You had to see it to believe it !

[scully]

I saw a late 2012 LT70 come in for "service" today ,I think it had right around 14-1600 hours on it . I have never seen a mill as beaten and smashed up as this one ! I don't have time to list all the things I spotted that were broken, bent , sawed into byepassed etc . I know what it took for me to finally get my mill after 20 years of dreaming ,and here I see the " top of the line" less than 2 years old just beaten to death ! There has never been even the slightest bit of matinance done on this thing ! I just don't get it ........No realy I am just dumbfounded bye it all ....

[Dave Shepard]

When I see equipment beat up like that it is usually one of two things. Either it's done by employees, or by someone with too much money to care.

[Sawdust Lover]

I've never been able to figure out how people can do that to there equipment. Maybe it fell off the back of his truck on his way to get it serviced.

[Magicman]

Dave, I suspect that you were correct about employees.  There are some, but then there are the "others".

My Son is the only person that will ever operate my sawmill as long as it is mine.

[justallan1]

That is one of the things that REALLY tick me off. I'm constantly seeing folks tearing their stuff up and just not caring. I do my best keeping the equipment here on the ranch in pretty good shape just to watch it get wrecked, out of not caring. You try to tell them the less money spent on equipment the more goes in your pocket, but I guess it's easier and more fun being broke.

Allan

[dgdrls]

Darn shame to see good machinery abused
Tells a story.

DGDrls

[Peter Drouin]

I know I have seen people run a loader and you can hear the thing squeaking from the lack of grease. :D :D :D

[boardmaker]

If an employee tears up your mill it is still your fault.  If I ever see someone abusing equipment, I correct them immediately. 

[drobertson]

Yep, it is a terrible shame,    david

[NMFP]

When I was going to college, I worked for my uncle in a car dealership where we sold brand new mercedees.  I remember we sold a car that was 93k brand new in february of the year and the gentleman that owned it traded it in the following april.  14 months of ownership.

We paid him 12k for the car back.  After over 70 hours of detail work and lots of paint work, it finally looked like a good car again.  There was not one thing inside that wasnt damaged, destroyed or missing from the car, not to mention it ran for 14 months on the original oil.  All he did was add gas and keep driving.

You would think that someone would take better care of something that costs so much, similar to a nice sawmill!

[orion388]

it's a shame but this is how it happens.

1500 hours X Average 600bdft/hour (reasonable for an LT70) = 900,000 board feet X .30/bdft (insert your own number there) = 270,000 bucks - ~70,000 (cost of machine) = 200,000 gross.
Easy enough to depreciate that machine off and start all over.
Some are just looking at the BOTTOM line and the machine enables them to get there.
Sadly after many years of working for a large company I've witnessed the change to "run to failure" ..

[Tom L]

if you add in the cost for a couple of employees at even $50 an hour with overhead,
1500 hrs would cost $150,000 plus fuel and blades,

makes you wonder if it made any money at all

[Contractor1]

"Sadly after many years of working for a large company I've witnessed the change to "run to failure"

We have had the same issues sometimes. Usually the employee says it was broke like that he got it. Or they sneak a broke piece of equipment back in the yard after hours. The guys that take care of their equipment always will and the guys that don't never will. I think I need a blood pressure pill now.

[drobertson]

"run to failure"  been awhile since I've heard this, and so true,   and often due not to a sound plan, but rather an example of poor communication and basic mechanical abilities.     david

[ST Ranch]

Lease or long term owner??? - These days in my area, I see a lot of guys in the logging side, especially the younger ones, just lease the equipment, run it 2 shifts a day and get a new one every couple years.  I see the same thing with pickups too.  Payment is so low now; guys just drive it for 2 yrs and get another one. 
They have no desire to build any equity in the iron, like my generation does/did. IMO it appears the under 45 folks are more used to use and throw away attitude. I do not know if it is that they were not taught to fix things seeing that in the past 35 years, school has been so focused on business and academic learning versus hands on creating and fixing things.
I also agree with others about owner vs. an employee. It takes time and energy to teach and motivate employees and be a good leader. 
I found that sharing in the ups and downs with the crew seemed to help.  If a machine was down, every one had to pitch in and get it fixed or take up the slack [work longer days, help with bucking when the landing was plugged, etc] and if one guy was always negligent, the crew taught them to smat'in up or hit the road. 
It is hard to be a good supervisor; to me it's about choice. Reward the crew for doing it right, and let the crew manage themselves - I do as I do with horses, consistent, kind but firm hand that asks and demonstrates how to do it, and rewards for good behavior.  I try to make it easy to do it right and hard to do it wrong.
Tom

