Tree cutting

[rasorbackQ]

 What should I be doing with the stump  cut? I normally make a notch then the back cut  Tree may fall but most times it gets hung up and doesn't fall. Then I have to wait for a high wind to get them on the ground.

Anyways the trees that do fall  what do you do with the stump ? cut it off flat ? Leave it?
and why?

[clww]

Depends on where it's at. If you're making a road, or clearing land for a pasture, I'd cut it as low as possible. If clearance is not an issue, I'll usually leave them around 6" high. If there are really large buttress roots (flare) on the bottom, I may leave it higher. I've never left one more than two feet high in the woods.
If you're having lots of hang-ups, keep practicing.

[thecfarm]

I find it's much easier to cut the stump at whatever height I want when I cut the tree. We have always logged with a farm tractor. Tractors do not like high stumps. If high winds will bring the trees down,you can't be too far off. I've had to leave a few like that. But I don't like too,even though it's my land. Most times,the more I cut,the more an area will open up and the easier it gets to fall them.

[thenorthman]

For getting hung, do you mean just not falling, say sitting back on the saw, or getting stuck in some other tree on its way down?

There are many solutions to both.  For sit backs that is why they sell them plastic wedges...

For trees that are hung part way down each one is a little different and I am loath to give advice that isn't specific to any one situation, cause the wrong method could easily get someone one killed or maimed.

As far as stump height that all depends on what your doing, if its just firewooding on your own land cut em waist high for all I care and come back later and wack em off at the ground, if your logging for grade cut as low as root flare or dirt will allow.

[thecfarm]

I was thinking,hung,meant started to fall and got hung up in another tree limbs. Tree is at a very sharp angle too.

[rasorbackQ]

 Trees are not falling . They start to fall and then get hung up on the others .  This would be great if I was clearing an area but I am trying to pick out certain trees for milling  for upcoming projects .
Sometimes the tree will pinch the bar. More times then I like .  That just means a lot extra work. in an already tiring job.
Woods are just so thick . Sometimes I think they will fall but no........ another one hung up.
I must have 30 good size trees hung up . Been looking for a winch for the tractor  but the winch fairy has yet to bless me.  My Honda Foreman and winch has been help but sometimes its just out gunned.

[bill m]

Without being there to see your situation it is very difficult to give sound, safe recommendations on how to improve what you are doing. Maybe ask around at local saw shops for someone who is willing to spend 1/2 a day walking your woods with you. Show him the trees you wish to cut and your methods and let him critique your cutting. He can show you what to look for in terms of lean, direction for felling, notch and back cut technique and other tricks that will make the job much easier.

[dboyt]

I second the idea of working with a pro.  Plastic wedges & short single-bit ax for sure, every time I go out in the woods.  Even if you just think a tree might sit back on the saw, drive a wedge in the back cut.  After you finish the hinge, a few taps on the wedge is usually all it takes to persuade the tree to go.  It it still doesn't go, you can double up your wedges, or wedge closer to the hinge.  Most chain saws have a line on the case that you can sight down to help line up the direction of the fall.  Always look up to check for potential hang-ups (and dead branches that could come down on you) and plan your exit before you start your cut.  I had the same problem until I took a training course.  A lot of forum members ridicule the "Game of Logging" training, but I highly recommend it.  I do selective cutting and thinning in the Missouri Ozarks (oak-hickory forest), and it has made a huge difference in my ability to safely put trees exactly where I want them.  Working with a professional is a good idea (I always figured that anyone that wanted to be a logger needs professional help).  A chain saw powered Lewis winch is the best tool I have ever used to free hang-ups, since it is highly portable.  It is also handy for extracting logs out of tight places.

[beenthere]

With 30 good sized trees "hung up", then you should get some help to get them down.
A portable winch may be the ticket, and the portable capstan winch may be as good or better to be of help. Your woods is becoming a danger to you and possibly others, if there are that many trees hung up.

I second the "game of Logging" to give you some needed technique, as what is happening isn't good. Not that most of us don't get a tree hung up once in awhile when trying to pick out certain ones in a stand, but leaving even one hung up isn't the safest, let alone 30 some.

But as Bill M suggests, without being there it is difficult to say anything specific. But please, don't leave them hanging.

