You had to see it to believe it !

[scully]

I saw a late 2012 LT70 come in for "service" today ,I think it had right around 14-1600 hours on it . I have never seen a mill as beaten and smashed up as this one ! I don't have time to list all the things I spotted that were broken, bent , sawed into byepassed etc . I know what it took for me to finally get my mill after 20 years of dreaming ,and here I see the " top of the line" less than 2 years old just beaten to death ! There has never been even the slightest bit of matinance done on this thing ! I just don't get it ........No realy I am just dumbfounded bye it all ....

[Dave Shepard]

When I see equipment beat up like that it is usually one of two things. Either it's done by employees, or by someone with too much money to care.

[Sawdust Lover]

I've never been able to figure out how people can do that to there equipment. Maybe it fell off the back of his truck on his way to get it serviced.

[Magicman]

Dave, I suspect that you were correct about employees.  There are some, but then there are the "others".

My Son is the only person that will ever operate my sawmill as long as it is mine.

[justallan1]

That is one of the things that REALLY tick me off. I'm constantly seeing folks tearing their stuff up and just not caring. I do my best keeping the equipment here on the ranch in pretty good shape just to watch it get wrecked, out of not caring. You try to tell them the less money spent on equipment the more goes in your pocket, but I guess it's easier and more fun being broke.

Allan

[dgdrls]

Darn shame to see good machinery abused
Tells a story.

DGDrls

[Peter Drouin]

I know I have seen people run a loader and you can hear the thing squeaking from the lack of grease. :D :D :D

[boardmaker]

If an employee tears up your mill it is still your fault.  If I ever see someone abusing equipment, I correct them immediately. 

[drobertson]

Yep, it is a terrible shame,    david

[NMFP]

When I was going to college, I worked for my uncle in a car dealership where we sold brand new mercedees.  I remember we sold a car that was 93k brand new in february of the year and the gentleman that owned it traded it in the following april.  14 months of ownership.

We paid him 12k for the car back.  After over 70 hours of detail work and lots of paint work, it finally looked like a good car again.  There was not one thing inside that wasnt damaged, destroyed or missing from the car, not to mention it ran for 14 months on the original oil.  All he did was add gas and keep driving.

You would think that someone would take better care of something that costs so much, similar to a nice sawmill!

[orion388]

it's a shame but this is how it happens.

1500 hours X Average 600bdft/hour (reasonable for an LT70) = 900,000 board feet X .30/bdft (insert your own number there) = 270,000 bucks - ~70,000 (cost of machine) = 200,000 gross.
Easy enough to depreciate that machine off and start all over.
Some are just looking at the BOTTOM line and the machine enables them to get there.
Sadly after many years of working for a large company I've witnessed the change to "run to failure" ..

[Tom L]

if you add in the cost for a couple of employees at even $50 an hour with overhead,
1500 hrs would cost $150,000 plus fuel and blades,

makes you wonder if it made any money at all

[Contractor1]

"Sadly after many years of working for a large company I've witnessed the change to "run to failure"

We have had the same issues sometimes. Usually the employee says it was broke like that he got it. Or they sneak a broke piece of equipment back in the yard after hours. The guys that take care of their equipment always will and the guys that don't never will. I think I need a blood pressure pill now.

[drobertson]

"run to failure"  been awhile since I've heard this, and so true,   and often due not to a sound plan, but rather an example of poor communication and basic mechanical abilities.     david

[ST Ranch]

Lease or long term owner??? - These days in my area, I see a lot of guys in the logging side, especially the younger ones, just lease the equipment, run it 2 shifts a day and get a new one every couple years.  I see the same thing with pickups too.  Payment is so low now; guys just drive it for 2 yrs and get another one. 
They have no desire to build any equity in the iron, like my generation does/did. IMO it appears the under 45 folks are more used to use and throw away attitude. I do not know if it is that they were not taught to fix things seeing that in the past 35 years, school has been so focused on business and academic learning versus hands on creating and fixing things.
I also agree with others about owner vs. an employee. It takes time and energy to teach and motivate employees and be a good leader. 
I found that sharing in the ups and downs with the crew seemed to help.  If a machine was down, every one had to pitch in and get it fixed or take up the slack [work longer days, help with bucking when the landing was plugged, etc] and if one guy was always negligent, the crew taught them to smat'in up or hit the road. 
It is hard to be a good supervisor; to me it's about choice. Reward the crew for doing it right, and let the crew manage themselves - I do as I do with horses, consistent, kind but firm hand that asks and demonstrates how to do it, and rewards for good behavior.  I try to make it easy to do it right and hard to do it wrong.
Tom