[1woodguy]

   I know afew people who actually seem to believe that everything is disposable
They treat everything like trash including spouses
   Use ,abuse and replace
I cannot understand that way of thinking

[Peter Drouin]

Or the guy first day at work. Told to get the cat loader and load the truck. The guy jumps in and start it. The boss goes over and tells the new guy to shut it off. The new guy jumps down???. The boss tells him he's fired. He's like what. The Boss tells him he did not check the oil or grease it first. If you're that stupid I don't need you.  :D :D :D :D ;D

[NMFP]

ST Ranch: One of the issues with leasing is the fact that your not stuck with a high hour, beat up piece of equipment at the end of 10 years of payments.  A good friend of mine always thought owning equipment was the way to go until he realized that most of his equipment was now approaching 30-40 year old range and had little financial value.  Repair bills alone were more than what a lot of it was worth so he leased a new log truck and 2 skidders.  The lease was 5 years on the truck and 3 years on the skidders.  What he ended up paying in the periods was less than what he had paid to keep 30-40 year old equipment running so it was a step in the correct direction. 

To say younger people treat everything as throw away is somewhat true but please remember, we were brought into this mentality by those that are the ages ahead of us that own the companies making this stuff.  Basically said, I feel as though my generation is a victim of manufacturing run by the generations before me. 

Not all of us treat everything as throw away but we make the best decisions we can and ultimately, making money is the name of the game.

[Dave Shepard]

Or the guy first day at work. Told to get the cat loader and load the truck. The guy jumps in and start it. The boss goes over and tells the new guy to shut it off. The new guy jumps down???. The boss tells him he's fired. He's like what. The Boss tells him he did not check the oil or grease it first. If you're that stupid I don't need you.  :D :D :D :D ;D

That's a setup. I'd have words with the guy and be DanG glad I wasn't working for him any longer. Anybody who would do that isn't somebody you want to work for. If the new guy had been trained to check first and didn't, then he had an argument. How is a new hire expected to know what the boss wants? He was told to get the loader and load the truck, not service the loader. Head games are for losers.

[terry f]

   Scully, what would the value of the LT70 be when you were done servicing it? Like that Mercedes, the next guy doesn't know the history.   Spot on Dave

[reswire]

A lot of my friends who run construction companies, are going "out of business" because of the lack of qualified employees in the job market.  I taught at a technical high school for 20 years, and towards the end, the students had become more difficult to train and employ.  Today's parents will never ask their child to maintain his/her personal responsibility, and will always blame the teacher or school for their child's failures.  My parents taught me to work, enjoy the opportunity to work, and to be responsible for my actions.  Those values are now looked down upon, and made fun of by the liberal media.  It's all about lawsuits and blaming others for our mistakes.

If I had a dollar for every "smart aleck" punk who tried to bully his classmates or the teaching staff at our school, I could have retired the first year.  You may not believe me, but I am certain that over one half of the teachers at our school took some type of anxiety medication, just to cope with the stress that comes from teaching animals.   Eighty percent of the students were there to learn, but the 20 percent who came to disrupt, ruined the educational opportunities for many.  Politicians and lawyers have destroyed our future workforce by making excuses for, and pandering to the worst in our society (at every age).   America's workforce is on the steady decline, not because of immigrants or the economy, but because we have lost our moral compass as a family unit, and together as a nation.   My grandparents and parents raised me far differently than the current generation, and for that, I am eternally grateful to them.

[ST Ranch]

NMFP – I have to disagree with you regarding leasing. Please let me explain:

IMO one can not run a machine for 10 years and not look after it.

For me, every spring [during our "breakup" period], I do my preventative maintenance [bearings, seals, build up wear points, all oils, hoses, etc] as well as any rebuilds [pumps, t- converters, finals, etc] even if they are not totally broken, but well worn.

Reasons
1] to keep the value up so that at 10 years old I have a well maintained older machine with lots of life and value remaining.
2] down time during the logging season costs money, so I want a reliable machine and minimal breakdowns.

At 8-10 years [with 15,000 hrs or so], I will sell the machine for good value, usually to someone who knows its history or wants a backup/second machine.  I do not recommend trying to do production logging with a 20 + yr old machine, but less than 10 is OK.

I also recognize that leasing is the name of the game these days.  Banks, tax laws and manufacturer financing [leasing, etc] rules are hard to refuse. It also lets new operators get a machine with little money down.  However, most guys I know who are leasing are running the machine 20 hrs a day, 6 days a week and scrambling to try to survive to make payments. ["Working for the company store" so to speak] And at the end, no equity built up.