[thenorthman]

This it to be used at your own risk.

depending on how far over its leaning when it gets hung up there are a few options.

the first and probably the safest is to dump another tree into it hopefully dislodging it from where its hung, this does not always work and when it doesn't it can create quite the mess.

second is to hook a long cable with a choker as low on the cut stem as you can and but a heavy roll into it so when you pull with your tractor it will roll out of the tree is hung up in, be sure to stay out from under it and pull from the not lean side.  This method works good if you have the traction, and long enough cable to be out of harms way if the tree pulls over backwards, which can and will happen.  Be careful when the butt gets stuck on something the idea of the roll is to make it twist and spin so it should dislodge but if it gets hung up on the but it can tip over on you... not good...

third option, and increasing in stupidity, is to cut small chuncks off the butt end, say 3-4', causing it to jerk and maybe dislodging from said hand up, this does not always work and usually takes 3-4 try's when it does, the dangerous side to this is the tree can swing around and fall on you especially when you take enough  of the end to allow the butt to clear the ground.

The forth option would be to watch the first season of hacks men... they get one hung up and do some really dumb stuff to get it down... granted it works... but one wrong move and they will be filling garbage bags with your brains...

Like I said use at your own risk, all these methods are inherently dangerous, some more than others, I've used them all when the situation called for it, every time the adrenalin starts pumping though.   Just be careful watch the top when ever your working around a hang up, they can and will go at anytime.

[CCC4]

PLEASE don't try and dislodge those trees with a 4-wheeler....It doesn't even matter what size timber you are in...just envision a wooden arrow! I have seen trees try and shove the grapple up underneath the skidders...grapples weigh about 3 times what yer 4 wheeler will weigh. I Have also been standing there waiting on the skidder OP to pull a lodged tree down for me and as soon as pressure is lifted off the ground the trees would dart all over the place.

Got any pics of your timber job? If we could see what yer trying to fall through, maybe more help could be offered to ya. Also what kind of timber, how tall, and how tight is the tract? What you are falling through to hit the ground makes all the difference in the world. I was cutting this set of hardwood into a mass of junk super brush, low canopy stuff. I hung up the first 8 in a row... I mean one right after another! It was just because the trees weren't gaining enough momentum off the stump, and didn't have enough top weight to punch through the brush. It was ridiculous!

[Ianab]

I can understand working with limited equipment, but for safety sake you need a better plan.

A nice LONG cable and hand winch should do the job.  Any tree that you aren't sure about, set a cable as high up as you can (ladder, throw ball, slingshot etc) That's all you need to do, get the cable up in the tree, and put the other end a safe distance away.

Now you cut the tree, use wedges etc. If it falls, great, unhook the cable and move ot the next one. If it's stuck then your move to the safe zone at the end of the cable, rig the winch to a stump, and haul it over. Yes it might take another 10 mins, but you aren't leaving a death trap hanging above your work area.

But by rigging that cable first, you have a SAFE plan B in place before you start cutting.

Ian

[WH_Conley]

If you have 30 hung up, STOP. At least til you can get a professional, not someone that has read a book on it, look at the stand and your procedures. Talk to the local saw shop, they can point you to someone.

[Jamie_C]

I would be asking at either the local saw shop or at Turner's sawmill if there are any local guys still with manual crews in the woods around you. Maybe even give Freeman's a call, they should know of somebody. If there is then see if you can get some lessons from one of them, at the rate you are going you will end up as a statistic pretty soon.

I would say you need some help in "reading" how a tree wants to fall and also help in directional felling, falling trees is not an activity to be taken lightly. Please get some help so you can be sure to make it home safely every time you venture into the woods.

[rasorbackQ]

 When the rain lets up I will get some pics

[CCC4]

Send the rain due South if ya don't mind... 101* today...

[barbender]

I once got a birch with a big y in it hung right in the crotch of another birch crotch, I couldn't even pull it down with the skid steer. I finally shot it off with some 12 gauge duck loads ;D It is really tough to selective cut on some sites without some equipment to help get stuff on the ground. You have to stop and fix the situation if you have 30 hung up though, it must be pretty dangerous to walk around your woods I would try to find someone with a cable skidder that you could hire for a day, get all that wood on the ground and get a few decent skid trails in. After you get it opened up a bit you would be more effective with the farm tractor.

