planer or jointer or both

[OneWithWood]

I am closing in on completing a run of 6,000 bdft of bigtooth aspen dimension lumber to be used for buidling my saw barn.  This is the first large run I have sawn on my mill and my learning curve has been just that.  Curved.  More pieces than I care to admit to have thick ends or thick middles due to the stresses in the logs.  (I hope to add some pics to the wannabe post so you can see what I had to work with - but that is a whole nuther story).  I am air drying the lumber so while it dries I am looking for ways to size the lumber for use.  My first thought was now would be a good time to invest in the planer I know I will need eventually.  I also plan on acquiring a jointer eventually.
I checked the knowledge base for guidance but there as yet is nothing there regarding planers and jointers so maybe this thread will provide some useful information.
What should I be looking for?  Will one machine be able to square up and dress the lumber?  What pointers do the experienced carpenters on this forum have to offer?
On average I would say the worst boards tend to vary about 1/8 to 1/4 inch from end to middle.  I measured the logs to be 4 inches longer so I will be trimming the ends.
My long term goal is to be producing finished hardwood and specialty lumber.  The dimension lumber I am currently working on is strictly to build the barn and eradicate some lesser quality trees.  So any equipment needs to be able to handle the longer term goals as well as the short term necessity.
TIA for what I know will be excellent advice

[Buzz-sawyer]

OWW
If I understand correctly you have framing lumber that is  only off a max of .25''  and that is the worst of it...and are air drying it to build s saw shed....(I own a sawmill and have been a carpenter since 1984)
First
use the limber green it will nail much easier and twist much less than if allowed to dry....you may still want to invest in an air nailer for your job alone it would pay for itself....
second
, dont worry about the 1/4 dip in your boards ....nearly every shed barn and chicken coop is off by that much, not to mention the $500000 house projects I have walked onto and sub contracted (and had to re true!)
It is acceptable to be off that much, and will in no way be noticed by anyone but you, though it will probably agrevate you that you did not do a perfect job...(from the sounds of your post) :D :D ;)

P.S Have ya seen the dog legs home depot or lowes sells for $2-3 and calls framing studs....I think you got a leg up on em!

[Fla._Deadheader]

OWW, ya ever heard of the "Rustic" look??? ;D ;D ;D

[Hokiemill]

OWW,

I'm not a carpenter but I would have to agree with Buzz-sawyer when it comes to framing lumber.

Now, if you want to build some furniture one day then you'll need the planer and the jointer.  A planer doesn't make boards flat.  Planers make one side of a board parallel to the opposite side of the board.  A planer will help to take cup out of a board if you run it through a few times and flip the board, but if your board is bowed and you run it through the planer you end up with a smooth, bowed, board.  

The jointer, on the other hand is the tool you use to make a board flat on one side.  It will not necessarily make two sides of board parallel to each other.  You can flatten both faces of a board on a jointer but have 1/2" thickness one end and 3/4" thickness at the other end - not parallel.

So, when I mill boards for a piece of furniture, my work sequence is as follows:
cut the board to rough length
face joint one side on the jointer
edge joint one edge on the jointer (with jointed face against fence)
plane to desired thickness (with jointed face opposite of blades)
rip to final width
crosscut to final length
sometimes edge joint the edge that I ripped on the tablesaw

There it is - a bunch of information completely unrelated to your question.  But it makes me feel important ;D

[Den Socling]

Hokiemill,

Good post.  ;)

Den

[iain]

hokie's machining sequence is spot on
if i had the space in my work shop id have jointer and seperate thicknesser
ive got a wadkin 24"planer/thicknesser (24"through 26"over the top) but you have to slide the out feed table back a couple of inchs for thicknessing, this is to allow for chip and any bits that detach from the wood to be ejected safely
 but its always just slightly out when you slide it forward again only a few thou but enough when your glueing long stuff to need adjusting (30secs max)

[OneWithWood]

Hokiemill that is exactly the information I am looking for.  Now if someone would add to it information on what to look for in a good jointer and a good planer the information will be complete.  Then I will figure out how to add this info to the kb.

Buzz - you are right about the aggravation part - sure is tough to go through life as a perfectionist when my skills hardly measure up  ??? ??? : >:( :P - oh the hell with it  :D ;D

Fla - believe me the barn will look rustic  ;D

[woodmills1]

When I make dimension lumber for my own use it depends on what I am going to make.  If it is a shed or such I don't worry about the studs but will resize the roof rafters to make them eiser to cut the angles and birdsmouths true.  For the resizing I do only the width and not the thickness.  I do this on the mill with a sharp blade.  Taking a light pass on one edge with the "bow" up.  The a pass at a constant(3.5, 5.5, etc) on the other side.

