Logmaster BANKRUPT

[yarnammurt]

I just got a letter in the mail with a $13,000 check saying they went under. I have been waiting on my LM-6 for over 3 months. I was going to pick up a few weeks ago. I spoke with them the week before thanksgiving they said all was good. And now this. They took my LM-15 in on trade and already sold it, so now what. I am so *pithed I cant stand it. >:( >:( >:( >:(

[thecfarm]

That is too bad to hear they went under. I do hope you did not lose money in all this. I know you lost time in waiting.  :(

[yarnammurt]

I'm out about $8000

[sigidi]

AND a bloody sawmill, not to make ya feel worse, but losing the mill is a bigger/longer loss than $8,000 out of pocket at the moment.....

[JSwigga]

I was wondering why they never called me back after leaving a few voice mails about buying a mill.   That stinks they built a really nice product. 

[petefrom bearswamp]

Evidently the product was not good enough to be profitable. Sorry about your loss.
pete

[1woodguy]

   That would really tick me off!
Sorry you got stung

[redbeard]

This is terrible, sorry to hear this.

[JSwigga]

Evidently the product was not good enough to be profitable. Sorry about your loss.
pete

I think they had a great product.  Just bad marketing.

[drobertson]

Sometimes bad marketing is confused with poor management,  I suppose they go hand in hand,  sorry for your loss,  hate to hear it,    david

[Hilltop366]

I guess you could count your self lucky that you got a cheque for 13gs.

I'd be standing at the bank door waiting for it to open up.

Still sucks though.

[Magicman]

Many times it has absolutely nothing to do with the product.  Sometimes it is marketing, but it also could be "taking" more than it was "making".   :-\

[beenthere]

That stinks they built a really nice product.

Maybe sold it too cheap, along with the limited marketing.
A tough market to get in to.

Sorry to hear that you got hooked. Other than not letting them have your mill until the new one showed up at the door, what else could you have done?

[Nomad]

     I know I'm going to sound trite saying "That's a real shame", but I can't get away with saying what I really want to without ending up in the WoodShed.  Sure am sorry about your hit.

[rmack]

what are the chances of showing up at the plant with a trailer and loading out enough stuff to take some of the sting out?

can you sue to get your mill back from wherever it went?

[Jeff]

what are the chances of showing up at the plant with a trailer and loading out enough stuff to take some of the sting out?

Did you really just suggest this? :

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Its probably better just to accept and cut your losses. No one can touch them now.

[LaneC]

I feel for you. I wished that kind of thing would not happen. I have been burned before(for almost that exact amount) and it hurts. Hope it works out a little better than it is now anyway.

[JB Griffin]

That really sucks, I agree with Poston Just cut your losses and make the best of it.
Best of luck.

[rmack]

what are the chances of showing up at the plant with a trailer and loading out enough stuff to take some of the sting out?

Did you really just suggest this? :

maybe there is a cultural difference here? you never know what the situation is until you show up at the gate. I guess some people don't think twice about letting go of 8k, I see things differently. 

[beenthere]

Would/could end up in handcuffs if loading out stuff, which would add more sting than already are feeling.

What is the cultural difference? 

[shortlogger]

I wonder how a guy can get Logmaster parts now ? Hopefully none of it is speciality made by them . Im pretty sure everything on my Lm 1 can be ordered from about any industrial supply store .

[5quarter]

I too would show up at the gate, trailer in tow. perhaps after talking with the owners, some sort of material compensation could be agreed on. or perhaps not. Either way, I've learned its much more productive dealing face to face with a debtor than it is by phone or mail. They may even have another trade in mill they could give you, to replace your mill that they sold. At the least, I would find out with which court they filed and submit a claim.  There is a possibility that you may recover a portion of your losses, depending on how the assets are dispersed.

[Brad_S.]

You guys don't understand bankruptcy laws.
Even if you owned a mill and it was on their property, once they file, you can't just go and take it back.

[Brucer]

If they've declared bankruptcy, there's not a DanG thing you or they can do to help you recover your lost money. It's in the hands of a receiver, and probably under the jurisdiction of a court. You'll be treated like any other unsecured creditor -- you'll get a share of any funds left over when the assets are sold off.

Be darn sure you follow up. Find out who the receiver is and make a claim -- don't assume they will automatically register the fact that they owe you money. Check it out ASAP because there are usually time limits involved.