[clww]

I've got a 24" DBH hemlock hung up in another hemlock down the hill from the cabin. : I figured the rain or snow or wind or the rotation of the earth would have dislodged it before now. It's still hanging tough since last October when it happened. It's no danger of falling onto anything important or any person, so I may just leave it to see how long it may take before it finally comes down..

[CCC4]

And then there are those that just sit there waiting for you to forget that they are there... then all of  a sudden, hopefully you hear it, the tree starts crashing down to the ground.

[rasorbackQ]

 I do realize the possibility of the danger in a hung up tree.  30 trees hung up is not that bad  as they are no trees near the next hung up one.   My land has 100s of hung up blow half overs by nature. If I had a tractor with winch some could be retrieved  with the 165' of cable . As of now we log with atv and log arch. Like others on here might take a hurricane to free the leaners. I don't know how a professional sawyer can drop a tree if the woods are just to thick other then planning a fall by cutting other trees before.

[thecfarm]

I am no expect,but have cut many trees. Many more on here have cut down many more than me. The tree HAS to be read. I walk around every tree and look at the others around it. I have hung up a few. But the winch will bring them down. There was only one tree I had to do a very unsafe act to get it down in all the years that I have cut down trees. Wedges are a big help too. There is ALOT to bringing a tree down to the ground. You really need someone to train you how to read a tree. I cut in some areas that there are trees every 20-40 feet.
And if I am off by a few feet,I can get into a mess real fast.

[mesquite buckeye]

Look before you attempt to drop a tree. It needs a clear path to fall into. You may have to fell some small trees in the fall path to allow your trees to drop. The more you can plan ahead, noting the lean, the hazards and the surrounding trees, the less problems you will run into.

I used to hang trees all the time when I started. Now, hardly ever. I do have a 3 ton come along to help persuade a tree that is hesitant to comply with my wishes.

[CCC4]

rasorbackQ- Anybody that says they haven't hung up a tree is lying...it happens. Have you been able to take a few pics? In order to get fairly sound advice from an internutz forum, people need to see exactly what the situation is. The possibilities are limitless, I am imagining everything from horrid brush to not well placed shots.

There "should" always be a plan of how your lay is going to happen. Is there any option of taking out some lesser value timber so your lay works out better? There has to be a reason for 30 trees to get hung up...that is what is raising red flags or concern for your safety. The problem just needs to be addressed and then action taken so you get your job completed safely.

pics....  ;D

[jwilly3879]

Is your notch closing as the tree hits the one it gets hung up in? If it is you might want to open up the face. This used to happen to me.

[barbender]

RasorbackQ, some stands they aren't going to hit the ground no matter how good you are.

[CCC4]

+1 barbender! ...unless yer cutting with one of those dealys in yer profile pic!  :D

[Ryan D]

RasorbackQ, I'm not working down your way at the moment but I would happily come out and give you a few pointers next time I am in the area.

[thenorthman]

I do realize the possibility of the danger in a hung up tree.  30 trees hung up is not that bad  as they are no trees near the next hung up one.   My land has 100s of hung up blow half overs by nature. If I had a tractor with winch some could be retrieved  with the 165' of cable . As of now we log with atv and log arch. Like others on here might take a hurricane to free the leaners. I don't know how a professional sawyer can drop a tree if the woods are just to thick other then planning a fall by cutting other trees before.

Well the real pros dump a whole bunch of trees everyday. sometimes 100's in a day.  Toss that many on a daily basis you get to learn allot in just one day.

I'm not that cool...

The biggest trick to getting them on the ground is to learn to directionally fall em.  That involves reading the tree both head lean, side lean, and limb weight. Then placing your under cuts and back cuts properly, there are many tricks for steering trees...

Also planning out your lay, that is planning which trees to cut where they are going to go and in what order, not just saying well gosh I guess I will take that one there.

Many times to fall tree A trees B C and D have to go first.  Yes that means taking more trees then you would like at times, but it also means coming home safe.

[rasorbackQ]

RasorbackQ, I'm not working down your way at the moment but I would happily come out and give you a few pointers next time I am in the area.

Will take you up on that one Ryan.

[rasorbackQ]

Still no pics as its still pouring outside.

[enigmaT120]

How big are the trees you're cutting?  In my pre-commercial thinning that I've been doing I have a lot of trees hang up.  I use my Logrite Jr. Arch most of the time, to pick up the tree and drag the but the opposite direction I want the tree to fall.  My trees are too small to use wedges. 

