evolve once again as the major species, as our pioneers traveling westward nearly two hundred years ago wrote of the 'park-like' beauty of such pure stands of pine. I've stated before, we have been fortunate to have three species..red oaks, white oaks, SL pine where as the ROs will soon become a fond memory, the WOs are next, pockets of those are beginning to die also. Mother nature dictates, she will have the final say in forest management.

Offline Andy B.

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2013, 08:07:11 PM »
Read The Practice of Silviculture by David M Smith 1986. There may be a new addition by now. There is a lot of information packed inside and I have found it to be quite helpful, both to understand the terminology and at least an inkling of how the forest ecosystem works. If you get a feeling for how the system works, you can tweak it to produce more and better of what you want from it and help to keep it all healthy. ;D Good luck.

Mesquite,
There was a 9th edition published in 1996.  Needless to say, I can find the 8th edition for a few dollars used, the 9th edition is closer to $50.  Do you think much would have changed in 10 years to warrant the newer edition?

Thanks for the other suggestions as well.  I am going to call the local Penn State Extension tomorrow.

Andy B.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2013, 10:09:48 PM »
I wonder if your local library could get the recent copy from the state library? Could buy the one for a few dollars no matter what.
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Offline Andy B.

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2013, 10:22:50 PM »
Don't even get me going on my "local" library.  I'd pay the $50 just to avoid setting foot in the place.  Heck, I'd rather spend the $50 on gas and drive out to State College and get a copy from Pattee. ;D

Andy B.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2013, 10:26:30 PM »
That is sad to hear about what you don't want to get going about.  :(   Others probably feel the same way.
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Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2013, 10:41:53 PM »
I'd be surprised if very much has changed. The book is a college level textbook for a beginning silviculture class. The publishers like to make new editions to force the students to buy new. They add or subtract a page here and there so when the professor assigns reading, you get the wrong pages in the older edition. Most of the information is timeless, so for you, who cares? Nobody will be assigning reading except you. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2013, 07:35:50 AM »
Andy, I'm a little over an hour from you.  Sounds like you have ties to PSU.  I don't do a ton of woods work anymore, but may be able to give a peek after leaf drop.

I have the 7th edition of that book with the date of 1962.  It cost nearly $13 in 1970.  The things that have changed are probably the pictures (mine are black & white) and the dollar value when they are using cost projections.  The concepts are probably the same.  But, a lot of those concepts won't pertain to your 14 acres of woodland.  You could borrow it, and it wouldn't be as far to drive as State College.

Most woodlands go through a series of landowners within a rotation, at least here in the northeast.  During that time, the management objectives change with each landowner.  All you need is one that wanted to optimize his current income by doing a high grade operation.  It makes no difference whether the previous management was good or bad.  You have to work with what you have on the ground and go forward from there.

I've found that landowners generally don't do much actual management work.  They won't spend the necessary money to get a good inventory and appraisal which would be necessary to develop a good management plan.  Most times the "plan" is a walk through with someone knowledgeable in trees and markets.  If a plan is developed, physical implementation is lessened if it has no immediate commercial value, or involves the landowner to input either money or time.  Folks like One with Wood are hard to find, especially for their dedication. 

Service foresters don't do much work in the field.  They often shove things off on the consultants and mill foresters.  This has been our state policy for 35 years.  They used to give service to large and small landowners, but no longer.  Its important to have your forester on the same page as you, and to get several opinions.  Some know the right things to say, but practice what they want as the landowner has no way of knowing what the quality of work is.

Another option is the Tree Farm system.  At least you get someone to look at the property every 5-10 years and give you an idea of what needs to be done.  http://patreefarm.org/  Note:  some of these inspectors are mill foresters looking for timber.  Not necessarily a bad thing.
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Offline mesquite buckeye

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Re: Cutting the little trees out from under the big trees.
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2013, 08:21:43 AM »
Pictures are still black and white in the eighth edition. If you are serious about taking care of your land, you can make a big impact in 5 years if you are not afraid to work on it.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.


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