Dreams of a cabin

[Holmes]

 Some of the best places to spend money and do it right is the foundation , insulation, doors and windows.  A full 8' deep foundation and cellar gives you storage, a place for plumbing, water tank, water heater , electric service and living space while the cabin is being built. Once you get past the foundation you can do all the savings you want on your build.  Maybe you could build the foundation with 12" concrete blocks as opposed to pouring concrete walls.
  A walk out cellar would be even better.

[rmack]

Whatever route you choose to go, it's probably a good idea to get an autocad program, sketchup is quite common, to make your various design changes before you start building.

also, bear in mind, power poles are generally an expensive proposition... one that may have an effect on site choice. also, most places have specific regulations regarding the distance between and sometimes placement of septic field and well. If you are near a stream/lake/pond you may have riparian zoning to deal with.

... and one thing that is a definite issue, at least where I live. MICE!

those little buggers love to make houses in the insulation between your floor joists, from there they bore holes in your floorboards all over the house in order to have good access to your food.

there is nothing like getting home from a long drive and finding mouse droppings between your sheets.

mouse traps will not come close to getting them because it doesn't get the young ones, mouse poison only results in dead mice in your floor stinking up the whole house for weeks on end... and if a rat gets in there and dies the place will stink for a lot longer than that.

I can say from experience, decomp is not something you ever get used to.

[Thehardway]

Jeff,

I think we will all advise based on our past experience, what is common in our area and what we like and don't like.  My personal experience would vouch for a couple possible systems.

1. Piers or pilings

pier or piling foundations are probably the quickest, cheapest, and most reliable means of gaining a good foundation.  My uncles built a fishing cabin along the shores of Lake Erie back in the '40's using 6" steel well casing.  They drove them in with an old Fordson tractor that had a rear mount winch with a slip clutch bought surplus off a quaker state oil lease.  The cottage still stands today.  Having access to plumbing under the building can be a big plus for buildings which are only temporarily used.  It allows draining of water lines and other maintenance to performed without cost of a basement and without crawlspace limitations. Pilings can be made from cardboard tubes or PVC pipe filled with concrete mixed on site. They can also be made of PT wood or old telephone pole butts, dock pilings, etc.  All are cheap, readily obtainable and transportable.

2.  Monolithic Slab on grade with shallow frost protected footings.

If you can get a concrete truck on site and since you have a backhoe at your disposal, this is a great way to do a reliable, permanent foundation.  Since your code calls for going pretty deep, I would talk to your local code officials about using a Shallow Frost Protected Footing system which is engineering approved for climates colder than yours.  These are regularly used in canada and alaska with good results.  They use EPS foam as a thermal break to protect shallow footings from frost heave.  This document should answer any questions they might have as to its acceptance or reliability.  I beleive you will find the foam cheaper, lighter, and easier to work with than the amount of concrete neccessary for conventional foundation systems.
 
http://www.huduser.org/publications/pdf/fpsfguide.pdf


Moving on to the structure.   A slab will work well for vertical log walls,  peir/piling will require some pretty hefty sills.  If pier/piling method is used, I would reccommend a hybrid wallsystem using 4 or 5 courses of horizontal "D" log walls bringing you up to window sill height.  From this point up you can do vertical logs.  This gives you the settlement advantages of vertical with the weight bearing advantages of horizontal. (Doors and stairway will still need some settling consideration. 

I would recommend that you look thoroughly at a salt-box style cabin plan as it will give you added head room and space in the upstairs.

Give a lot of consideration to siting location, wind direction, solar exposure and shading.  Nothing worse than a cabin that stays dark, damp and cold.  If not properly situated you will be stoking your stove in July and August and still have mold and mildew.  Plenty of S/SE glazing helps this area immensely. Avoid N/NW glazing at all cost. 

Allow for sufficient eave/gable overhang to protect your log walls from the elements and it will save you a lot of maintenance.  Nothing worse than spending all you vacation time fixing your cabin rather than enjoying it with hammock or recreation time.

Moving to plumbing, If your stays will be limited in duration and you don't plan to build for re-sale or have lots of company to entertain, you can save a lot of money by using either an incinerator toilet or a composting toilet.  This eliminates the need for an expensive septic system as there will be no "black water".  Shower, sink, and wash water can be drained into a holding tank and recycled for irrigation purposes. 