For 2 by studs that will have finished on both sides, like siding and sheet rock, It is more work, especially if there will be commercial windows or doors.  I do the above resizing if they a really off or have many different widths, but only to one side.  I then put that side through the jointer, then pass them through the planer to the right width.  For over 6" I use the table saw as the planer wont open that wide.  This resizing is impotant ifin ya dont want to be making extra special window trim later on in the project.  I only resize the thickess on any studs or rafters that will be sistered, like at corners and around doors.     hope this helps

[JD350Cmark]

OWW,

I got a Delta jointer about 2 years ago and just got around to putting it together last week.  I do not recall the model, but I think it's a middle size in the Delta series.  I also just got a Dewalt 12" planer.  Have not used them much, but hope to in the next couple months.  Guess I can't answer you question, but thought I'd share what I bought.

[shopteacher]

Hokiemill got the sequence right, must of had a good shopteacher. ;D
  The subject of what to look for in machinery is a very broad spectrum encompassing  personal preferences as well as well built machinery.  Your application will also play a role in determining what type and make of machine you will want or need.  A jointer and planer are almost imperative to producing good flat and parallel boards for cabinetry.  The size of the equipment also has a relationship to the end product. I teach my students not to use a board over 3" in a project. All wide boards are ripped and re-glued alternating the annual rings up and down to stabilize and counter act the tendency to cup.  In that case a small jointer 6" or 8" is adequate. However, when selling hardwood, people tend to want wide boards, doesn't matter that their using them for scroll saw projects. In that case a 12", 16" or 24" jointer is much better.  The one thing about any jointer is the longer the infeed and outfeed tables the better.  As for make, I like the older heavy machines of the past. Problem with many of them is parts not being available if needed.  When buying the imports look very closely at their makeup. They may all look alike, but from looking at them at the various woodworking shows I've begun to notice some minor differences that may make one better than the other. I think the big thing with the imports is to stay with a company that has their people over there maintaining quality control and would be more likely to back their product.
   The same goes for planers, it depends on you application.  I'm not to fond of the small table top machines, but haven't had much experience with them. I would think if you were to use them regularly and run large number of bd/ft through them their life would be short. I have a 12" Oliver in my shop and a 20" in the school shop and in my barn. Both have been great machines.
    Something else you might consider is the type of knives to use.  At home I use the standard knives that come with the machines and sharpen them myself.  At school I've changed over to the dis-pose-a-blade system.  Here you have a holder and the knife is an insert. It's sharpened on both side and can be flipped to get two cutting edges on one knife. When dull throw them away and put in a new insert. Makes changing knives a snap once setup in the machine.

[Engineer]

Not to paint with too broad a brush, but there's a LOT of good jointers and planers out there, both old and new.  Depends on how much you wanna spend, and what capacity you think you'll need.

I have a 6" Sprunger jointer from the 1950's, and had a 12.5" Delta 'lunchbox' planer.  Also have an 18" Delta drum sander.  I'm getting rid of the sander, and buying a Woodmaster 4-in-1 machine, model 718 or 725 (don't know which yet).  Also have a line on an ancient (well, turn of the century at least) Berlin Machine Works Model 199 jointer.  It's 16" wide capacity, runs on a 5 horse single phase motor.  Big rusty beast, weighs a ton or tow, needs some work.  Once I get my new shop built it's movin' in.

If you know you're gonna need hardwood lumber for your own use, I'd look into a 6" or 8" jointer and one of the new Delta or DeWalt 13" planers.  Maybe even the 15" Jet, Grizzly or Delta 15" planers.  If you want old stuff - Powermatic made excellent planers, also checkout Crescent, Oliver, Northfield, and there's a lot more.

Go to //www.owwm.com spend some time, look at pictures, read some history and some of the posts there, and you'll be enlightened.   ;D

[chisel]

OWW,

I have a ww shop and I started out with a DeWalt "lunchbox" planer. While it did the job, a larger, stationary planer will run quieter and can take a much deeper cut in one pass. But it's not portable like the smaller planers. I sold the DeWalt and bought a scratch and dent Jet 15" planer from:

http://www.generalindustrialsupp.com/

If you ever get down to Nashville, it's worth checking them out if you need some ww machinery. You might call before you go though to see if they're running any specials or if they have what you're looking for.