[sandhills]

My old boss at the salebarn I work at went through this with cattle, when they are sold the seller receives their check that day, from the salebarn, trouble was the buyer wrote the salebarn a bad check for the cattle, just under 50k if memory serves right (not the only time this happened).  My bosses opinion was he owned those cattle then, which in my mind he did, but by law if he would have pulled up and loaded them at the buyers place and taken them back he'd be the one in cuffs  :.  It took 2 or 3 years in court but he did get the money, the buyer had also filed bankruptcy so I have hope you will get yours back also but I wouldn't go loading anything up just now, might just be rubbing salt in a wound  :-\.

[5quarter]

Banks are by far the largest receivers of proceeds from bankruptcy sales. Filers generally have no love for the banks and until an inventory of assets is presented to the court, it is not unusual for the owner to try and settle up with some of his best suppliers and customers first. is it legal? probably not. but its done nonetheless. I would certainly talk in person with the owners and see what they could do for me. Legally, they don't have to do anything, but you would be surprised how many filers will settle up with private persons if for no other reason than to reduce the final proceeds to the bank. In the Peoples Republic of NY, it may not be possible as courts will lock down businesses like they were crime scenes, but elsewhere, the courts are not quite so zealous.

[SLawyer Dave]

My login info for the U.S. Bankruptcy reports (Pacer) system, is at the office, so I can't be sure, but I suspect Logmaster has not filed BK yet.  (If the letter with the check came from the BK court, then ignore what I am saying), but I doubt it.  The two most likely bankruptcies they would have filed is either a Chapter 7, (discharge) or a Chapter 11, (reorganization).  Under either chapter, you should not have gotten that money back, (under the vast majority of situations), without first filing a "creditor's claim" with the court.  So if you didn't file such a claim, I suspect the company has shut down, or is in the process of doing so, but as of yet, has not actually filed.

This is good, because you got your money back now.  The other option is that they held your payment in a 'trust' account, so that they never took constructive possession of your money, (but I rather doubt this also).  As an attorney, I am required to hold a client's money in a trust account until I earn it, but a retail company like Logmaster is not, and it would be highly unlikely for them to do so. 

So my educated guess is that they are shutting down the business and trying to refund money to their creditors, hoping that they can do enough to not be forced into bankruptcy.  If no one "sues" them, then they will likely not be forced into bk.  By not being forced into bk, then the equipment and assets of the business don't necessarily have to be sold for the benefit of the creditors, and the principal owners/operators may be able to keep or sell them for their own personal benefit. 

So if the letter did NOT come from the BK court, you need to immediately start hounding Logmaster with demands for your missing $8k, (or maybe something to replace it).  Many times it is the "squeaky wheel" that gets greased in these situations, so a letter from an attorney may be very helpful.  If you receive an actual Notice of Bankruptcy from the court, there should be an attached "Creditor's Claim".  You MUST fill this form out, specifying the trade in you made and the $8k you are owed, and file it with the court by the deadline specified in the notice.  The filing is free, but if you don't do it, then you will be SOL, even if the court is later able to come up with money to pay back creditors.

While I am licensed to practice in all Federal BK courts, I don't generally take cases out of California and Nevada, so I am not looking to represent you.  However, if you have any questions I might be able to help you with, feel free to ask or PM me.

Good luck.  Sorry you are having to experience this.

Dave

[Ianab]

If you got a check I would count yourself lucky. My guess is that the owners can see the writing on the wall, and know they are going under? They have made a refund to you with what funds they do have available, because if they had been officially declared bankrupt you would be an unsecured creditor, and have to wait for whatever was left over once the receivership was complete. And you would be in line AFTER staff wages, IRD, and secured creditors like a bank that hold a mortgage over properly or plant. Depending on how deep the hole is, there might not be anything left to pay out unsecured creditors.

I would get the cheque banked ASAP, in case their bank account get frozen by the receiver, as that's the first thing they should do. It's also possible they will try and claim that payment back if it was just before the bankruptcy, but probably unlikely as they would need a court order to enforce this, and the costs might outweigh the value.

Then keep in touch and find out what is happening. File a claim with the receiver so you are on the list if there is any more $4 to distribute when the dust clears.

"Claiming" items from the business in receivership will just get you arrested for theft, even if you are legitimately owed the money. Saying they owed it might get your sentence reduced, but that's about it. Not worth the risk.

[oklalogdog]

Wow! this reminds me of back in the day.  I had a Pipe and Steel supply back in the 80's.  We were selling stainless steel to an ethanol plant that was going in.  They were buying 30-40 thou a month and paying up at the end of every month.  Then one month they didn't pay.  Then it went to 60 days - then 90 days and so on and so on.  I kept calling the secretary and she said they were expecting to get money in any day.  Finally one day I called her and she told me they got some money in that day, she wasn't really supposed to pay me but she was quitting that day and if I came by she would write me a check.