[rasorbackQ]

Trees are 30- 60 ' tall with 12-16 butts. Poplar and spruce were the latest hang ups. I might be able to get to the butts with an atv with some work. Still raining here  Hope to get out for some pics this week .

[mesquite buckeye]

Lots of times those pole stands are fairly interlocked until you get them opened up. If you pull them make sure your chain or cable is a lot longer than the tree is tall. I've got a dent in my head from doing otherwise.

[John Mc]

I was with a group of 8 or so people who spent a full day with a Game of Logging instructor intentionally hanging up trees, and then figuring out how to get them down without any special equipment other than our chainsaws, wedges, and the occasional pole we cut for one use or another.  We did have one advantage that none of the trees we were cutting had much in the way of timber value.  They were all destined to become firewood eventually, so we had more options in how and where to cut them than we would have if we were trying to preserve a good saw log.

The day was a lot of fun, and quite an education.

[Wash. Tinner]

Nobody has suggested a "Humbolt" face cut. Basically it a upside down normal face cut and allows the tree to have more distance to fall before pivoting off the stump. This might give the tree the momentum it needs to get to the ground. We use this all the time in  the thick PNW forests and you don't waste that wood of the normal face cut in trim.

[John Mc]

As dense as the forest in his description was, I'm guessing the trees are hanging up before the notches are closing all the way...

[Ianab]

That's what I was thinking. Smaller trees, densely growing, and interlocking branches. With larger trees you can try and build up some momentum so they can "Crash" though nearby branches etc. But smaller trees, they don't have that weight or the space to build up momentum.

Hence the advice to set a rope and practice your directional felling. With that rope set (and even just a hand winch) you can persuade the tree to fall in the best direction, even if that's against it's natural lean, and you have the rope up in the top of the tree so you can change angles to give it some more persuasion if it does get stuck. Because you set the rope BEFORE you cut the tree it's all relatively safe, you shouldn't have to get into the danger area under a hung tree.

You don't need to rope every tree, just any one that you aren't sure of.

Ian

[clww]

Very good points, Ian. I've recently finished clearing out the trees for the power lines to run up to our cabin. I've got to say the larger the tree, the easier it was to get onto the ground. Speed and momentum are absolutely necessary when dropping trees that will be making contact with other trees on their way down.

[ancjr]

Seen my fair share of 30ft poles spaced 3ft apart.  The good thing about those springy poles that get hung up, I've not even used a winch / come-a-long.  You can use a really long rope - long enough that the tree or branches have no possible way to fall on you, longer than the tree is tall - and then repeatedly pull on the rope at the "natural frequency" of the pole.  You can work magic - like bouncing them right out of being stuck tight in crotches of other trees - using this technique and some practice.

[rasorbackQ]

 Was out to get some pics yesterday but they don't show anything that can be viewed or recognized .  Good to see that  few others are on my side ref the trees  are very difficult to fall in thick stands.
Was talking with my neighbor and he says I am lucky to have only 30 trees hung up and not 100. Trees were not meant to fall in the forest. I will look into the Humbolt face cut and I have purchased a few plastic wedges . Now to see if I carry them in with me  is another story.

[beenthere]

We are mainly concerned about your safety, and not "taking sides" ;)

Having a tree hung up is very understandable, but leaving a tree hung up is less understandable from a safety point of view (that being your safety and others who may be about).

So it is up to you and your comfort zone.

But if me, I'd figure out a way to cut the tree and get it down, rather than all the work to cut a tree and leave it standing or leaning -- as it is a bit of work for no gain.

For me, if the tree is free from the stump (leaning but the hinge is cut through), then (if I don't have a rope or cable up in the tree to pull) I will hook the tractor to the butt and pull it away from the stump until the tree drops. A few of the 10-15" dbh ash that I cut will be so tall and will only drop about 10 - 15 deg, so get the butt-pull treatment.



  
Hung ash tree


  
Chain wrap for pull


 
Down on the ground

[thenorthman]

Was out to get some pics yesterday but they don't show anything that can be viewed or recognized .  Good to see that  few others are on my side ref the trees  are very difficult to fall in thick stands.
Was talking with my neighbor and he says I am lucky to have only 30 trees hung up and not 100. Trees were not meant to fall in the forest. I will look into the Humbolt face cut and I have purchased a few plastic wedges . Now to see if I carry them in with me  is another story.