[1woodguy]

   I know afew people who actually seem to believe that everything is disposable
They treat everything like trash including spouses
   Use ,abuse and replace
I cannot understand that way of thinking

[Peter Drouin]

Or the guy first day at work. Told to get the cat loader and load the truck. The guy jumps in and start it. The boss goes over and tells the new guy to shut it off. The new guy jumps down???. The boss tells him he's fired. He's like what. The Boss tells him he did not check the oil or grease it first. If you're that stupid I don't need you.  :D :D :D :D ;D

[NMFP]

ST Ranch: One of the issues with leasing is the fact that your not stuck with a high hour, beat up piece of equipment at the end of 10 years of payments.  A good friend of mine always thought owning equipment was the way to go until he realized that most of his equipment was now approaching 30-40 year old range and had little financial value.  Repair bills alone were more than what a lot of it was worth so he leased a new log truck and 2 skidders.  The lease was 5 years on the truck and 3 years on the skidders.  What he ended up paying in the periods was less than what he had paid to keep 30-40 year old equipment running so it was a step in the correct direction. 

To say younger people treat everything as throw away is somewhat true but please remember, we were brought into this mentality by those that are the ages ahead of us that own the companies making this stuff.  Basically said, I feel as though my generation is a victim of manufacturing run by the generations before me. 

Not all of us treat everything as throw away but we make the best decisions we can and ultimately, making money is the name of the game.

[Dave Shepard]

Or the guy first day at work. Told to get the cat loader and load the truck. The guy jumps in and start it. The boss goes over and tells the new guy to shut it off. The new guy jumps down???. The boss tells him he's fired. He's like what. The Boss tells him he did not check the oil or grease it first. If you're that stupid I don't need you.  :D :D :D :D ;D

That's a setup. I'd have words with the guy and be DanG glad I wasn't working for him any longer. Anybody who would do that isn't somebody you want to work for. If the new guy had been trained to check first and didn't, then he had an argument. How is a new hire expected to know what the boss wants? He was told to get the loader and load the truck, not service the loader. Head games are for losers.

[terry f]

   Scully, what would the value of the LT70 be when you were done servicing it? Like that Mercedes, the next guy doesn't know the history.   Spot on Dave

[reswire]

A lot of my friends who run construction companies, are going "out of business" because of the lack of qualified employees in the job market.  I taught at a technical high school for 20 years, and towards the end, the students had become more difficult to train and employ.  Today's parents will never ask their child to maintain his/her personal responsibility, and will always blame the teacher or school for their child's failures.  My parents taught me to work, enjoy the opportunity to work, and to be responsible for my actions.  Those values are now looked down upon, and made fun of by the liberal media.  It's all about lawsuits and blaming others for our mistakes.

If I had a dollar for every "smart aleck" punk who tried to bully his classmates or the teaching staff at our school, I could have retired the first year.  You may not believe me, but I am certain that over one half of the teachers at our school took some type of anxiety medication, just to cope with the stress that comes from teaching animals.   Eighty percent of the students were there to learn, but the 20 percent who came to disrupt, ruined the educational opportunities for many.  Politicians and lawyers have destroyed our future workforce by making excuses for, and pandering to the worst in our society (at every age).   America's workforce is on the steady decline, not because of immigrants or the economy, but because we have lost our moral compass as a family unit, and together as a nation.   My grandparents and parents raised me far differently than the current generation, and for that, I am eternally grateful to them.