I did and she did - it was about 30 grand.  I went directly to their bank which thank God was a local bank and got a cashier's check - then took it to our bank and cashed it.  Whew!  I don't know exactly how it all worked out but it did.  A couple of months later they filed bankruptcy.  Blind luck seems to play a big part in those sort of things.

[yarnammurt]

It was a letter from logmaster not a BR court. I have sent them an email last night to see if there is any way I can get my mill. It should be ready so I don't understand why I can't get it. I saw a post on here where Herman from LM delivered a mill on the 11th of this month so I really don't understand. The letter said chapter 7.

[Rockn H]

I'd have to go with Slawyer on this.  I financed my own cars and also did recovery work for banks and financial companies back in the day.   If you haven't been notified by either a court or their lawyer by letter that they have filed bankruptcy, I'd go talk to them in person to try and recover the $8000 or a mill.  I see you're in South Arkansas.  I'm in South East Arkansas and Nacogdoches is only about 3 1/2 hours from me.  I'd have to go down first thing next week.... with a smile and an open mind.    I might even take cash instead of a check.   

[thecfarm]

I think the bank will hold the check,just because it's from out of state, for 10 business days? Policies are diffeant from state to state,bank to bank too.

[rmack]

Would/could end up in handcuffs if loading out stuff, which would add more sting than already are feeling.

What is the cultural difference?

I was taught to stand up for myself when someone was trying to bully me.

If you read subsequent posts, by people who actually know what they are talking about, then you would realize that you (like the rest of us) have a lot to learn about life.  :D

I knew a man whose mill went bankrupt back in the 1980's, and I realize that bankruptcy laws vary by jurisdiction, but he walked away a millionaire and his business contacts got their $. the bank took a bit of a beating, but that's the way it goes.

bottom line, in this case, it looks like the biz going bankrupt is ultimately a person, he may well go the extra mile to maintain a good name, at least personally.

show up with a trailer and try make a deal for whatever is still left of any value. maybe they have new engines, hydraulic components, whatever... there's a good chance there is probably something still there you can make a deal on.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

When a company goes bankrupt and I'm sure they have debt....nothing can be touched.
There becomes a fine line between what's right and what's wrong.
The best advice is to speak to a bankruptcy attorney for advice. If your name is on Logmasters books as you being owed something, there is a chance you may get a reimbursement of some kind.....you have to let the law take its course and its possible it may take years depending on the companies situation.
But to take a trailer and show up trying to play "Let's Make a Deal" or "The Price is Right"
may put you in "Jeopardy".  :D

[Jeff]

But to take a trailer and show up trying to play "Let's Make a Deal" or "The Price is Right"
may put you in "Jeopardy".  :D

You ain't a kidding, and especially if the IRS is involved, because I think they get paid if there are back taxes before any banks. No matter how good the intentions on either side on this lets make a deal idea, you may find yourself as an unwitting accessory to a crime. Being out the cash is bad enough, sitting behind bars and stewing about it seems it would have to be worse. Add that to the idea of learning things about life.

[SLawyer Dave]

Under Federal Bankruptcy law there is a "priority of debts" schedule that allocates what classes of debts get paid and in what order.  Typically, the Non-priority, unsecured debts are right at the bottom, and the last to get paid.  If, Logmaster took his old mill in trade, and still has possession of it, then he may very well have a priority claim still remaining to that mill, (he still technically owns it).  So there would be a good chance that it would be returned to him by the Bankruptcy trustee, (if he files the Creditor Claim and his mill can be identified).  If Logmaster did sell his used mill, however, then he would be most likely a non-priority, unsecured creditor.  That is why I suggest he sees what he can negotiate with them now.

Another complicating factor, if Logmaster does file bankruptcy, then the trustee could potentially try to reclaim the money that you were just refunded as a "preferential payment" to a creditor.  However, I am not so sure that such an effort would be successful, given that they were simply returning your "deposit" to you, since they never earned it.  If you do get a notice from the trustee telling you to return the funds, immediately seek an experienced bankruptcy attorney to help you fight that.  The trustee wants control of the money, because even if he ends up returning it to you, he will take a 25% fee for his "services".

[Texas Ranger]

Hate to hear that, they or 75 miles north of me, and seemed to have a good product, too cheap per unit was my feeling.  I bet there is more to it, original ownersip dropped out and new bunch let it go.  Just a guess, have seen a bit of that around here, lately.

[reswire]

I've had more than one person file bankruptcy :embarassed:, while owing me money.  In short, there is nothing you can do but attend the bankruptcy hearing and watch your money disappear.  They probably owe far more than they are worth(as a financial institution), and the smaller the bill owed, the further down the list " to get paid".  Just the facts.  Sorry, but it's true.