You should never try to fall any tree without at least 2 wedges on hand, preferably in your back pockets, and get your self some kind of beating tool, 3-5 pound axe, or some guys use a sledge hammer (which I find weird).  More wedges means you can get one or two started and then stack two or three and really push a tree away from its natural lean.  One wedge can push a 100' tree 6-8' or more at the top, two stacked up will go farther.  Just remember to make level back cuts, slopping back cuts are a very bad thing.  The trick to a wedge is to get them to "lift" the tree using hold/hinge wood as a fulcrum.  Stuff your wedge in as soon as you have an inch or two the stick it in the back cut, this will prevent the tree from sitting back and therefore making it a real nightmare to get a wedge in at all...

Some folks will say they have never needed a wedge... I don't know how they get away with it... they also come in real handy when bucking up a heavily loaded log...

As far a Humboldt cut goes, just make your sloping side of the notch (commonly referred to as the "face") on the bottom side the level side being on the top. and then your back cut being level or just a bit higher then the level cut on the face.  The benefit of using the humboldt in a thinning situation is that the the undercut being on the stump acts as a wheel chock preventing the tree from slipping back and coming after the faller (you).  Also a benefit on steep ground when falling timber up hill.

A couple of books you should find,
The Back Yard Lumber Jack. a story publication

D Douglas Dent. Professional Timber Falling.

As far a the GOL classes, I'm not a fan... but for the average home owner they could be an eye opening experience.

[thenorthman]

here is a little spruce stump with a humboldt in it... 40" Dia... the picture has a wierd skew to it...

 

[plaindriver]

First off, I am somewhat of a neophyte at this. This is what I do on my property.
We (just wife & I) have downed over a hundred trees since last Sept. Most have atleast 15" thick trunks, say 3' above grade. Many 100' tall anyways. Mostly white, red, or scarlet oak, and a few maples as well.

With a 24' ext ladder maxed out, I climb up and with a 10' PVC pipe, with a notch in the top, I reach as high as I can to push the cable lasso up, then have the wife tug on the cable to tighten it up. Cable is a  1/4" steel, about 1500# rating, with plastic cover. Usually get the cable around 33' hi.


 


 


 


  

 

Then I stretch the cable and take up the slack.


 
Next, I cut the wedge out of the front of tree, then stretch the cable till the tree bows a bit. (Note: the cable is longer than the tree is high)


 

Then make the back cut and down it goes.


 

Then, with my helper, we cut up the good stuff,  and burn & or chip the rest.

 

[John Mc]

... I have purchased a few plastic wedges . Now to see if I carry them in with me  is another story.

you can get a holster to carry your wedges in.  Mine rides on a webbing belt along with a small first aid pack, and a "Top Saw" chainsaw multitool. Search Bailey's (a forum sponsor) for wedge pouch, and you'll find a couple of options.  I got the leather one, since it can carry a 12" wedge.  The nylon pouches are also nice, but don't work so well for wedges over 10" long.

[Ianab]

Next, I cut the wedge out of the front of tree, then stretch the cable till the tree bows a bit. (Note: the cable is longer than the tree is high)

Good illustration of what to do. If you don't have a tractor, then a portable winch anchored to a stump works too.

Only suggestion I have is that you don't pre-load the rope. This puts tension on the tree, and makes it possible to barber chair the thing. A small load isn't an issue, but if you tension it too much it can split the log before you complete the back cut.

I have used pretty much the same method, but I only take out the slack in the rope. Once the back cut is complete then I shut off the saw, get clear and signal my helper to pull. Or walk around a safe path to the winch or tractor and haul it down myself.

Not a big change in technique, but you have more control.

If you only suspect the tree will hang or sit back then there may be no need to position the tractor / winch. Just lay the cable out to a safe distance. Just make sure it's safe to get to the winching location and hook it up if the tree does hang up.

This will save you a few minutes per tree if only 1 in 10 actually need winching.

Plastic felling wedges are a great tool. Learn to use them. usually they are enough to fully control the direction of a tree's fall. But if you have a serious back lean or intertwined branches they may not be enough. Often we will set a cable, but use wedges anyway (quicker). If the wedges don't get it moving, then plan B is already in place.

