My red oak is blue?

[sparky23]

So last summer I cut down and milled some beautiful red oak on our property to be made into flooring for our home.  They were live, big ( 30+ " )  and healthy looking so I thought this would make for some good lumber. Once we started to mill them up however, we found a lot of the wood had some major blue veins running through them, making them unsuitable for flooring. I have pulled down about 20 or 30 trees from different areas of the property ( 160 acres so they are a good distance apart ) and I've noticed it in at least 5 of them.

I'm still kinda new to the country life but I've never seen this before. It's not happening in any other species, just the red oak. It's almost as if the trees are drinking something to turn them blue. ??

Has anyone seen this before?

PS. I have pics of this on my puter but I don't know how to post them here. If someone could help me with that too...

[Al_Smith]

Blue streaks in oak usually  means it contains some metal .Could be anything,a nail .

My sawyer hit nails 20 feet up in an ash tree taken from the center of a woods .I assumed it to be the remains of an old deer stand .I've got a picture some place of a part of a nail I barely missed with both a carbide saw blade plus a planer knife .That would have really annoyed me if I hit it .

[isawlogs]

  It could also be mineral streak in the wood itself, I sawed a wack of it for a customer and he put it down for his floor, it sure came out beautifull, lots of character.   

[Jeff]

Probably old fence line in them. An oak that big has been around for generations. Blue streaks is most always indicative of iron being in the tree.

[isawlogs]

 If that was all sawed and they did not hit any metal, they should be running to buy a lottery ticket!
    ;D :D

[thecfarm]

Red oak in my area will turn blue just by having it on the bunks of your mill. 
What kind of mill do you have?
Picture help,
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,61788.0.html
Have trouble,give a shout,someone wil help.

[WDH]

Any contact with metal will turn red oak blue or black. 

[Jeff]

And if you get it on your hands, the only thing that will take it off is the grease from a good greasy bar hamburger. 

[sparky23]

Wow! I wasn't expecting so many replies overnight .  I should have stated that the amount of blue in the tree is quite substantial. It runs at least half way ( and not starting at the trunk ) and there's a lot of it.

I don't own the mill, we're using my neighbor's woodmizer 40. It is blue long before it hits the mill.

[shelbycharger400]

pictures??   Ive got some here , short pieces that is green,  forgot about them in the shed for a few years, going to saw them out.

[sparky23]

Ok so I got the pic gallery figured out.  Great vid cfarm very helpful! Here are some scraps with the blue stain on them. I never bothered to take some of the long boards to give a better example :(. Hopefully you can get the jist of it tho.


  

  

  

 

[shelbycharger400]

My firewood chunks have the same blue green,    been told its due to the chemicals used to treat oak wilt, copper sulfate,     some call the random green blue spalt.    That one is def not from metal

[Jeff]

That looks like mineral stain. Here is link to an article from Timberline Magazine and Virginia tech to help you understand it.

http://www.timberlinemag.com/articledatabase/view.asp?articleID=3080

[SLawyer Dave]

I'm going to take another tack on this stain.  If you look at the picture, the stain line is along a vertical axis, that extends through multiple growth rings and appears to be directly related to the natural expansion cracks that were present in the tree.  As such, I strongly suspect that this is not a "mineral stain", per se.  Further evidencing this is the pictures' clear indication that the stain is not coming from the bottom (roots) toward the top along the growth rings, but rather vertically down through these cracks.

I would bet that if you had the stain analyzed, you would find that the stain is actually the remnants of one of a number of species of blue-green algae.  As has been discussed in a number of threads, Oak trees very often will hold water within their trunks.  That water often times infiltrates the tree through broken branch stems, hollows in forks, etc.  Basically any injury or water catch. 

Temperature, acidity of the water, and a host of other factors will determine what types of mold, mildew and algae will grow in such mediums.  In my area, I find oak trees showing such water staining fairly common, though mostly they tend toward more "black", as mold and mildew are more prevalent.  I just fell and cut up an oak a couple of weeks ago that looked almost identical to that one, (though the staining was black).  It had the same checking pattern along the crack lines.  In that one, the "crack" the water resided in started about 8' up from the bottom of the tree, and extended up 40', right to the main trunk crotch of the canopy.  I know I delivered at least some of that wood the last couple of days.  I will have to go out and check the stack to see if I have any remaining that I can shoot a picture of.