I do agree that repairs are costly, especially if the work is done at the manufacturers shop.  You need to be a good mechanic and do most work yourself and job out to smaller machine shops, when needed. 

I also agree that new entrants into the business are faced with the controlling interests of the big manufacturers and corporations [here in BC the big forestry companies have huge control], but starting small with used iron still can work.

And yes, age is not always the determining factor.

Also, to own equipment for a longer term, you do need to have good mechanical skills, but this is true for farming, mining or any business using equipment.

Tom

[Small Slick]

I run a second generation contracting company. Far and away the toughest part is finding new (not just young) employees that are not worthless. I know it sounds harsh but it's true. I can train them to do the job and educate them on how to know and understand the work. I can't make them "think" when I'm not there I can't make them show up on Monday or work late when we need to finish a job. It's truly my opinion that in the skilled trades the company who can recruit the most guys who are younger and aren't awful will probably make it. It's sad I've been in this business for about 20 years and all my best guys started with my dad 16 or more years ago.

John

[mikeb1079]

i fear i'm sailing into stormy seas but here goes...

America's workforce is on the steady decline, not because of immigrants or the economy, but because we have lost our moral compass as a family unit, and together as a nation.

i respectfully disagree, and i think we need to be careful here. it seems to me that there's a human tendency to feel that the times gone by were better and/or simpler and in some cases that may be true but i'd ask this:  where was our moral compass when we wouldn't allow women the right to vote?  when we wouldn't allow people of color to sit at the table with us?  when a gay person had to fear for her/his safety if their sexuality became known?  these things are no longer acceptable today and for good reason.  there are countless examples of things/conditions that are better now than they were.  tho certainly not all.   ;)

in response to the point about the generational change in attitudes towards work i tend to feel that it's more related to the change from a manufacturing/farming based economy to a service economy.  i know that's an oversimplification but it's a complex issue.

i apologize for the thread hijack, but i don't buy the moral compass argument. 

[marcusthgault]

I agree with most of the content in most of the posts above.
Having worked as a glorified foreman/supervisor for 20+ years I despair at my inability to inculcuate good work practices and machine operation.
Being a Local Government operation, my staff know they are virtually unsackable.
So why should they bother changing their habits.
This attitude is reflected across our wider Society, no need to fear failure, the State will always provide.
Basic reverse Darwinism at work.
Todays workplace has also become much more technical, to the point that the lower 20%, (at a guess) are unemployable as everything is now so mechanised, and requires smarts to operate.
PS
Re the Cat logger story, a local agric contractor in the local area regularly took on seasonal tractor driving staff (for drawing sliage) for the busy summer period.
He briefed them thoroughly on the need to ALWAYS check the oil and coolant first thing every morning, then sent them to their designated tractors.
Any staff who came back looking for the tractor keys were shown the gate.
Reason:
The tractor keys were hung around the dipstick.
All he wanted was staff who would LISTEN, then they might learn.
m

[Peter Drouin]

Or the guy first day at work. Told to get the cat loader and load the truck. The guy jumps in and start it. The boss goes over and tells the new guy to shut it off. The new guy jumps down???. The boss tells him he's fired. He's like what. The Boss tells him he did not check the oil or grease it first. If you're that stupid I don't need you.  :D :D :D :D ;D

That's a setup. I'd have words with the guy and be DanG glad I wasn't working for him any longer. Anybody who would do that isn't somebody you want to work for. If the new guy had been trained to check first and didn't, then he had an argument. How is a new hire expected to know what the boss wants? He was told to get the loader and load the truck, not service the loader. Head games are for losers.

All he had to do Dave is ask [Do you want me to check the oil first] that tells the boss, he thinking  the same when a man works for you. If you have to tell him what to do all the time and when he's done, he stops and stands there and waits for you to tell him what to do next I don't need him. But when you have a guy finds things to do after he's done the job you gave him. He's a keeper. I have had 20+ men work for me at a time. Over the years I know who will make you money and who will lose you money 

[NMFP]

ST Ranch, I agree with some of what you have said.  The issue that arises is that manufacturers are only required to offer parts for 7 years.  I know first hand how this goes as I deal with it on a daily basis.  Not easy to buy parts for a machine that's 10 years old often times! And because there aren't many machines to begin with, no one offers aftermarket so where do you buy parts?

The company I used to work for leased all of their trucks and a good portion of the equipment and we had ALOT of equity in product, facility and non leased products.  The trucks were leased because they were unlimited mileage, we did not pay out of pocket for repairs, if we needed a major repair, that was covered and they provided a rental truck for us for free.  When you need to run lumber 5-6 days a week up to 400 miles each way, you need reliability.  Also, we did not need to have a mechanic on site for repairs.  As for manufacturing equipment, it was nice to not have moulders with outdated technology as speed and proficiency makes money.