Ian

[CCC4]

Humbolt face... high stump in 1st vid due to fence...Zero fiber should have been pulled in 2nd vid, however I detected a void and fiber was pulled in the void, log was butted off 4ft+ due to rot anyway so no big deal, normally I pull zero fiber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K77sVxUBnIY&list=UU_NjqCPS3PCA_PGz4NCZuLA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn7e7FAX5NU&list=UU_NjqCPS3PCA_PGz4NCZuLA

[WDH]

Sweetgum  :-\.

[CCC4]

Sweetgum  :-\.

Vid #1 tupelo      Vid #2 sweet gum. Same deep hollar.

[thenorthman]

this is all good stuff, especially the bit about not putting much tension before you cut...

Climbing trees with ladders is always a bit spooky to me, just be real sure about it s stability, personally I prefer a belt and spurs.  at least then you won't tip over sideways, just do a back flip and have to wait for the fire department to cut you out :D

They also make a rope puller thing that works like a comelong... can't remember the name... what you can do there is tie your rope up in the tree, run it through a snatch block in the appropriate direction. then hook up the come-a-long to the stump of the tree your working on.  Make your cuts and then just lean over and start cranking on the handle when she start to go RUN LIKE THE WIND... that way you can work more less alone, or at least not put anyone else on danger, and you won't have to leave a crippled tree and go climp in a tractor or wrestle with a motor...

[rasorbackQ]

You guys make me laugh Those pics the trees are 15' apart at the butt.

Here are some pics of my forest




  

  

  

 

[rasorbackQ]

 I normally do just like the pics hang ups get tied up and pulled down with the atv  Great for a 8-12" tree But when the tree weight is more then the atv winch can pull  is where I am now. Once the woods dry up I will get the tractor and a long rope to get them down

[Ianab]

A real ratchet puller can provide more pull than even a tractor. An extra length of cable, some strops and a couple of snatch blocks and you will be able to rig yourself out of most fixes.

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=17435&catID=

[thenorthman]

Yep a portable winch or come-a-long tied low on a stump or tree has lots of grunt to spare, barring that you could use a snatch block to double your pulling power with the atv, rig the snatch block to the hung tree, tie one end of to something just off your line of pull, tie the other end off to the atv... get 2-1 gearing that way... just have to have a longer rope.

[rasorbackQ]

Remember reading it here somewhere........................ The back cut should be level ??? My back cut comes in at an angle .
Goes out tomorrow to get those last couple hang ups down and milled.

[beenthere]

My back cut comes in at an angle .

A reason why not flat? 

My guess would be because you are new at it, and are not using wedges in the back cut to control the tree.

Often see an angled backcut with newbies cutting down trees. No offense meant by that. I think some feel it helps to direct the fall of the tree, and others do it because they don't have to bend down to make the cut.

If the tree is for firewood, not a great loss. But if for sawing lumber, just means shorter boards out of that butt log on the mill. One reason that the humbolt cut is used for the notch, to not lose length in boards.

[CCC4]

My back cut comes in at an angle .

A reason why not flat? 

My guess would be because you are new at it, and are not using wedges in the back cut to control the tree.
Often see an angled backcut with newbies cutting down trees.

[/quote]

It just takes practice and familiarity with yer saw, such as knowing how to hold yer saw level. It has zero to do with whether or not you choose to use wedges or not. I have seen some ultra crap stumps and wedges were used...it is like it is "OK" to leave a crappy stump as long as you wedged the tree over...  My favorite stump to come across is when they slope the back cut and the face! Now that is stellar! Sometimes you wonder how people live through it! But hey...throw a wedge in it and it is all good!  :

[beenthere]

CCC4

That was a "misinterp" of what I was trying to point out, but I'll let it ride for what it is worth.
I don't view wedges as covering up for any marginal cuts.

;)

[CCC4]

I would like to offer an apology for my snippy reply. I put in a rough one today in this heat... sorry about that Sir

[WDH]

"To wedge or not to wedge?   That is the question."  (From a Shakespearean Woodcutter Play.) 

"To wedge is to show wisdom."  (Old Chinese Proverb.)

[Rocky_Ranger]

Back when I worked for a living I cut right of way trees for log roads.  Back then we built quite nice roads with crushed rock; for those that know what "Purchaser Credit" was, it was back then.  I didn't know what a wedge was until I went to Oregon and worked USFS.  I hung up trees all day - cutting ROW in dense timber that just wouldn't, or couldn't hit the ground.  Learned a bunch felling timber - always had a trusty Cat 518 (cut in the morning and skid in the afternoon) to help with those pesky hang ups.  Nothing like a good set of chokers and a mainline winch.......... 