[rmack]

But to take a trailer and show up trying to play "Let's Make a Deal" or "The Price is Right"
may put you in "Jeopardy".  :D

You ain't a kidding, and especially if the IRS is involved, because I think they get paid if there are back taxes before any banks. No matter how good the intentions on either side on this lets make a deal idea, you may find yourself as an unwitting accessory to a crime. Being out the cash is bad enough, sitting behind bars and stewing about it seems it would have to be worse. Add that to the idea of learning things about life.

you could always re-read posts 27, 31 and then read post 36. something clearly hasn't registered.

[Jeff]

I sure hope that was not to be meant as a dig at my intelligence. You already were border line in a comment to another member but stuck a little smiley in there to try and counteract your remark, but it did not go unnoticed by me.   I know how to read. I know how to read between the lines too. Been doing it for a long time here. Now Is this post registering?

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I never thought about the IRS being involved in this. Very good point Boss.
If they have a dog in this fight....all bets are off.

[rmack]

I sure hope that was not to be meant as a dig at my intelligence. You already were border line in a comment to another member but stuck a little smiley in there to try and counteract your remark, but it did not go unnoticed by me.   I know how to read. I know how to read between the lines too. Been doing it for a long time here. Now Is this post registering?

fine, forget what the lawyer and the repo man have to say... you are the expert. 

[Jeff]

That is the 3rd time in this topic you have went after the poster, and not the post. Your big mistake was to do it with the owner of the forum. You get a recess to begin with. Your disrespect to those that didn't share your view has earned you that, not the fact that you had a different opinion.

[fuzzybear]

Ok major talk and opinions over a topic that NO ONE knows the true facts about....no offense but there sure are  a lot of future politicians weighing in on this.
   I'm sorry you are out the money. But as it was suggested, go to them directly with an OPEN mind. Talk to them and see if there is a solution.  It never helps to go into a situation you know next to nothing about and start quoting what others have told you.  Every situation is unique, what worked for one does not always work for others.
  If that fails then get a lawyer and see from there.
  I wish you luck in this. 
FB

[Dave Shepard]

I'm sorry to hear of your trouble. I hope you can get it straightened out. No way to really know what is going on until you can get through to them.

Too bad that LM had to go out of business. There have been a lot of happy LM owners on here.

[dboyt]

Not to marginalize your loss, and I hope they can make things right for you.  It's the good people who work there that found out they're out of a job that I really feel sorry for.  That's a tough blow any time of the year!

[thecfarm]

We had a small business in a small town about a ½ from here. I knew the plant manager. They went bankrupt too. The owner used the business for a piggy bank. He kept taking money out,but never put any back in.

[yarnammurt]

Well never got in touch with them. I did get in touch with the money man. The $13,000 is all I will be getting. But I guess that is better than nothing. The guy told me that there is nothing to get from them it has all been seized. So I am just out. I am headed out to AZ in the morning 1200 miles to pick up a ATS Peterson.

[scully]

I am so saddened to here of all this ! On the up side it sounds like there are some very smart guys here giveing you great advice . I will echo everyone else with my well wish's for a good resolve to your loss . More over try and stay to the positive and think about how fantastic it will be when you get regrouped and find another good mill ! Ya gotta get a mill ! I know when I have been faced with what seemed like an impossable  situation persistance and faith have come through for me with flying colors many times  . Take care and be well man !

[Ianab]

The Peterson will be different to operate if you are used to a band mill, but they are a very versatile machine, and one of the higher production machines for the price. At least you will be back sawing again, with a decent machine.

Ian

[Red Good]

Well that sucks , was hoping for a better outcome for you .

[schmism]

Well never got in touch with them. I did get in touch with the money man.

Did you file a claim for your 8K?   I would at least do that.   Even if you dont get anything out of it your on record saying they owe you.

[Ron Wenrich]

In the past couple of years, I've been involved in a couple of bankruptcies.  One was MF Global.  That one cost me money for an attorney, and I had to file papers.  I got most of my money, and it took a long time. 

The other was on a consulting job.  I provided services, and the company went into receivership.  I put in my bill.  It was a month or two, but I was paid in full.  I didn't use an attorney for that one, but I had a little more leverage on that one. 

The point is, you have to file something or you'll be out completely.  Receivership means they'll be liquidating their assets and paying claims.  Might as well get in line.

[NMFP]

As Ron said, you need to fill out the papers.