I currently lease 3 pieces of equipment because I only need them for a few years to do certain jobs.  Once the jobs are done, the equipment goes back and I am not stuck with liquidating equipment that may or may not be needed.  There are numerous heavy equipment operations around here selling used equipment and they don't want equipment older than 8 years because of wear and replacement of parts and reliability. 

Currently, where I work, we lease a lot of heavy construction equipment as its less expensive to lease and turn in than to own and repair.  With some of todays technology, you don't want that long term as many times, we have had machines that work great for a few years but you see a lot of problems with them later on as electrical components wear out. 

Leasing isn't for everyone but please don't attack a generation and accuse us of being a throw away society. 

If leasing works for some applications, let it alone and let those that lease keep moving and making money.

[GDinMaine]

My parents taught me to work, enjoy the opportunity to work, and to be responsible for my actions.  Those values are now looked down upon, and made fun of by the liberal media.  It's all about lawsuits and blaming others for our mistakes.

I'm so glad you let us know who is responsible for the troubles of this country.

Eighty percent of the students were there to learn, but the 20 percent who came to disrupt, ruined the educational opportunities for many.

...and... that 20 percent went on to join the liberal media?

[Magicman]

We have not necessarily "upgraded" our moral standards.  We have gradually "learned" to accept and tolerate lower moral standards.  Yes, we have a few that have and uphold high work ethics as well as moral ethics, but I see too many that have very little of either.

[NMFP]

Exactly.  I teach in a college where we teach hands on training in forestry.  Its very rewarding to see the students we do have with a good work ethic.  There are some though that do not.  I do not bend to their way and they don't conform to my way but rather, we know what needs to be done and just do it. 

I can say though as a whole, kids today are wired differently than they were years ago.  What they expect now is not what I expected 15 years ago.  This is an example of how our political system operates.  A battle of old and a battle of new, not between parties only but also within the parties.  Some change is good but change just for the sake of change proves nothing.  Also, doing the same thing over and over with the same results that are deficient proves nothing as well.

[submarinesailor]

Twenty odd years ago I worked for a division within Halliburton that performed Predictive Maintenance for the power and food industry.  So I attended a lot of training seminars and conferences to develop and improve my skills in vibration analysis, infrared thermography and oil analysis.  One of the things that kept coming out was that it was (back then) 326% more expensive to run to failure then to do preventive and predictive maintenance.  This number varied a little between industry, but for the most part it was a good number from M&M Mars to Duke power to dog food companies to small and large steel plants.  I remember the number will because I can't tell you how may times we heard that it was too expensive to do any type of maintenance.  The number of Superintends and General Foreman who believed that maintenance of any type was too expensive was astonishing.  Amtrak was one of the non-believers until I proved to them how valuable an infrared camera could be.  I told them that I could look at the exhaust manifold and tell them which cylinder had a fowled injector by the temperature.  The exhaust from a fowled cylinder runs about 50 degrees hotter and you can pick it up with an infrared camera/senor.  The good news, I was right on.  And they still didn't buy a camera or service from us.

As for beating stuff to death, I have never seen anything like what was done to equipment in some of the steel plants.  Man did they know how to break stuff.  Sometimes on purpose so they could get the day off.

I also remember reading somewhere that the number was close, 323%, for the construction industry.  Build it right or it cost 323% more to go in and fix it right.

Bruce

[scully]

Wow great response here ! First of I think this is a family owned mill . My personal experiance with WM mills is that given resonable care and matinance they last and cut for ever ! I don't think there is any part of most LT 40's that can't be replaced or repaired . And even in full on resto cases the end result is a mill that cuts like the day it was new ! This mill too can be brought back into original condition at what I am sure will be great expense . But why ? The things I saw on this machine defy explanation ! It is obvious that there is no pride of ownership let alone concern for the quality of product being produced ! Yes the allignment was non-exsistant . I do not understand how someone can make an investment like that and in short order have a machine that is heavily damaged not performing as desighned ,and force it to work anyway. It's like not being able to see the forest because there are to many trees in the way !

[backwoods sawyer]

"But why?"
There is the question.
Sounds about like the condition my mill was in when i picked it up in PA. had to load it on a trailer to get it back across the country, hitch was mangled no wheels, carriage would not move without tripping over load, cut wires dangling, radiator on the ground crumpled, all guards missing, a dozen welds looked they were done from about three feet away just kind of globed on. Why? He replaced sawmills every few years refused to pay woodmizer prices for parts and just cobbled it together until it would not run any more.
I spent considerable money the first year getting it back to woodmizer specs, and each year since maintenance cost have gone down, and the condition of the mill improved
Keeping a piece of machinery in good working order was ingrained in me years ago, spent a dozen years using and maintaining older military equipment in top condition.