[Wash. Tinner]

Wedges are cheap insurance for a number of reasons, 1- Tree wont set back on the saw and 2- If you have a hard time reading the tree or want it to go against the way that it naturally wants to go, you can persuade it to go where you want it to go and 3- THEY ARE CHEAP!!!

[Ianab]

All three points are true, and they will help you out of a lot of tight spots. Don't leave home without them.

But sometimes they aren't enough, then heavy machinery, or at least winches and cables are needed. Tight growing trees with interlocking branches are a pain in the butt.  Sometimes it's like a Chinese puzzle working out what order to take things down in. A Chinese puzzle with two ton pieces over your head  :-\

Ian

[Peter Drouin]

I think using a rope on a tractor to pull down a tree will get yourself hurt when the rope breaks.I think you should hire a guy that has a skidder and be done with it and live to tell about it. Just my 2 cents good luck with your trees

[Rocky_Ranger]

The point I was trying to make is you can't put a set of wedges in your back pocket and expect to become a faller.  It takes practice without wedges and with wedges; some trees can and will come back on you if you use the wedges improperly.  I prefer to not use them unless the situation says I should (as should always be the case); sometimes a full winch line and large vehicle is what is called for.  However, as old as I am and some of the practices I have used makes it a miracle I'm still in one piece......  I haven't knocked out power, nor tripped a primary yet - but there is still time  :D

[rasorbackQ]

 Well I can say now 27 tree hung up . Managed to get out and rescue/ recover 3 yesterday. Was a tough morning . Got with in 100 ft of the trees with the tractor. Had to pull 2 of them 30 ' before they were on the ground. and last one was 50' towards the pick up spot before it was on the ground.
Angled back cut ...... thought I seen pics on the web one time but didn't find any ref to it now.

[thenorthman]

Not to be hypercritical, Sloping back cuts are sloppy and dangerous, mostly dangerous, especially when using a wedge.

Most people that use them falsely believe that it will stop a barber chair (vertical and violent split), they don't.  Or they think that the wedge is supposed to push the tree over, causing the stump wood to split and the tree to fall over backwards, usually on the cutter.

If your going to start using wedges make you back cut level or as level as your ability allows... the idea behind a wedge is to "lift" the tree off the stump, using hold/hinge wood as a fulcrum.  With the back cut level the wedge is placed perpendicular to the grain being the strongest compression strength.

Now on to the back patting, ya got three down. good job... now get to work!

once you have a system things will go faster the more times you do it.

Also sometimes when you pull them down like that they can get really hung up... so pulling 30' not such a big deal.  And if it does get hung up on a stump or something STOP rethink the plan, change direction but by all means don't just pull harder, that's how they come over backwards on ya

[enigmaT120]

Thanks for the video on the Humbolt cut.  I didn't know what it was.  It turns out that's what everybody around here does, unless they are using a processor.  I did it for a long time but now I'm aiming for really low stumps (pre-commercial thinning) and I'm just making firewood anyway, so I make the angled cut from above.  If the tree is near my skid road I even use the wedge for firewood. 

[plaindriver]

Next, I cut the wedge out of the front of tree, then stretch the cable till the tree bows a bit. (Note: the cable is longer than the tree is high)

Good illustration of what to do. If you don't have a tractor, then a portable winch anchored to a stump works too.

Only suggestion I have is that you don't pre-load the rope. This puts tension on the tree, and makes it possible to barber chair the thing. A small load isn't an issue, but if you tension it too much it can split the log before you complete the back cut.

I have used pretty much the same method, but I only take out the slack in the rope. Once the back cut is complete then I shut off the saw, get clear and signal my helper to pull. Or walk around a safe path to the winch or tractor and haul it down myself.

Not a big change in technique, but you have more control.



This will save you a few minutes per tree if only 1 in 10 actually need winching.


Ian

Ian,
I used to do the "lazy cable" and tighten it up after the back cut, and basically pull the tree down. But, last time I did this, unbeknownst to me, there was a rotted out section in the inside of the tree, which was close to 30" dia at the stump and over 100' hi (a wht oak). Per the wedge cut, it was supposed to fall towards "12 O'Clock". Well, when the back cut hit the rotted innards, it fell towards about "3:00". The house and back patio are at "3:30 O'Clock!". No damage, luckily, but scary just the same. I felt that if I had a tight cable, it would have fallen more towards the "12:00 O'Clock" goal. Am I wrong?

