Is any sawmill operation eligible for any farmland/agriculture designation?

[thecfarm]

Some people just LOVE to complain. We live on a dead dirt road,with paper company land above us and a nice ATV road up there. My FIL was here and 2-3 ATVs went up the hill driving slow.He saw them and said,I would call the cops on them. I said why,they are not doing anything wrong. They are out for a nice ride,driving slow,not digging the road up.
Good luck to ya.

[LaneC]

What in the world is a land use variance? This sounds very very vague to me. Keep us posted, I would like to see the ending of this. Hopefully it will be a good one for you. Who do you have to give the 2500 dollars to? The guy you talked to? Hope it works in your favor. So much greed and corruption nowadays. I am not saying that is what is taking place ,but every time you turn around, if you are trying to work and do right, there are always obstacles in the way.

[Holmes]

  I would ask for a copy of the zoning laws and then specifically land use laws and agricultural laws.  Read them so you understand them.  The zoning officer could be wrong.   At least this way you will know what you are up against.  If you are doing something wrong?

[Leigh Family Farm]

What in the world is a land use variance?

As far as I understand, a land use variance is basically a permit issued by the local county government allowing you to use your land for something other than the intended zoning purposes. For example, if you converted a large house into multiple apartments (4+ units) you might need to get a land variance permit to go from residential to commercial housing.

Jswigga, I too would read all the land use codes and hire a lawyer for this. 

Don't take this the wrong way, but its New Jersey and South Jersey at that so the right grease can make the wheels of government go round. Make a donation to your local park in the form of benches or provide the wood to build something public like a playground, and let your councilman or county official be the one to take the credit. Get the local news channel involved by showing what you are doing with Superstorm Sandy trees and how beneficial you are to the community. Also, write to Gov. Christie. He is looking to boost his presidential image and you never this might be something he would look into for you. Long shot, but I'd still take the shot.

Short story to explain my point: In my neighborhood growing up (the Main Line), you were not allowed to put old house fixtures, like toilets or vanities, on the curb and Christmas trees would only get picked up on Jan. 2nd. All year long, my father would give our trash guys lemonade during the hot summer, hot coffee during the winter, and any baked goods we made. We never had a Christmas tree on our curb for no more than a day no matter what day we put it out and we never went to the local dump to dispose of our large items.

The Main Line is a local Philadelphia term referencing a section of the western suburbs of the city

[AnthonyW]

My town website has the zoning regulations listed. They are in pretty good lay-mans terms. Unfortunately, I live one turn off the wrong side of the road. The south side of the road is residential, the north side is rural residential. A sawmill operation is explicitly listed as an approved land use for rural residential, but not for residential. Both list farming as permitted uses. They don't say anything about firewood processing.

[Dad2FourWI]

An idea... check to see _when_ the south side of the road was changed to residential.... if you were there first, you should be "grandfathered" in....

We are watching this too and have our fingers crossed for you!!!!

-Dad2FourWI

[AnthonyW]

An idea... check to see _when_ the south side of the road was changed to residential.... if you were there first, you should be "grandfathered" in....

We are watching this too and have our fingers crossed for you!!!!

-Dad2FourWI

Since I have been in town, I do not recall any zoning reclassifications that affected my land or neighborhood. Even so, the way the land is arranged, it would probably on bug the heck out of my neighbors. It is a bit hard to imagine, but the two pieces of land are on an inside (concave) curve. The houses sit 90 degrees to each other but do no sit square to our property lines. It ends up that if either of us are on the back 2/3 of our own property we can look squarely at the back of the others house.

I am only planning on using the mill on my land for my own use. Any lumber produced will be for me or my immediate family. I'm not running a business nor making a profit, so the neighbor's will need to be neighborly. I call it a log splitter that produces lumber.

I now know that if/when we move, I will check the zoning ordinances first.

[ancjr]

I don't understand why we insist on electing government officials who seem to be intent on harassing and destroying any person who engages in productive activities.  I guess that we think they will steal more for us than from us.  Regards, Clark

Bravo.

[woodmills1]

owning a portable sawmill for personal use is the same as any other tool, it can be regulated for things like, noise, odors, etc, but cannot be expressly forbidden.



back to Jswigg   do not request a zoning anything, there will be a very specific proceedure for you to have to have a variance.  I do not know the specific proceedure in Elk township, but here is the proceedure in my town for comparison.  If you ask for anything it would be a sort of admittance that you needed it



proceedure in Hudson Nh

1. a request is made to the zoning administrator for an opinion on a specific use of property

2. the opinion is written by the administrator

3, that opinion may be appealed to the zoning board.  Either side may appeal, for instance if the property owner doent like the decision he can apeal, likewise the person who requested the opinion

4 the zoning board conducts a hearing and either supports or rejects the administrators decision

5 the boards decision can be appealed to the courts by either party

[Delawhere Jack]

Talked with the zoning officer today.  Apparently a resident complained.  You would think the complaint would be noise or something like that.  Instead it was "improper use of land, as per zoning"   Makes be think the resident that complained was the zoning officer himself.   So now they want me to get a land use attorney and file for a land use variance.  It's $2500 to even apply for the variance.  blaahhh

If you're land is zoned agricultural, and milling lumber falls under ag uses, then why is the onus on you to seek a variance? I would insist that the zoning officer explain to me what exactly I was doing that violated the zoning, otherwise he can go pack sand.