Similarly, if you use a metal roof, a rain catchment and filtration system can supply all of your potable water or supplement a low yield well.  Pre-engineered water systems are available and stamped to meet code.  This eliminates a lot of the cost and worry involved with siting, drilling, casing, inspection and testing of a well.  I don't know what situation you have in the UP but in many of the Great Lakes regions, you will get gas in a shallow well before you get water.  Sand can also be a big problem, plugging your head and pipes and eroding your pump impeller.  Rain water can actually be more reliable if you use common sense and don't wash cars etc. with your potable supply.

Electric.  It sounds like you will have grid power available.  This is cheapest to get started and do your construction.  Orient roofs and pitches so PV can be used at a future time if at all possible.  On the UP with a hill wind might be a viable option.  Consider this as you view the land.

Heat.  If wood is plentiful, you can't beat heating with it for cost and convenience.  If you are pouring a slab, consider putting some pex pipe in it.  Even if you don't connect it now, you will have the option later.  Heated floors are really a plus in a cabin and a woodstove heat exchanger is really easy to fab up.  You can also use it to pre-heat your hot water.

If you really want to do some interesting stuff to save cost and make maximum use of the backhoe, consider a earth bermed cabin or underground cabin with a south exposed vertical log wall and some skylighting.  There are lots of creative ways to do this involving some neat ideas with shipping containers etc.  Let your imagination and creativity run wild. 

If you can avoid well, septic, and grid Electric, you can pretty much do as you please without the code folks even knowing about your presence.  It can have its advantages unless of course you decide to sell to someone who can't pay cash.

Have fun and be safe.

[submarinesailor]

Boss,

Once you get things planned out, you should seriously consider hosting a Cabin Raising.  I am sure that a number of members would come up (or down) and help you out.

Jeff - I completely and totally agree with Danny.  You set a date and if there is anyway I can be there I will.  With me retiring in June of next year, I should be able to be there. 

BTW - if my road trip plans go thru as planned, I will be coming thru your area in late July/early August.  Crossing into Canada "at the Soo" and coming back in the USA in upstate NY.  All this on US Route 2.

Let me know if you want to schedule some work during that time frame.

Bruce

[Satamax]

My reason for the smaller foot print, with additional sleeping on a loft/2nd story would be for heating. I want one central heating stove, be it wood or corn or gas, or whatever, to heat the cabin. No ducts or anything like that.

http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp

If this idea tickles your fancy, there's new ways, where you build a bell/wall in the house, which heats up the whole house.   Bells, batch rockets etc are all discussed here.

http://donkey32.proboards.com/

and here

http://www.permies.com/forums/f-125/rocket-stoves

Two examples of the modern ones i like. Tho, it's in Dutch, but pics are self explanatory.

http://technologieforum.forumatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=27

http://batchrocket.hostoi.com/html/foto.html


They can be made dirt cheap.

For your foundation, i don't know what you need there. But here, any concrete has to be 3ft deep. Under the frost line (i live at 5000ft high)

If this can give you an idea. I plan tu use piers for my future building, quite big blocks of concrete, and do a perimeter insulation, just laid on the ground with air entrained concrete blocks, which are insulative. Just  to raise the first strawbales off the ground and snow. All this perimeter will be filled with 18" of gravel, insulated underneath by a layer of styrofoam, directly on the ground. This will act as mass for the bottom rocket stove, and i will pour a 4" slab on top of that. This is for the workshop part. I worked out some of the costs, and making the concrete myself, it's dead cheap. Less than 5000€ for foundations.

Obviously you won't do the same, but this can give you ideas.

[D L Bahler]

I was thinkin about suggesting something similar to Satamax. Place some kind of Mass heater in the center

he mentions the rocket stove, I know of the old traditional for from Central Europe known as the Kachelofen

here is a picture like it would look:


 

Such an oven can be made into any configuration you would like, the ones like I have pictured would be placed on a dividing wall with the kitchen on one side, the kitchen side of the stove is where the fire is, and it is also the cooking stove. 

[Jeff]

I don't think heating will be an issue for me. Lots of options there. 