Remember, I only have about 100 trees under my belt, all in the past 8 mos, so I am rather inexperienced. I really appreciate all the sage advice.


  

  

 

[thenorthman]

Not to be hypercritical...  looks like you cut off all your hold wood on one side.

Probably causing it to fall more with its natural lean then go where the cable was pulling it.  Just a thought.

The rotten center just added to the effect.

[plaindriver]

 

Not to be hypercritical...  looks like you cut off all your hold wood on one side.

Probably causing it to fall more with its natural lean then go where the cable was pulling it.  Just a thought.

The rotten center just added to the effect.

Youre probably correct. I didnt notice the deterioration from the outside, when I started cutting, it felt solid. I had to do the wedge and back cut to coax to fall 'that' way. Im thinkin if I woulda had the cable tight, it might have persuaded the tree to fall 'that' way instead of towards the house. Maybe in retro, I should have just done the wedge with some tension on the cable, then just used the tractor to pull it down. Anyways, I do all this for us, and not for a living. All the trees anywhere near structures have all been successfully felled by self (far more luck than skill Im sure).



 

[Ianab]

Any time the tree is effectively hollow like that you have a problem. The mechanics of the hinge wood don't work properly any more, and you don't have the same control from the hinge, so you may need to modify your plan

If you aren't sure, have a poke around in the notch with a screwdriver after you cut it. Make sure it IS actually solid wood in there. In that case, where the decay is coming from the wound in the tree, you might have gotten a better result with a deeper notch? Or abandon that notch, and cut another one 3 ft further up where there is more solid wood? Trim the tall stump off later.

It also looks like you trimmed one side of the hinge a bit thin, so it probably broke off early, and let the tree twist on the way down?

There is also the option of rigging more than one rope. A fixed one, in this case at 9 o'clock, this stays fixed as the tree falls, and stops it going with it's natural lean if the hinge doesn't hold. The 12 o'clock rope pulls the tree down.

Pre-loading the rope might have helped, but without that hinge wood for control it could still go pear shaped once the tree moved enough to take the tension out of the cable.

But a rotted stump is always a hazard tree, you can't rely on it to behave as it should, and need to take extra precautions. Without the rot the plan would probably have worked fine, even if the hinge wasn't perfect. But with the middle 1/2 of the hinge compromised by rot, and one end cut too thin, there is only 1/4 of the hinge trying to control the fall, and the weight of the tree can overcome that. After that, gravity is the main player.

Ian

[Jemclimber]

With that size tree, the outer few live inches should have been plenty to steer the tree down if you hadn't cut through the hinge as thenorthman had suggested.  Be very careful not to bypass your scarf/wedge cut to leave some hinge wood even if it makes pulling on the rope a little more difficult to get it started.   Be safe.

[BaldBob]

There is enough swell in the butt of that tree to give a strong indication of rot even before you put a saw in it. Also the rot was apparent in your face cut. Given that info and the fact that buildings are at risk, your safer alternative would have been to go above the butt swell to make your felling cuts, and take the high stump down later.

[Peter Drouin]

There is enough swell in the butt of that tree to give a strong indication of rot even before you put a saw in it. Also the rot was apparent in your face cut. Given that info and the fact that buildings are at risk, your safer alternative would have been to go above the butt swell to make your felling cuts, and take the high stump down later.

[rasorbackQ]

I did find and buy a used winch  Seems to work well  but would have thought a 7000 lb winch would pull right through the hills and banks. But that would only be 7000lbs at 165 ft of cable out.

[enigmaT120]

Do you have a nose cone on the logs?  I don't have one, but I saw one in use and it looks like it would help.

[Sprucegum]

If you wrap the cable around the tree trunk once or twice you can make the tree roll a bit when you pull on it. You want to wrap it so the tree rolls out of the one its hung in. Works better on spruce than poplar. Sometimes you can even make them roll out from behind the stump when ready to skid them out. Its a fine art  ;)

[Martha White Nelson]

Hi!!!  Welcome to the forum.  About the stump...drill a hole in the center and pour salt in it.  It will rot out faster if you choose to leave it.
Have a great day!