On a side note, I think that wood could make a beautiful custom floor, (or furniture).  Talk about a unique way to bring color and an unusual pattern into your home.   You could also take some of the scraps and try them with the stain you were thinking of using.   Many times with any kind of "tinted" stain, the tint will either especially soak in, or sometimes not be able to penetrate such "stained" wood as well.  In either situation, you tend to lose the "color", and end up with darker and lighter brown and black shades depending on the stain.   My grandfather loved finding unique wood like that, (he worked at a lumber yard), and would buy such pieces to use in his wood shop where he could try to bring out those qualities.  So again, Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder.   

[Jeff]

 I'll stick with the mineral stain diagnosis.

[Ron Wenrich]

It isn't a blue stain due to metal.  I also don't go along with mineral stain.  All of what is called mineral in oak is a bacterial infection, and its generally black.  I see it most prominently in black oaks in my area.  That mineral will develop into shake. 

I have seen this color of stain in many types of oak, and they usually occur where there are major cracks, and sometimes around rot areas.  I don't know if I buy the algae stain.  The lumber that I've seen it in also is sort of brashy.  I think it has something to do with a fungal growth. 

My 2 cents.

[Jeff]

Seen it thousands of times in the mill, usually from poor sites here where black and red oak grow together. All I know is that lumber graders simply called it mineral. I think mineral is a lump all term. I'd say it almost certainly isn't from metal as well.

[WDH]

Yes, I agree.  Metal is the least of that tree's problem. 

[sparky23]

Whatever the cause, the areas with the blue stain soften the wood to the point where it falls apart in most areas much like rot. There is no visible sign of any of this pre felling. Much like Slawyer Dave, this starts about 6-8' up and contintues anywhere from 10-30' up. I should've taken more pics of the trees as they were cut but I didn't know about this forum at the time. Oh well I'm sure there will be more this summer to show off. :(

[Autocar]

We call it blue crack and find it in old mature trees and poor growing sights. See blue crack might as well go to fire wood pile it seems to always twist though the log so no matter how you lay it on the carriage you can't get a good board.

[isawlogs]

 Was that tree dead standing ??? 

[sparky23]

It was live. The irony is I tried to pick the healthiest, straightest, knot and rot free trees I could find. I did notice it only happened on the larger (24" +) trees.

[Al_Smith]

I've seen color changes from oaks growing in this area which is limestone sub strata.One hundred miles straight east in Knox county Ohio where I was born it's granite and sand stone and is a slight color difference .

Yesterday for some reason I couldn't get a picture to load of a known metal stained oak .I don't know if it's my computor ,my stupidity or the forum software .I'll give it another shot.---Well that didn't work .

[sparky23]

We do have quite a lot of limestone in the area so that could be it, but if so, why does it cause the blue stains? And why only in red oak?

[Al_Smith]

It probabley has something to do with the high content of tannin in red oak .

[sparky23]

For sale...100+ acres of nicely wooded land..lol :(  lots of nice limestone to build on!  :D

[Al_Smith]

I don't think limestone causes blue stains .Lawdy if that be the case we'ed call the local red oaks blue oaks .

[SLawyer Dave]

Disclaimer, I love a good puzzle, and I put myself through law school as a State Certified Wood Destroying Pest Inspector, so this kind of "mystery" is pretty fascinating to me, (God I lead a boring life),   :D

So I am very familiar with the various forms of "wood rot", (fungal infections), and through organic and inorganic chemistry, I think I have a pretty good idea of the types of minerals, pathogens, and enzymes that could cause such a unique color.  Then there is the mechanism of how this "stain" was delivered to the internal stress cracks of the standing, living tree.