The production mill I worked in was the first fully computerized mill in the world, built in 78, the owner kept a staff of top electrical and mechanical engineers some with prior NASA experience along with a full machine shop to support the barker, block saw, sawmill, kilns, planer and veneer plant operations. The mindset was to develop up grades in house that made fast, accurate, and efficient operations, and maintain what was there in top condition and always develop ways of improving on the operation.

New owner bought the whole operation fired all the engineers and over half the mill wrights along with the "oiler" and out sourced all upgrades to the plant with "Off the shelf" "through away" replacement equipment that gets changed out every few years.

Interesting thing about it was both families had been running big production mills in the county since 1951 (lot of mills in the county got their start between 1950 and 1952) but both took different paths over the years.

[pine]

We have not necessarily "upgraded" our moral standards.  We have gradually "learned" to accept and tolerate lower moral standards.  Yes, we have a few that have and uphold high work ethics as well as moral ethics, but I see too many that have very little of either.

Well said!!!

In addition the disdain that is held by many for those that still have moral standards is significant. 
There is a lack of understanding that if you are going to work for a company, they pay your salary/work hours then you comply with the company rules and regulations.  As long as those rules and regulations do not put you personally at risk or professionally at risk you comply because they pay your paycheck.  Else go find another place to work.

[thecfarm]

I use to work in a factory. Lots of safety
stuff,OSHA,LOTO,checklists,paperwork. But as I use to tell my fellow workers that complained and did not do it,The company PAYS you to do it.

[Ianab]

Thing about running equipment "until it die" is that AS it's dying, it's probably not working very well.  For a simple example, if you don't maintain your Chainsaw, it doesn't work very well. It cuts slower, and if you don't keep it in tune, it blows up totally.

Same with a sawmill. You keep it tuned, lubricated and repaired, and it works properly. Neglect it, and it just gets frustrating.

Ian

[Peter Drouin]

Thing about running equipment "until it die" is that AS it's dying, it's probably not working very well.  For a simple example, if you don't maintain your Chainsaw, it doesn't work very well. It cuts slower, and if you don't keep it in tune, it blows up totally.

Same with a sawmill. You keep it tuned, lubricated and repaired, and it works properly. Neglect it, and it just gets frustrating.

Ian

[sawguy21]

I love good machinery and hate to see a piece driven into the ground due to neglect and/or abuse. I used to manage a vehicle fleet, I cringed at the way some of these guys treated the trucks. I told them that outside the helicopter your pick up is the most expensive piece of equipment you have to deal with. Look after it and it will serve you faithfully. Some never got it, if it breaks YOU (meaning me) deal with it and get us another one. They seemed to think the bank account was bottomless. Senior management didn't take it seriously either, hiball production was the name of the game. Not surprisingly, the company went under.

[Verticaltrx]

I'm 29yrs old, so I guess I fit in the millennial generation. I have to say for the most part I'm embarrassed to be associated with this group. I just can't believe how little most people care about anything except their smartphones, facebook, and other crap like that. I am a contractor, farmer, and homesteader with my wife. I have a lot of pride of ownership in everything I own because I worked hard to get it (paying cash nonetheless) and know that it won't serve me well if I don't take care of it.

I am looking at expanding my farming operations more and cutting back on the construction side of things because finding good help is nearly impossible. At this point if I want to grow the construction business I need more help. My brother helps me from time to time now, but finding a good full-time employee is something I just don't want to be faced with. I market my construction as being 'premium quality craftsmanship' and there are very few people out there that care enough to do this kind of work.

As to the original topic of this thread, I see things like that all the time, both on the farming and construction side of things. People just don't care about anything anymore, just throw it away and go into debt to get a new one. Some of my equipment may be old, some of it is brand new, but all of it is washed, serviced and repaired with OEM parts on a regular basis. I buy things that suit me well and plan to keep them as long as I can get parts for them.

[Billbob]

We have not necessarily "upgraded" our moral standards.  We have gradually "learned" to accept and tolerate lower moral standards.

Exactly!  Once we start accepting the lowering of standards it is pretty hard to stop the downhill slide.

[Tom King]

I'm still using tools I bought in 1973 along with all the others I've bought since then, and been driving the same truck for 13 years.  I think my newest chainsaw was bought in 1999, but it has had a few cylinders and other parts put on since then.  I like to make one payment, and see how long I can get it to last.