[D L Bahler]

Hope this isn't getting sidetracked, especially with Jeff hangin around (eeeeee) but here is a good video showing how the Kachelofen is made, if you like it.  Video is German, but you can learn a lot just seeing what he does

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPbprpfQGVY

You can of course make it more simply, using just brick construction without the fancy tiles for example.

I will be building one of these using brick and then plastering over the outside with a tinted plaster to make it like an old oven.

[Ljohnsaw]

Jeff,

I'll through in my comments/experience so far.  But first, I guess I need to take you down from your pedestal I placed you on  :D :D  I thought, as the King Admin, you knew all!

I'm still in the permitting stages for my cabin out here in California.  In retrospect, I probably should have gone permit-less but I'm a little bit visible.  I managed to get a well and septic in this year and spent $20k on the well, $6,000 on the septic (materials + engineering) plus $9,800 on backhoe services.  I guess I should have bought a used backhoe - I'd be even right now!

My plans for my footings is I need to be 24" below grade as the soil is very granular and the county says that there is no frost heave ???  I will build a Fastwall ICF basement (10' wall but backfilled 2' inside and out).  This (because of seismic) will require about a mile of rebar.  I've spent $18k on the block and will spend another chunk of money on concrete (don't recall how much right now).

My engineer has helped me design as a full timber frame (along with all you-guys' help) WITHOUT plywood, etc.  Though I will need plenty of Simpson ties (seismic again :).  My last hurdle is fire suppression.  It became law in California in 2012 but is following Federal standards so be on the lookout for that!

John

[Jeff]

Question for you sketchup users. Does it have any provisions for using log construction?  I'm pretty certain I want to do vertical log and using logs for the ridge and rafters/ roofing system.

I've been tempted to just locate the cabin site further back in the hardwoods and just start building. ;) 

[sbishop]

Jeff, will you require permits to build?

I built mine on 24" round " (4" thick) cement slabs...got the idea from Pappy. I will have to relevel the cabin next spring but its been 5 years and it hasn't settle that bad...Just a thought on the foundation.

Sbishop

[rmack]

Jeff, I have some experience with autocad but after suggesting sketchup yesterday, I thought maybe I should download it and try it out myself  :D

a google search shows that sketchup is suitable for designing with logs, one issue I found yesterday is that when you create a cylinder, it doesn't come with a central axis that is easy to snap to. designing a log building you would obviously rely on many different cylinder components for each distinctive piece of the building and their joinery etc... so you need to be able to snap to the axis.

this is a video for creating cylinder objects with center axis' that are easy to snap to, thus making them easy to work with.

one other thing I noticed, there seems to be a lot more support for sketchup than the expensive brand, and while it does seem a bit cruder than autocad, the availability of other peoples help via youtube etc is of great value to me. the price for sketchup pro seems reasonable in comparison and I have seen some very complex timber frame drawings made with it. If complex timber frame joinery can be designed in sketchup, then I believe complex round log joinery can be designed as well.

btw, not sure if this video is designed for grade 8 students or not, but I learned something from it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Q2pqwV0q8

[Ljohnsaw]

Great video (though the sound went out about 2/3 through), except he left out a lot of subtle things to know.  Like double clicking then right click to make a "component".  Making components is KEY to being successful in using Sketchup.  Also, it depends on which direction you go when you drag to select!!!

Jeff, it took me about 2 months to really get the hang of Sketchup.  I had no experience in CAD or any other 3-d modeling software but I do have a background in (old school) drafting.  You need the pro version in order to do Layout (2-d drawings like when you do drafting) to generate your building plans.

I now draw all sorts of things with it (VERY quickly) so I can visualize what I want to make.  It's great to be able to spin your project around in space.

[Jeff]

I'll probably use the program I have in hand. I keep it in my head. :D    Once I have the foundation and and floor deck, I plan on putting down a treated lumber sill. Then on that I think I will use another horizontal two sided log sill of Tamarack. On top of that, I plan on installing my vertical cedar logs. I will use the woodmizer to flatten opposing sides of the vertical logs. I thn plan on coming up with a jig, so I can create double grooves on the sides of each vertical lot, to insert plywood splines. Between the spines I will use some sort of foam. I'll use two sided logs to create window sills, and also more horizontal logs for the first floor top plates.  Just some preliminary thoughts. 