DO NOT SPEND A CENT on  this until they provide you with a formal complaint, and the offended "resident" comes forward. You must stand for your rights. Why did this neighbor not say anything to you personally? There are way to many sniveling little chicken sh##$ in this country now that will try to use the power of the state to get their way, but they're too DanG cowardly to confront you in person.

Frankly, I'd suspect that a developer has eyes on your property and is using this zoning stooge to harass you.

[Nomad]

     Not to hijack this, but something along the same lines.  Last year somebody complained that I had an industrial generator in my yard.  The local authorities asked me about it.  I replied "Yes, I do.  And it's big enough to power some 3rd world countries.  So?"  It's my backup power.  Does it have to be a piece of junk from a box store to be legal?  Discussion over.

[JSwigga]

I was zoned agriculture last year.  The county took farm/ag qualification from me because you need at least 5 acres dedicated to agricultural use.  I have 9 acres.  My house sits on 1.5 and according to the county my milling "operation" is taking up 3 acres.  That knocked my garlic and lima bean fields down to 4.5. Under 5 acres so I lost my qualification and my property taxes went from $7200 a year to $9900.    I appealed but they told me because I bring in so much wood from outside sources it doesn't count because I'm not taking the trees from my own land.  I lost that appeal.    I argued that every tree/log was a storm damaged tree or a nuisance tree that was removed my a tree service.  I thought arguing the green and sustainable angle would help but they thought what I was doing wasn't any different from a production mill.  i need the USDA to say that reclaiming lumber is an agriculture practice. 

[AnthonyW]

owning a portable sawmill for personal use is the same as any other tool, it can be regulated for things like, noise, odors, etc, but cannot be expressly forbidden.

I guess this is where a lawyer comes into play. I don't expect an answer to be given. I'm just thinking out loud and voicing some food for thought.

In my town there is only one zoning classification that has a permitted use that includes 'sawmills', it is called 'rural residential'. Furthermore, a sawmill is a machine. Also, a sawmill is a business.

If the 'permitted use' for a zoning ordinance lists sawmill, is it referring to the sawmill machine or to the sawmill business? Rand Lumber is a sawmill business. I am the proud owner of a Wood-Mizer Sawmill machine. But I do not operate a sawmill business. If the ordinance is referring to sawmill as a machine, then no one could mill their own trees on their own property if the property if it is not in the rural residential zone (the only zone that permits 'sawmill'). If it refers to the sawmill business, then no one can run a saw mill business in any zone that is not rural residential. But a private owner would be allowed to operate a sawmill machine for personal use.

To make the scenario more twisted. Would a portable sawmill business owner be legally permitted to operate their mill, and consequently their business, on someone else's land if that land is not in a rural residential zone?

[woodmills1]

try this,

the federal forest products laboratory is managed by the United states department of Agriculture

[shortlogger]

I lost my qualification and my property taxes went from $7200 a year to $9900.   

Are you serious $ 9900 !!!!!!   
I have a lot more than 9 acres and my property taxes are like $450 or a little less and I was complaining about them being too high . Guess I should be thankful for where I live .

[SLawyer Dave]

I was zoned agriculture last year.  The county took farm/ag qualification from me because you need at least 5 acres dedicated to agricultural use.  I have 9 acres.  My house sits on 1.5 and according to the county my milling "operation" is taking up 3 acres.  That knocked my garlic and lima bean fields down to 4.5. Under 5 acres so I lost my qualification and my property taxes went from $7200 a year to $9900.    I appealed but they told me because I bring in so much wood from outside sources it doesn't count because I'm not taking the trees from my own land.  I lost that appeal.    I argued that every tree/log was a storm damaged tree or a nuisance tree that was removed my a tree service.  I thought arguing the green and sustainable angle would help but they thought what I was doing wasn't any different from a production mill.  i need the USDA to say that reclaiming lumber is an agriculture practice.

You really should consult a local attorney that has experience in land use and specifically agricultural land use.  New Jersey in my "very" limited knowledge is one of the most over regulated states in the nation.  So it doesn't surprise me that you are running into such issues.  Some ideas:

1.  A set 5 acre minimum seems arbitrary.  Why is 4.5 acres not enough?  Just because a local jurisdiction sets such a law, doesn't mean it is validly enforceable.  Did they use some sort of scientific survey?  Did they consult with ag experts?
2.  Was this a change from a pre-existing zoning requirement.  If your land previously qualified, then it may be "grand fathered" in and the new law may not be able to be applied to your land.
3.  How did they calculate the "3 acres" for your mill?  First, did they actually do a measured survey?  I seriously doubt it.  Without such, they are not going to be able to have the EVIDENCE to support their change. 
4.  To the extent you are cutting/milling your own trees, and those of other agricultural lands, then you should be able to argue that such portion of use, (subtract from the 3 acres) is ag use.  Nothing says ag use has to be done on the ag lands the crops/ag products are coming from.  In this instance, the burden may be on you to prove what ag use your business is doing, but showing them contracts, bills and receipts should do the trick.

