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Author Topic: Narrow Kerf Chain  (Read 19835 times)

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Offline webgal

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2013, 04:33:15 PM »
The Stihl sprocket in question for running the low profile (aka picco)  chain on a 660 Stihl for milling purposes would be the Stihl part number. 1122 640 2006.

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

Rob was asking about narrow kerf benefits. Turns out he mentioned he was happy with his set up and he is even running a narrow kerf set up on his stock saw.

You mentioned swapping the sprocket around like you did, was based on 40 years of sawing and loads of experience. I'm a "by-the-book" gal for sure and encourage Rob to weigh his options. I've a serious respect for timberfallers and chainsaws. I'll let you guys suss this one out for yourselves. I certainly don't have 40  years of sawing experience, but I have listened to tales from a wide range of long timer operators.
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2013, 04:47:44 PM »
The Stihl sprocket in question for running the low profile (aka picco)  chain on a 660 Stihl for milling purposes would be the Stihl part number. 1122 640 2006.

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

Rob was asking about narrow kerf benefits. Turns out he mentioned he was happy with his set up and he is even running a narrow kerf set up on his stock saw.

You mentioned swapping the sprocket around like you did, was based on 40 years of sawing and loads of experience. I'm a "by-the-book" gal for sure and encourage Rob to weigh his options. I've a serious respect for timberfallers and chainsaws. I'll let you guys suss this one out for yourselves. I certainly don't have 40  years of sawing experience, but I have listened to tales from a wide range of long timer operators.
Yes that part number you gave must be the new updated #, so you must still sell them. So what do you sell at Baileys in LoPro for your LogO Sol mills?

Speaking of "by the book" not everything you hear from some arm chair coaches are worth any thing. Read my last post to Gregg  aka Grandedog in the "milling chain 394XP" thread.
If Rob tries out the Stihl 63PS Picco on his 545 the exact way I did as I explained in the previous post with my 550XP and it doesn't work out for him , then I'll buy him a new b/c. He sends me the b/c , I'll pay his shipping and I'll send him a new .325 NK b/c.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline webgal

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2013, 05:19:15 PM »
Actually for milling with the Logosol units the 63PMX Stihl picco ripping chain is the way to go. We used to have our 30LR made by Carlton, but since then Oregon bought them out and Stihl are the only ones (that I know of) that are steadily producing that specialized chain.

My early days of being big ears for all the tales told, one guy told me how he had done a rebuild and didn't put the cover on to test it out and it sucked his shirt in and ripped it off his back and only left the collar rings and the sleeve rings of his cotton T. Yep, I believed him...  :'(
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

Offline Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2013, 06:27:11 PM »
HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.

Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2013, 06:29:59 PM »
Actually for milling with the Logosol units the 63PMX Stihl picco ripping chain is the way to go. We used to have our 30LR made by Carlton, but since then Oregon bought them out and Stihl are the only ones (that I know of) that are steadily producing that specialized chain.

My early days of being big ears for all the tales told, one guy told me how he had done a rebuild and didn't put the cover on to test it out and it sucked his shirt in and ripped it off his back and only left the collar rings and the sleeve rings of his cotton T. Yep, I believed him...  :'(

I think your the only one telling tales here webgal :D
So, you haven't answered my question what 3/8" LoPro drive sprockets and bars do you stock for your LogOSol  units?
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2013, 07:59:53 PM »
......

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

.....

The pitch of both regular 3/8" and Picco/low profile is about .366.

There actually is no .375 chain out there, even though that number often is used in marketing of 3/8" chain...... :(
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2013, 08:06:48 PM »
HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.

Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert


True!  :)
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2013, 08:20:03 PM »
HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.


Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert
Philbert, yes the match isn't perfect but then look how pitch goes out the window when a sprocket has worn and a new chain is put on it.
I think only Oregon has the claim to fame of producing a "true even pitch" chain  with their .404 (can't think of the model#off the top of my head) So "out of pitch chain" is almost normal in this industry.
Over the years I have carved with a Picco chain on a 044, milled with it on a 066 and a 395XP. With all that strenuous cutting with such a small cutter size filing life was not great, but it did the job very well for its short life for what I used it for. Only the little .043 Picco I had a problem with peening and tightening up of the links with the bigger saws .

I was just suggesting to the OP to give the Picco 63PS a try seeing his other saw is running LoPro, for the ammount of cutting he does he should be happy.
I do run the NK .325 on my 550XP and 338XPT and I'm really happy with it, excellent edge holding retention and cuts more aggressively then the .325 chisel 20LPX.
But I was sure impressed with the speed of the Picco chisel today on the 550.
Here's another pic of the 63PS Picco compared to the NK .325 for Rob to ponder over.
 

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline joe_indi

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2013, 10:55:19 PM »

Here's another pic of the 63PS Picco compared to the NK .325 for Rob to ponder over.
 