[Corley5]

A stick build would get you in cabin quicker and might be easier to deal with the zoning regs but it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission  ;D   Build with green lumber right off the mill.  Six inch walls for R-21 insulation.  Saw the cedar into 1X for board and batten siding    What's growing on the place for framing lumber  ???  Cedar for vertical logs would have to be dry so it wouldn't shrink creating gaps in the walls.  Even with a spline and foam, caulk or chinking of some sort would probably be needed to make up for seasonal movement  ???

[D L Bahler]

I'd like to see what you come up with for a grooving jig

[rmack]

I now draw all sorts of things with it (VERY quickly) so I can visualize what I want to make.  It's great to be able to spin your project around in space.

nice to know there is someone to bug for sketchup tips handy  ;D provided they allow it on the forum. 

I'll probably use the program I have in hand. I keep it in my head. :D

This fellow has been living off-grid for quite a while this video may be helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSV7oP43Fi8&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLQDJTgvXoAZUIrP2-CiAAX3vm9CT4OTmt

[Dave Shepard]

The vertical logs sound almost like a Norwegian Stave church, only a bit smaller.

[SwampDonkey]

hydro means electricity......

Must come from the days when there were hydroelectric dams producing electricity. The name sticks so that all electricity is assumed to be "hydro".

To me, hydro refers to hydraulics...   :

In Canada, in more rural parts especially, hydro is all over. Coal power has been extinct here in NB, but we also have nuclear and fuel oil. I live by 5 hydro dams here all connected with the Saint John River. Newfoundland is actually going to send hydro power by cable on the sea floor to NS. Churchill falls is a huge project.

[SwampDonkey]

Wish I had some photos of the cedar camp over on the Renous River. At the time I was there last it replaced and old camp. She was rugged though, keep a bear out anyway.  ;D

[Jeff]

I've got no urge to live off grid. ;)

A stick build would get you in cabin quicker and might be easier to deal with the zoning regs but it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission  ;D   Build with green lumber right off the mill.  Six inch walls for R-21 insulation.  Saw the cedar into 1X for board and batten siding    What's growing on the place for framing lumber  ???  Cedar for vertical logs would have to be dry so it wouldn't shrink creating gaps in the walls.  Even with a spline and foam, caulk or chinking of some sort would probably be needed to make up for seasonal movement  ???

You can't build with green lumber in Chippewa county from my understanding, however, you can build a log home.  There should be no gaps with the cedar If I cut a few months in advance, and use my flatten, groove and spine thought.

[Corley5]

You can't build with green lumber in Chippewa county from my understanding,

Don't call for an inspection until it's been nailed up for a few days.  They'll never know the difference ;)   Can you use rough sawn  ???  Does it need a grade stamp  ???  Anything log seems like a lot of extra work to me not only during the construction phase but future maintenance too.  The best thing I ever did to this house was cover the white pine T&G siding with vinyl 

[sawmilllawyer]

Jeff, might check on the Log Home Builders Association Forum site. Although they build with horizontal logs they are butt and pass and held together with rebar. So minimum shrinking, shifting or settlingbecause logs are some whate dry and rebar holds them in place. Good R value because of the mass. They have a class in March, 2013 in Las Vegas, NV. The information provided covers entire construction of building and membership in the LBA. Just my two cents, might be worth checking out. Do not let any obstacles prevent you from this goal. It is a good one, no matter how it gets done.

[D L Bahler]

All due respect to everyone and their suggestions, but if Jeff has chosen vertical log construction I get the feeling he has made that choice knowledgeably and for sound reasons. I don't think people should feel like they need to talk him out of his choice or suggest their alternative, etc. 

I for one would like to see his take on this method, as it's not one that's done very often here.

[Howdy]

Jeff,
you might want to read about Dorthy Ainsworth building her vertical timber home on the Backwoods Home Magazine website.  She learned about building and did all the work herself from collecting the timber to pounding the nails.  When she was doing the finish work, staining and varnishing, her home burned to the ground and she had to do everything over again.  It helps a person to realize they are limited only by their own fears. 

If you would allow people to help, I'm sure there would be a ready pool of workers available.  For all the benefit we receive from the Forestry Forum it would be great to give a little back. 

What are the reason's for building your cabin?
Is this a getaway or something for future investment?