Cities tend to believe that they can get away with "their" interpretations of things, and so long as you don't appeal their decisions to a court of law, they do.  You appealed their decision on the ag designation and lost, but that only exhausted your "Administrative Remedys".  You can then take them to court and have an actual "neutral" judge decide if what they are doing is fair, just and reasonable.

In my practice, I have won the vast majority of such cases without even needing to go to court, because once you get to the City attorney, he is going to look at the holes in their case.  Typically the city does not have admissible and expert evidence to support their claims and arguments.  Just because some inspector "calculated" the 3 acres, isn't enough.  Is he a licensed engineer, surveyor, etc?   If not, then his "calculations" are not going to meet the standard for expert evidence.  How did he calculate the portion of the mill that is engaged in Ag production vs. non-ag production?  What was his methodology for determining this? (typically the inspector gets a blank look on his face at this point as he didn't even bother to actually take measurements of anything).   So there are likely a number of evidentiary issues that they are not going to be able to overcome in court, and therefore will not be able to rely on the 3 acre 'estimation', (because that is all it probably really was). 

My wife use to be the office manager for a very large portable sanitation company in our area.  Their yard was on ag designated land, but as residences built up around them, people started complaining.  Just like with you, the city was telling my wife's company that they had to get a variance.  That is really a trap, however, because they have no "duty" to issue one, and once you apply, then you have potentially acknowledged that you need one.  In this situation, we showed that while the "yard" was not engaged in producing ag products, the fact was that the business was part of a corporate Ag Corporation that had a number of ag producing lands that used the portable toilets.  Further, over half of their business was performing portable sanitation for ag lands, farmers and ranchers.  We also put a large sign on the front entrance, listing it as (Name) Farm and Portable Sanitation, a "division" of xxxxx farms, an Agricultural Corporation.  Due to this and having all of the state and federal permits and licenses as an ag corporation, the city backed down and told the neighbors there was nothing they could do. 

Again, having a knowledgeable attorney that is known for doing solid work representing you is a real requirement.  The reality is that if you try to do it on your own, they will assume that you are not willing to take them to court, and will act accordingly.  Again, they KNOW they will win any appeal within the city/township, because they are the ones making the final decision.  The only way someone wins such an appeal, is when the city/township becomes convinced that you are not going to accept their "determination", and if you take them to court, you will probably win.  Remember, if they do try to enforce such a rule, and you ultimately win in court, you could very well also have a right to receive your attorney fees and court costs.  Plus, no city likes to go to court, if they think they have a legitimate shot of losing. 

So ask your county ag reps who they would recommend as a lawyer, and make an appointment to discuss the matter with them.  It will be money well spent.

Hope that helps.

[Delawhere Jack]

I lost my qualification and my property taxes went from $7200 a year to $9900.   

Are you serious $ 9900 !!!!!!   
I have a lot more than 9 acres and my property taxes are like $450 or a little less and I was complaining about them being too high . Guess I should be thankful for where I live .

I worked with a guy 10 years ago who's parents had a house on 1/2 acre in Jersey.


Are you sitting down?


$6,700/yr property tax bill.   

[ancjr]

I lost my qualification and my property taxes went from $7200 a year to $9900.   

Are you serious $ 9900 !!!!!!   
I have a lot more than 9 acres and my property taxes are like $450 or a little less and I was complaining about them being too high . Guess I should be thankful for where I live .

I worked with a guy 10 years ago who's parents had a house on 1/2 acre in Jersey.


Are you sitting down?


$6,700/yr property tax bill.   :o

Those multi-million dollar celebrity mansions are often on an acre or less.  Plenty of room to put up 8000sq ft house and Olympic sized pool.   :)

[JSwigga]

$6900 for property taxes doesn't get you a mansion around here. That's about what you would pay for house and land worth around $250,000.  There are bunch of developments all over the place with $500-$600 hundred thousand dollar homes.  They only sit on 1-1.5 acres and pay $15,000-$20,000 a year in taxes. It's crazy.

[LeeB]

Does NJ have a state income tax?

[Holmes]

 Yes Jersey has a state income tax and and comes in 2nd for most taxes behind Connecticut.

[LeeB]

Wow, and I thought Arkansas was bad.

[Leigh Family Farm]

Portions of Delaware County, PA have $650,000 houses on a postage stamp size property that pay almost $15,000 a year in taxes. Its just the area we Tri-State residents live in.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Yes Jersey has a state income tax and and comes in 2nd for most taxes behind Connecticut.

: : : : :

[Radar67]

I will consider myself lucky to be paying only $60 a year tax on my 20 acres.