There is a "blue fungus" that mostly infects softwood trees, (Pine is a prime example).  "Blue Pine" is very prevalent and is caused by a fungus that pretty much grows in any pine that is dead or dieing.  However, I have never seen or heard of this common condition creating that vibrant of a blue green color.  This is also called "sapwood staining", and generally spreads throughout the sapwood, not just the internal cracks as your trees indicate.  The only thing I have seen in "nature" to cause that type of bright blue-green color before is chlorophyll.  That is why I don't think it is a fungus, because the "fungus family" doesn't use chlorophyll for photosynthesis.  Similarly bacterial and mold infections would not seem a likely source of such colors.

There are a few minerals and oxidations of certain metals that could form that color, but I can't see how the mechanism for distribution would occur through such internal cracks.  While my logic can certainly be flawed, the only explanation for the distribution of the stains to me points to the stain coming from the top down, along those internal cracks due to gravity and water infiltration.  Other than chlorophyll, the most common sources of that range of colors in nature would probably be oxidation of Cobalt and Copper.  However, since these minerals would not be "sucked up" through these internal cracks, (like mineral staining coming up the cellular walls), again, the only answer that makes sense would be that the source of the stain would have to come from the top down.  So again, how did such minerals get into the top of the tree, to then oxidize and wash down into those internal cracks?  Given the difficulty of coming up with such an answer, I still believe it is chlorophyll based, which would most likely come from an algae source. 

Of coarse, I have no way to confirm this, but it is the best explanation I can come up with.     

[Ron Wenrich]

The other way of movement is through osmosis.  But, the only real active area of a tree is in the cambial layer which transports water from the ground and sugars from the chlorophyll.  Blue stain affects the sapwood.  Blue crack is in the heartwood.

Tulip poplar gets a blue or purple streaks in the wood, and I've seen it mainly associated with an injury.  Its supposed to be due to potassium in the soil.  I've seen where its hit or miss in a stand.  If it were a soil condition, I would think that all the trees would be affected, and not just a select few.  The same could be said for the blue crack stain.

If you go with logic, I've seen it associated with rot.  I guess the question would be did the rot cause the blue, or did the blue cause the rot.  Jeff indicates that its in stands on poor sites in his area.  In my area, that's not true. 

[isawlogs]

  Very interesting thread, hope it continues till the issue is resolved.  :P

[SLawyer Dave]

If you go with logic, I've seen it associated with rot.  I guess the question would be did the rot cause the blue, or did the blue cause the rot.  Jeff indicates that its in stands on poor sites in his area.  In my area, that's not true.

I can't imagine the "blue crack staining" like we are seeing in the pics, not associated with water intrusion.  Where you have water inside a tree, you will always have some amount of fungal presence.  Depending on how much moisture, and for how long it stays moist, is going to in large part decide how intrusive/severe such fungal infestations will be.  So I would anticipate these two different "issues" to be found in association with each other.  This should especially hold true if we are dealing with both an algae and fungal infestation, which both require excessive moisture conditions to be present.

[Ron Wenrich]

Algae needs light.  No light in the interior of a tree. 

[SwampDonkey]

The only blue stain I have seen in the interior of pine (white pine), usually just the sapwood,  had a mode of transport. That was by ambrosia beetles. The stained wood clearly has ambrosia bore holes. Then of course there is the airborne kind of fungi that inoculate wet pine lumber. Often times we look, but don't observe and therefore don't really see the cause. What are we not observing and not seeing in that oak? ;)



In maple you get what is called ribbon streak (edit: actually the correct name is pith fleck). In this case it is a fly larva, and the wood does not stain. The tree heals it since it is still a live tree with living cells and the scar tissue (if you will) is a brown color. This happens over many generations during the life of the tree.

[WDH]

Those ribbon streaks are common in red maple down here.

[isawlogs]

Swamp., Blue stain in white pine can be had with heat with out the beetles. One can saw pine stack it and in the sun with out the stickers and I can garanty blue stain will happen.
       ;) :-\

[Ron Wenrich]

Blue stain is so prevalent, its in the air.  That's why you can saw green lumber, and it will give you the blue stain.  Blue stain only works in sapwood, and not heartwood. 