 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
Coincidentally, months ago, I had uploaded a video on Youtube that shows the full chisel Stihl PS3 in action  in comparison with Stihl's semi chisel 63PM .Both chains were out of the box. What to see is the bigger chip size with the Picco Chisel running and the slightly increased cutting speed.Since then I tried it on my 026. The cutting is  nothing short of amazing.

Offline massmanute

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2018, 04:27:08 AM »
Bringing an old thread back to life, I find the whole topic of pitch, gauge, profile, and kerf rather confusing. I understand what pitch is, and I understand what gauge is, but it is unclear to me how profile and kerf fit into the picture, particularly in regards to compatibility.

I guess my real question boils down  to the following: If I have a sprocket and bar for 3/8" pitch and 0.05" gauge, are there any compatible chain types that can give narrow kerf than a standard chain? 

Application: Milling using a MS660 saw.

Thanks.  

Offline DelawhereJoe

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2018, 09:31:12 AM »
You can get a 3/8 picco sprocket for your 660 and also a 3/8 picco bar in the 3003 mount, but the longest you can get in it is a 16" bar unless you run a hard nose bar.
WD-40, DUCT TAPE, 024, 026, 362c-m, 041, homelite xl, JD 2510

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2018, 10:16:49 AM »
If it wasn't for little tiny chain there wouldn't be little tiny saws .The early stuff was 1/4" which went to 3/8" lo pro,pico whatever you want to call it .Fact I have some little saws that still have 1/4" which Oregon once made in chisel until Ralph Nader put his two cents in and got it outlawed .
Now on a little saw with high RPMs of course the small chain would cut faster but to put a micro chain on something like an 066 Stihl would not prove much IMO other than show it could be done .

Can you only imagine filing a 36" loop of micro chain ? My word it would take forever and take at least 3 beverages before the job was complete .Then unless to had the bladder of an elephant it would take trip behind a tree .Whatever floats your boat I guess ,doesn't float mine .

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2018, 11:16:02 AM »
Oh the memories re reading this 5 year old thread. :D
SawTroll and webgal probably some of the 2 most knowledgeable saw people out there.

Pro Husqvarna SawTroll dropped off the face of the earth after the MS462 and MS500i were introduced.

webgal is an interesting case. She worked for Bailey's up to about the end of this 2013 thread.
Then Bailey's was no longer our sponsor.
She has a great signature:
"Gotta know when to tell them, know when to walk away, know when to run......"
Caprice Becker. Laytonville, California.

That she did.... :)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline massmanute

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2018, 02:08:21 PM »
It sounds as if I am stuck with the standard chain unless I change the sprocket and bar, and even then I can't use a long bar. Is that correct?

I was hoping to get a little narrower kerf in my milling, but I can live with what I have now if I have to, particularly since my main purpose at this point is to "learn the ropes".

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2018, 02:35:18 PM »
File your standard chain's cutters back as small as possible and with the depth gauges filed down at about .035 - .040 clearance.
As long as your bar rails are not spread you will be amazed how well that chain will cut ....and it's now a narrow kerf chain with a strong chassis and nothing else needs to be changed.;)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2018, 05:54:18 PM »
The depth gauge spec of .035-.040 I suggested above with the cutters filed back to near the witness marks is for cross cutting.
For milling I suggest .045 - .050.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline massmanute

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2018, 07:05:20 PM »
The depth gauge spec of .035-.040 I suggested above with the cutters filed back to near the witness marks is for cross cutting.
For milling I suggest .045 - .050.
Thanks. I would have never thought of those ideas on my own.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2018, 08:51:12 PM »
You're welcome.
I'm not saying to take a new chain and file all the cutters back to the witness marks.
If you have any old half used up 3/8" chains like 33RS, file or grind them back ahead of the top plate witness to allow some sharpening life. Let's say with the working corner of the cutter is in line with the middle of the rear rivet to the back of it on the sideplate. About 1/4 to a 1/3 left of the cutter's length.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2018, 09:14:04 PM »
I really like the 91 vx semi chiesel, stays sharp a long time and cuts great.. You want to use a 6 tooth on 45cc and less as a 7 tooth 3/8 lp cuts about the same as a .325 7 tooth, tried that and the 3/8 lp 6 tooth cuts the fastest by quite a bit.   Steve
That 91 vx  I have run with a 24" bar on a 61cc husky 262xp. Not good in pine but cuts fast in hard -hardwood and dry spruce knots. Problem is filing such small teeth by eye.

Offline Inaotherlife

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2018, 06:11:09 PM »
Very informative thread.

I'm just starting to grasp the ins and outs of how a 7-pin .325 can possibly equal or better a 6-spur 3/8 low profile on some saws.

Not sure if the benefit outweighs the cost of switching though. Unless your saw needs replacements to begin with.

Thanks HT, and ST, and all the other contributors, for sharing your knowledge.

Still, I'm hesitant to alter bars for applications that they weren't originally designed for. More to learn.



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