Myrtle the Turtle is not happy! (Detroit 3-53 skipping)

[Dave Shepard]

Brought the TJ208 home this afternoon. Pulled off the road and started to head cross lots to get back to the farm and it started smoking, unburned fuel, and lost power. At idle, it sounds fine, except for a bit of popping in the exhaust. Talked to a couple of friends that know Detroits, and they are thinking bad injector. Anyone have this happen before?

[timberjack26]

yes thats a good start.....that sounds it to me...

[Dave Shepard]

I'm going to go out in the morning and start it cold and see which hole it is, then pull that injector. I was also told to check to see if it's getting fuel in the oil, as it could be a crossover line, but I don't think it is. Where does everybody buy Detroit parts? I'm thinking this thing needs a rebuild this summer anyway.

[logman81]

Give RCS diesel service a call, their right in ludlow Mass. They have most detroit parts in stock and also rebuild them to that's where I get my parts.

[Dave Shepard]

Is that Ron Chaisson? Last time I talked to him I had to hear about how much harder loggers work than dairy farmers. I've done both, and all I'm going to say is that trees don't drop dead if you don't milk them twice a day, seven days a week.

[logman81]

yes :D

[logman81]

I just got a grapple skidder and man i love it, and the power shift trans is awesome. hope you get it fixed quickly so you can get back at it. ;)

[Dave Shepard]

Fortunately I was done, and it happened on the way home. I've had enough logging for one season, although this last batch went petty well. I'm going out now with my IR thermometer to try and figure out which hole is dead. It doesn't look like injectors are a lot of money. Anybody rebuild their own? That would be really cheap.

[coxy]

for 50-60 bucks id buy new reman and not fiddle trying to do it my self ;D

[Dave Shepard]

I can't pinpoint a non-firing cylinder. They are all within 10° of each other. At idle, it sounds normal, with just a little bit of popping through the exhaust.

Are the injectors marked with the part number on them? I didn't see any numbers on them, but I didn't take one out. If I do injectors, I'm going to get all three. If one failed, others may not be far behind.

[treechopper40]

pull the valve cover off start it and while its running take a big screw driver and push down on the top of the injectors where the rocker arm touches it and hold it down if you have a bad injector this will tell you which one it is should have n45 injectors you also may have a broken spring on one of them that will make it skip too if you have any ??????????? s call me at 315 212 4363 I know quite a bit about them old screamers

[Dave Shepard]

I don't see any broken springs on anything. I didn't have any luck pushing down on the injector spring, I couldn't hold the screwdriver on long enough to push down. :D Thanks.

[treeslayer2003]

Dave i would change out the filters first........could also be sucking air from a line. i have seen the fuel pump drive round out. my expieriance with injectors is if they stick they gone.........never got a better running engine from just replacing them.

[timberlinetree]

No break down is good but sometimes they do break down at a good time. Glad its not 0 degrees out with snow coming down. The other day we had a tire blow out on the way home, one minute away from our shop. Good luck with the diagnosis!

[Dave Shepard]

I don't think there is any issue with fueling. I drained both housings, and the fuel was clean and no water. I fired the machine up and it ran the same as before. I opened the secondary filter and had a full stream of fuel running out. The front cylinder is lagging about 10 degrees behind the other two, so I am thinking that is the culprit. I'll have to figure out what number injectors they are. Supposed to be a disc with the number on it on the injector.

This is only half the battle. I know it has low compression from being hosed with ether, because it doesn't like to start, but runs like a champ once you get it going. I'm thinking it needs a complete overhaul, so putting in the new injectors will be the first step. When it's apart for the rebuild, I will take the head to a friend of mine to have the valves checked and machined, if needed. If I owned the skidder, I would put a 4BT Cummins in it. :D

[ozarkgem]

I had the seals on the fuel pump go out on my 353 gen set. But the symptoms were a little different. It would start and die. 

[Dave Shepard]

I went back out and puttered with it again after mowing the lawn (15 minutes with a 7' field mower ), and I was able to do the injector test. You have to brace the screwdriver against the fuel line long enough to depress the spring enough to get it below the rocker arm. #1 and #3 would kill the engine, but I could hold #2 down and no change. Does that confirm an injector failure, or could there be catastrophic piston failure and get the same result? I'm hoping I just have to put in a new set of injectors and get back up and running.

[UN Hooker]

  Just swap #2 inj. with one of the other two and see what hole is bad then. If it's still #2 hole then its not the inj.