This blue/green color is associated with heartwood, so that would exclude blue stain.  Also, the color isn't right.  In red oak, blue stain will effect the sapwood and the color is more blackish than blue. 

We get worm streaks in our soft maple.  I was always told it was ambrosia beetle.  It looks to me like they get into the cambial layer and do their dirty work.  The tree then heals it over and causes a grey streak.  You'll get the same thing in tulip poplar from the Columbia beetle, and it will give a black streak.

[isawlogs]

  I have had some bleu green stain in oak that had been sitting in the sun and heated some.

[SwampDonkey]

Swamp., Blue stain in white pine can be had with heat with out the beetles. One can saw pine stack it and in the sun with out the stickers and I can garanty blue stain will happen.
       ;) :-\

You forgot to read the part of the post about it in the air, like Ron said to. ;D

Also, how long did the pine lay stacked before it was sawed? Those little b%^% can have time to inoculate your pine while it sits for 6 weeks in a pile outside. Grandfather cut white pine one winter for mother for cupboards, when it was finally sawed the lumber turned all stained and no good for cupboards. Also an infected saw blade can spread fungus around.

The grey streak stuff in maple is ambrosia, I have some here to. It is not the ribbon streak caused by the fly. Ribbon streak is not stain, it is scar. My mistake though in the term, it is actually called pith fleck caused by phytolobia pruinosa.

[isawlogs]

 That must of got lost in translation....  :P ;D :D

[SwampDonkey]

I have stacked fresh sawn pine before, but they were cut down in the fall, sawn in May the next year. Looked nice and white when stacked, but that fungus grew all over it, had stickers, had them ambrosia to as I discovered. Wasn't the air, was the bugs that began it and then the saw spread it around good.   ;D

[SLawyer Dave]

Algae needs light.  No light in the interior of a tree.

Absolutely, which is why I referenced having an elevated water source where the algae would need to be active.  I have found numerous "voids", (water catches), often times in lost limb bases, or in the crotch of large limbs, that contain water and are exposed to light and have active algae growing in these "pools".  My thought was that as the algae dies, it settles to the bottom due to gravity.  If the water containing these dead cells (which carries the chlorophyll), wash down into these internal cracks, then so does the chlorophyll.

[Ron Wenrich]

If the water would settle out due to gravity, wouldn't the pools drain and there would be less algae?  I also don't think that water activity in a tree works in that way.  Water goes up in a tree, not down.  There is no water movement in dead xylem tubes, but the do contain water from when they died.  Otherwise we wouldn't need dry kilns. 

You would also have to figure a way to offset the theory in white oak, where the dead xylem are occluded during tyloses which makes white oak a waterproof type of wood of sorts.  That's why they use it for making whiskey barrels.

[Jeff]

I don't recall ever seeing the blue green in white oak.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm pretty sure I've seen it in white oak.  It might not be as prevalent as what's pictured, and its always associated with rot.  Growing conditions and genetics are different in my area than in yours, so that could be part of the issue.

[sparky23]

I gotta say I wasn't expecting this kind of response! I'm kind of confused tho..is there any sort of consensuses as to whether it's mold, algae, mineral stain, or limestone? I can probably get some other pics if that would help..

[SLawyer Dave]

If the water would settle out due to gravity, wouldn't the pools drain and there would be less algae? 

Its been talked about in a number of threads how many oak trees tend to "hold water" in their trunks due to voids and internal cracks.  I've seen this hundreds of times myself.  It is very common for me to cut into a living standing oak tree, and to have anywhere from a few quarts of water, to a number of gallons come running out of the tree once the chain cuts into such voids.  The point is that this water does not come from the ground up, but rather from the top down as the water is finding its way into these voids due to cracks, water catches and injuries in the tree that are allowing the water to infiltrate.  Once these voids are full of water, then a pool or standing water generally forms in the open void/water catch where the water gains entrance.  Certainly, there is going to be evaporation and a certain amount of water that is going to be absorbed into the tree, which would make the water level in these voids fluctuate, but unless these voids/cracks continue down into the roots, and ultimately to soil, then the water really doesn't have a chance to come out the bottom.  Rather, the water continues to generally be trapped in these voids. 