Sometimes when a company files bankruptcy, it isnt the companies fault, marketing, product line but rather, a poor supplier or a customer that failed to pay.  I just ran into this situation.

A customer of mine called and needed strips for restaurant chain remodel.  I quoted, received the order, cut and delivered the order for a total invoice of $18316.00     Terms were 40% down, balance in 30 days.  30 days came and went, called and no one answered.  Called many times and even called people in the same town to check up on them and no one was around.

Turns out the restaurant chain decided to start remodeling resturants without proper permits, in turn were stopped from that so they decided to stop payment on the millwork and lumber so inturn.... ran my customer out of business (the millwork guys) and I did not get paid and by process of the system, no one was allowed to speak to each other.

Fortunately, I should be receiving money but it will be a little at a time and who knows how long it will take to pay off the invoice, interest, fees and so on.  Luckily I have other sources for income but if not, I would have to follow the same path when inturn, I would have been the victim.

The restaurant chain is nationally known and not fly by night.  None of us in the process saw this potential disaster on the horizon.

Long story short, Businesses go out of business for bad management, bad ideas, lawsuits and so on but sometimes, businesses are the victims as well. 

Just think of an order that you sort of broke even on and didnt make much money, and then the company says that you will not get paid because they are going out of business.  Very touch to take as well.  Its one thing to go out for bad management, but its another to go out by due process without you haveing any control.

[chain]

Yarn, if you could find this book, "One Man with Courage", the story of Wayne Crytes, who lost his entire soybean crop to bankruptcy. Wayne was a sort of folk hero for what he attempted but lost. One of the grain facilities was within a half-hour of my home, it was here Wayne told the authorities he was coming to get his soybeans, come h--l or high water.

The law does not understand sympathies or stress feelings of men trying to make a living supporting their families. Often, the law follows those with power, money, and the best most experienced attorneys.

Best of luck to you!

[mikeb1079]

Often, the law follows those with power, money, and the best most experienced attorneys.

now there's a hard truth.   

[highleadtimber16]

yarnammurt, I hate to hear about your loss and frustration. The Petersons are good mills and I'm sure you'll love it. *stuff happens, and it could've been worse. You've probably heard that a couple of times in the last week  :D Cut your losses make your money back and keep on pluggin away. Sometimes it's not worth the frustration and time to chase lost money. Just my advice.  Good luck!

[Will_Johnson]

This is surely a shame for all involved: the company, the employees and the folks who had mills on order.

We have gotten several calls over the last few days from folks who had Logmaster mills on order. We are trying to work with them to get their mills expedited and also doing a little something on the deal to repair any lingering bitterness to the industry in general.

Yarnammurt looks like you've gotten a Petersen -- which is a shift of gears if there ever was one! But good for you for dusting yourself off and going forward.

But anyone else who's at loose ends due to this sudden change with Logmaster and had TimberKing on their short list please feel free to contact us and we will do everything we can to hopefully help give your story a happy ending.

[Nomad]

     For anybody involved this has to really suck.  Will, that's doing a great job of stepping up to bat.  Thank You. 8)

[Kingcha]

Is it me or did some not read your first post.   Sorry to hear about your situation.   As I read it, you traded in your mill towards a new one as a down payment(did you have to send money too?).   They then sold your mill and are now sending you a check for what???    I am assuming what they got for it.  But your out a mill and now need to buy one.    That does suck.  Still the company must be trying or they would not even have sent you a check.    No winners here.   Sound like a few have given you some good advice to follow and I wish you well.

Matt

[barbender]

My understanding was that he traded his mill and the $13K to boot on a new one, so he was getting a new mill that cost $21K. They just sent back the $13K and his mill is gone, which for Yarnamurt's purposes is about the same as having it stolen >:( At least they sent you back the $13K, that could have disappeared as well. Makes a guy think it would be prudent to set up an escrow account or something when dealing with someone requiring a prepayment, so you have some recourse in this type of scenario.

[Sawdust Lover]

This is surely a shame for all involved: the company, the employees and the folks who had mills on order.

We have gotten several calls over the last few days from folks who had Logmaster mills on order. We are trying to work with them to get their mills expedited and also doing a little something on the deal to repair any lingering bitterness to the industry in general.

Yarnammurt looks like you've gotten a Petersen -- which is a shift of gears if there ever was one! But good for you for dusting yourself off and going forward.

But anyone else who's at loose ends due to this sudden change with Logmaster and had TimberKing on their short list please feel free to contact us and we will do everything we can to hopefully help give your story a happy ending.

Another reason why I own a Timberking!

[dgdrls]

I see "on-line" LM was Liquidated in Auction today.

Darn shame,

DGDrls