            UN

[Dave Shepard]

Will I need to adjust the injector? I don't have a book on 53 series, only 71 series.

[John Woodworth]

If I was you in your situation, buy 3 reman injectors and put them in and hire a Detroit man to tune it, depending on the injector no. requires a guage to set it then you have to set the fuel rack, good time to set the valves as well.

[coxy]

you do not have to take the rack off to put injectors in

[Dave Shepard]

Pulled the injector out of the dead hole and whacked it with a mallet. Got nice misting pattern out of the holes. So, the injector doesn't appear to be bad. There was a bunch of stuff on the end of the injector that must have been carbon buildup. Could there be a chunk of carbon under a valve holding it open? I guess it's time to pull the head. :(

[BargeMonkey]

 Sometimes ive seen an injector fail in the body, and spray fuel before it should, making it smoke and act like a dead cylinder. Slide the old injectors out, slide the new ones in. If your rack is still set you shouldnt have to play with it. I chased a problem on my 353 for 2 yrs, come to find out it had sucked junk into the fuel elbow and thats why she would bog down at high rpm somtimes. The little things are what will get you. 4BT's are cheap, I wish I had done it with mine. Actually thinking about stuffing a 4045T in it if I keep her.

[Dave Shepard]

When I get a chance, I'll swap #2 and #3 injectors and see if the dead hole moves around. These injectors are N40's, I couldn't find anyone selling them online, only N45, N50 etc.

[treeslayer2003]

n 45s will be fine

[Dave Shepard]

I think the problem is in the valves, at this point. I don't know how else it would be popping through the exhaust. I found a place that has a complete head kit for $265. Valves, seats, guides, retainers, springs and injector tubes. I know guides are easy to change, but what about seats? Do the old seats have to be cut and the new seats fit in, or are the originals removable? Seems like a good way to have a "new" head.

[BargeMonkey]

 Depends what kinda money you wanna throw at it. I dealt with Swentons in Lake George when I did mine, the 2 stroke detroits are a special breed, and different applications took different parts, I learned the hard way. You would be worlds ahead to give them a call if your going to fix this right. I will dig up their number, but im sure others on here have it handy. They did a super job on my 353.

[whitepine2]

 53's can have cracks between the valves they are noted for this.If you have the head off good idea to have it fluxed,worth the effort ask me how I know.
Did you try changing the injectors with one you know is good how did that work or is it still popping?

[treeslayer2003]

I think the problem is in the valves, at this point. I don't know how else it would be popping through the exhaust. I found a place that has a complete head kit for $265. Valves, seats, guides, retainers, springs and injector tubes. I know guides are easy to change, but what about seats? Do the old seats have to be cut and the new seats fit in, or are the originals removable? Seems like a good way to have a "new" head.

you didn't say it was popping thru exhust before......burnt valve or eroded seat. take the head to a good shop to have the seats ground/repaired and new valves as required. make sure the exhust system don't let rain water in.

[Dave Shepard]

Brought the TJ208 home this afternoon. Pulled off the road and started to head cross lots to get back to the farm and it started smoking, unburned fuel, and lost power. At idle, it sounds fine, except for a bit of popping in the exhaust. Talked to a couple of friends that know Detroits, and they are thinking bad injector. Anyone have this happen before?

Mentioned in the first post. I'll pull the head at some point, but I have about 20k feet of white pine in the yard to mill and sticker before it stains. I have a friend that has a machine shop and has worked on Detroits, although he has more time working on 8-268 and 12v278 engine. :D I also have a friend that is helping me on this that was trained on Detroits.

[treeslayer2003]

ah, i musta forgot....gettin old lol.
if its burnt good ya get a suckin noise in the exhust note.
we ran a loader for a while with a burnt valve.....it didn't get no better or worse.
if it just a valve and the seats look good, you can put in a new valve.
make sure to adjust to spec.
injector tubes don't give much trouble in a detroit so i wouldn't spend on any kit, just fix whats wrong with it.

[Dave Shepard]

Myrtle went to the shop today. Should know what's up next week, depending on when they get into it.

[jwilly3879]

Please keep us 3-53 users informed.

[sandsawmill14]

I had a 6-71 do that one time it was the emergency stop accidently got pulled talk about being laughed by mechanic :-[ but it was an easy fix ;D

[tantoy]

Myrtle went to the shop today. Should know what's up next week, depending on when they get into it.

Wow long time you been without myrtle, Yes keep us Detroit fans updated.