Given that the algae and its "bloom" is going to only exist in the area of the water receiving sunlight, the dead cells are going to naturally sink, (in this basically still water that has no outlet).  That is the mechanism of how the chlorophyll *could* be introduced to the interior of these voids and cracks.  While I have already agreed that one or more wood destroying fungus would likely be present due to this water intrusion, please note that where the water is completely filling up the void, fungus can not grow due to it needing free oxygen.   I just had a tree I fell a couple of weeks ago like that.  Gallons poured out of the tree when I cut into the void, which turned out to be a long central "crack" that ran for about 30' up the center of the tree.  Yet, while the wood was stained a very brilliant "black", there was almost no fungus or related softening of the interior wood.  The water was constrained inside that void, and due to it completely filling the void, fungus could not grow. 

I also don't think that water activity in a tree works in that way.  Water goes up in a tree, not down.  There is no water movement in dead xylem tubes, but the do contain water from when they died.  Otherwise we wouldn't need dry kilns. 

While yes, through osmosis and even wicking, I would agree with you.  We are not talking about a "biological" movement of water up the tree, however, we are talking about water intrusion through the bark/cambrian layer of the tree through either a wound, crack or other abnormality.  Once that water enters the interior of the tree, then gravity is going to reign supreme, and try to pull it down.  If that entry point, then is connected to any internal cracks or voids, then the water is going to "run downhill" into such cracks and voids.  Again, unless such cracks or voids have some sort of "outlet", then the water is going to become trapped in such voids.

You would also have to figure a way to offset the theory in white oak, where the dead xylem are occluded during tyloses which makes white oak a waterproof type of wood of sorts.  That's why they use it for making whiskey barrels.

I agree with you in principle, however, again we are not talking about a biological conduit to water or moisture as would be moving through a cellular wall, but rather simply a mechanical flow of water through physical voids and cracks within a tree.  It doesn't matter how well something is "water resistant" to penetration, when there is a physical break or void that allows water to flow through or past such barrier(s).  Think of a concrete dam.  The concrete is itself a continuous water resistant barrier through every dimension of its shape and size, but if there is a hole or crack through this material, the water will flow right through it.

For me, the issue of the water accessing the interior voids and cracks within a tree through such injuries and water catches is a very common experience.  I see it at least monthly in the oak trees I fall and cut up.  Sometimes these voids also contain a lot of fungus damage, sometimes they do not.  Most of the time, I see a dark staining associated with such water filled voids, that sometimes is a bright black to a dull almost purple.  What amazed me about these photos was the brightness and vivid color of the staining within these internal cracks.  I've never come across anything close to that color in a plant, (except chlorophyll staining), but even that was in a lab.

Again, I acknowledge that I have no way to prove this theory.  The only way to be sure would be to submit a sample of the stained wood to a lab so that a culture could be taken for both microscopic examination and chemical analysis.  However, at the same time, I can't come up with a "better" explanation that seems to fit all of the other information that we have.  So through nothing more than Occam's Razor, it would seem the best explanation I can come up with.  I'm hoping someone else may have some additional ideas or knowledge to share.

[sparky23]

I wouldn't even know how to find a lab to bring this too...any ideas as to how to start my search?

[SwampDonkey]

Got any regional Forestry Canada centres near by, like at the Saulte? I doubt any provincial DNR's will even touch it. The ones around here are just interested in growing wood and spraying bugs.

[sparky23]

Just got off the phone with them in the Sault and I'm sending same pics as well as mailing a sample piece. I'll let y'all know what the lab says!

[Jim_Rogers]

I haven't read sawyerdave post #45 but to me that stain is usually near wood that is rotting.

I consider a stain like that due to rot. The wood is usually very punky and soft around that color wood.

But, I could be 100% wrong.

Jim Rogers

[mesquite buckeye]

Some fungi are that color.

We have one that is almost the same color that grows in rotting desert ironwood trees.