[ST Ranch]

NMFP – I have to disagree with you regarding leasing. Please let me explain:

IMO one can not run a machine for 10 years and not look after it.

For me, every spring [during our "breakup" period], I do my preventative maintenance [bearings, seals, build up wear points, all oils, hoses, etc] as well as any rebuilds [pumps, t- converters, finals, etc] even if they are not totally broken, but well worn.

Reasons
1] to keep the value up so that at 10 years old I have a well maintained older machine with lots of life and value remaining.
2] down time during the logging season costs money, so I want a reliable machine and minimal breakdowns.

At 8-10 years [with 15,000 hrs or so], I will sell the machine for good value, usually to someone who knows its history or wants a backup/second machine.  I do not recommend trying to do production logging with a 20 + yr old machine, but less than 10 is OK.

I also recognize that leasing is the name of the game these days.  Banks, tax laws and manufacturer financing [leasing, etc] rules are hard to refuse. It also lets new operators get a machine with little money down.  However, most guys I know who are leasing are running the machine 20 hrs a day, 6 days a week and scrambling to try to survive to make payments. ["Working for the company store" so to speak] And at the end, no equity built up.

I do agree that repairs are costly, especially if the work is done at the manufacturers shop.  You need to be a good mechanic and do most work yourself and job out to smaller machine shops, when needed. 

I also agree that new entrants into the business are faced with the controlling interests of the big manufacturers and corporations [here in BC the big forestry companies have huge control], but starting small with used iron still can work.

And yes, age is not always the determining factor.

Also, to own equipment for a longer term, you do need to have good mechanical skills, but this is true for farming, mining or any business using equipment.

Tom

[Small Slick]

I run a second generation contracting company. Far and away the toughest part is finding new (not just young) employees that are not worthless. I know it sounds harsh but it's true. I can train them to do the job and educate them on how to know and understand the work. I can't make them "think" when I'm not there I can't make them show up on Monday or work late when we need to finish a job. It's truly my opinion that in the skilled trades the company who can recruit the most guys who are younger and aren't awful will probably make it. It's sad I've been in this business for about 20 years and all my best guys started with my dad 16 or more years ago.

John

[mikeb1079]

i fear i'm sailing into stormy seas but here goes...

America's workforce is on the steady decline, not because of immigrants or the economy, but because we have lost our moral compass as a family unit, and together as a nation.

i respectfully disagree, and i think we need to be careful here. it seems to me that there's a human tendency to feel that the times gone by were better and/or simpler and in some cases that may be true but i'd ask this:  where was our moral compass when we wouldn't allow women the right to vote?  when we wouldn't allow people of color to sit at the table with us?  when a gay person had to fear for her/his safety if their sexuality became known?  these things are no longer acceptable today and for good reason.  there are countless examples of things/conditions that are better now than they were.  tho certainly not all.   ;)

in response to the point about the generational change in attitudes towards work i tend to feel that it's more related to the change from a manufacturing/farming based economy to a service economy.  i know that's an oversimplification but it's a complex issue.

i apologize for the thread hijack, but i don't buy the moral compass argument. 

[marcusthgault]

I agree with most of the content in most of the posts above.
Having worked as a glorified foreman/supervisor for 20+ years I despair at my inability to inculcuate good work practices and machine operation.
Being a Local Government operation, my staff know they are virtually unsackable.
So why should they bother changing their habits.
This attitude is reflected across our wider Society, no need to fear failure, the State will always provide.
Basic reverse Darwinism at work.
Todays workplace has also become much more technical, to the point that the lower 20%, (at a guess) are unemployable as everything is now so mechanised, and requires smarts to operate.
PS
Re the Cat logger story, a local agric contractor in the local area regularly took on seasonal tractor driving staff (for drawing sliage) for the busy summer period.
He briefed them thoroughly on the need to ALWAYS check the oil and coolant first thing every morning, then sent them to their designated tractors.
Any staff who came back looking for the tractor keys were shown the gate.
Reason:
The tractor keys were hung around the dipstick.
All he wanted was staff who would LISTEN, then they might learn.
m