[Dave Shepard]

I only had the skidder for the one job last spring, which I finished. I was actually on the way home from the last part of the job when it started skipping. I don't normally log, but it was the only way I was going to get some good pine. I'll keep this thread updated when I hear more.

[longtime lurker]

My first thought on reading this was "uh oh, spun the turbo backwards"... during transport its a good idea to stuff a rag down the exhaust as sometimes air pressure down the pipe when you're doing 60mph down the highway will spin the turbo. Bearings are dry because the motor is off so it cooks them. No blower =no scavange cycle = engine runs hot, pops, and unburnt fuel.
Rare but it does happen.

[Dave Shepard]

Myrtle doesn't have a turbo. I've done the injector test, and it's definitely not firing on No.2. Injector has good spray pattern, and the tip is intact, so it's somewhere from the head down. Hoping it's a valve, as that won't be a bad fix.

[bushmechanic]

Soooo Dave you didn't swap the injectors like UN hooker said? Or better yet install a good injector and try it? Those are unit injectors and not only do they spray the fuel they meter the amount of fuel for injection. If one is not metering right then that can give you popping in the exhaust. I have seen them go into full fuel and then there is a cloud of white smoke comming out the exhaust. I'm not saying that you don't have a burnt or dropped valve but you should have checked the injector with a good one, may have saved you a large bill.

[snowstorm]

i had a 671 yrs ago that ran good but just never sounded right. uneven at idle and different than a 671 should sound. what i found was the snap ring that holds the cam follower in had come out. i used a die grinder with a cut wheel the same with as the snap ring and re cut the grove

[Puffergas]

I should still have my 53 series manual if ya need some info..  :P

I'd hit the easy and simple and replace the injector, common problem.

I have a head off an old gama goat engine.


Marry Christmas,
Jeff    from PA

[Dave Shepard]

Thanks for the offer. I think we are going to try swapping an injector around. There was also talk of taking the engine out and having it gone through. I know it has low compression, as it starts hard in even warmish weather. Not going to do anything until after the holidays.

[Dave Shepard]

I just got a text message: Broken valve and bent rod. So, that's the answer to the burning question. :D Valve must have been intact enough to hold the spring together, or it would have come apart when I pulled the injector.

[treeslayer2003]

I just got a text message: Broken valve and bent rod. So, that's the answer to the burning question. :D Valve must have been intact enough to hold the spring together, or it would have come apart when I pulled the injector.

bent push rod or bent conecting rod?

[Dave Shepard]

Con rod, I suspect. I'll know more next week.

[treeslayer2003]

if that is the case, go over your exhaust and make sure no rain water can enter. even think about wind blown rain and irrigation.....i seen that ruin one.

[Puffergas]

I'd lean toward a bent push rod. It would take a lot to bend the con ron. Sometimes when a valve smacks the piston it can crimp the ring slots and pinch the rings. Something to check for.

:new_year:

[treeslayer2003]

I'd lean toward a bent push rod. It would take a lot to bend the con ron. Sometimes when a valve smacks the piston it can crimp the ring slots and pinch the rings. Something to check for.

:new_year:

a table spoon of water will bend a connecting rod........believe it

[Puffergas]

a table spoon of water will bend a connecting rod........believe it

OK, I thought just the valve hit the piston for some reason but what your saying is that water got in and did the original damage.. OK, that would do it big time...

[Dave Shepard]

Somebody from Swinton's came down and tore the engine apart. #2 con rod was bent. Probably got water in it at some point. The crank, camshaft and all related bearings look good, so they are going to put new liner kits in and do the head. Myrtle will be 100% again in the next day or two.

[treeslayer2003]

good deal Dave, make sure they tune it while they are there.

[Dave Shepard]

They are going to do everything, including all adjustments.

[RKH Logging]

I feel your pain. Ive played this detroit game before not fun.

[Dave Shepard]

I don't know if the skidder is out of the shop yet, they were waiting on a couple of oil lines that run under the engine somewhere. Total bill I think he said was $2800, which included three new holes, plus completely rebuilding the head, and all labor done in his shop. No crank or camshaft work was needed. I think that was pretty reasonable for on site service.

[tantoy]

Now days, 3K or so is pretty minor for any medium truck/equipment with labor from a trusted source, and a few parts in my mind.

[Dave Shepard]

That's what we thought, especially considering the travel time. I don't know how many visits it took, at least two.

[coxy]

hope you have good luck with it  ;D

[ga jones]

2800 is a good price for that done at a shop.