Another Easement Question...

Marlin · August 11, 2014, 10:00:05 PM

Hi,

I'm a descendant of a long line of loggers/farmers (Farming in the summer. Logging in the winter.) dating back to the late 1800s in MI's Upper Peninsula. So you guys in the business, please don't beat me up too bad!

I still have some of that land that was handed down to me through the generations in MI's Upper Peninsula. But I have an immediate quandary with 50 acres I just purchased in lower MI.

My new neighbor has 80 acres with a river splitting it in half so 40 of that 80 is landlocked. The forester wants to come through my land. My land isn't the only property abutting his, but he and his other neighbor don't get along so that leaves me.

I really don't have a problem with him going through my land but do have a problem with how he wants to do it. He will skid through my land and load the trucks there, as well. He wants to use a very poor two track that runs through the middle of the property that I am trying to let grow over and leaving fallen trees lie across it because too many trespassers are using it. He would also have to fill in a low water table area where I plan on putting a pond. I would like him to go around the perimeter of my land and to a much larger open area to load the trucks. However, he would have to put in a culvert and apron to connect to the main road. He seemed put off by my suggesting this.

His offer for this easement was $500.00. When looking at a past thread on this site...

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=12225.0

...this seems a little low for all he wants to do. It would barely cover my attorney fee for going over the paperwork to make sure that he, his employees or any independents won't sue me if they get hurt. And this is for using the road and loading area that I would rather he not use.

The forester also told me that he had given my neighbor quotes previously but they never completed a deal. I wonder if the previous owner of my land didn't like the terms of the easement. Or maybe he has a buyer for the property and is getting all he can out of it. I plan to stop by next week and ask him if he's selling.

It's a mostly wooded parcel with a creek running through and the same river that is preventing access for my neighbor running through, also. I have people leasing it for hunting so, at least, he agreed to harvest in the winter. I am also leasing out the larger area, that I would like the forester to use, to a next door neighbor to add to his adjoining cropland. So Jeff's post in the above thread really rings true.

I don't want to p o my neighbor because I am not there full time and who knows what might happen (only talked to the guy twice) but I don't want to be left with a bad taste in my mouth every time I visit the property either. Plans are to move there eventually. Of course, if he's selling and moving out, that's a different story.

Am I asking for too much? Using the perimeter of the property and the larger loading area is my biggest concern. The money isn't really a problem just as long as any fees to look over the paperwork are covered. Or should I be more concerned about money?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Corley5 · August 11, 2014, 10:14:20 PM

It's your property. Don't let them dictate the terms.

luvmexfood · August 11, 2014, 10:23:56 PM

Quote from: Corley5 on August 11, 2014, 10:14:20 PM
It's your property. Don't let them dictate the terms.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Southside · August 11, 2014, 10:28:23 PM

100% agreement here as guy who is on both sides of the fence as a landowner and logger. Honestly I can't think of an easement situation that has actually worked out well. Personally I would pass on the deal all together.

beenthere · August 11, 2014, 11:07:08 PM

What Corley5 said... my feelings exactly.
You shouldn't be made to feel badly about your decision.
Just leave it that you don't intend to mess up your property at this time. Leave the door open for years down the road.

Brleclaire · August 11, 2014, 11:47:30 PM

Tell them that if they want to come thru and use your land that they have use the perimeter and large landing. Have some sort of bond that if they leave your land a mess that you get the money plus the initial money for easement. If they don't like it tell them to lump it.

thecfarm · August 12, 2014, 05:35:43 AM

Marlin.welcome to the forum. As said it's your land. You are doing HIM a favor. I'm just saying,you get another road in there and that will bring more traffic in too. If you want a pond in certain area,why should you have to put off your plans to help him?

Woodboogah · August 12, 2014, 07:44:42 AM

It's your land! It should be on your terms, if they dont like it then guess they will find another way. Like CFarm said another road brings in more traffic. Good luck

OntarioAl · August 12, 2014, 08:46:56 AM

Marlin
$500 for easement rights!
This Forester must be joking or else he has you pegged as a "babe in the woods" which you are obviously not.
If you lived up here and as a Forester working for you I would advise Not To Grant an easement, once granted no mater how temporary they have a nasty tendency to come back and bite you in the future.
If you can afford it make an offer for the landlocked parcel the river acts as a natural subdivision (allowable up here) and have it attached to your property. Settles the easement access issue .
My thoughts
Al

Marlin · August 13, 2014, 12:31:57 AM

Thanks for all of the great replies everyone!

My wife had an uneasy feeling about this all along and you guys have confirmed it. Even if the guy went around the perimeter and promised the moon, she would still be uncomfortable.

You guys turned this into an easy decision and my wife will be able to sleep at night! We'll let him know that we aren't interested for now and we'll leave that door open for possibly allowing it some time in the future.

Thanks again!

beenthere · August 13, 2014, 12:52:23 AM

Some people could care less if their land gets scruffed up with a logging road and a landing. You folks obviously do care and have expectations of your land in the future.

If they come in with logging trucks, and it is, or turns out to be, wet and with logs still to get out, then they are going to make a scar on your land that will never be as it is now.

I wouldn't even leave the door open for the future... just would say it doesn't fit our plans.. ..

But do as you feel best and most comfortable.

John Mc · August 13, 2014, 09:46:55 AM

You do have to wonder why he doesn't get along with his other neighbor.

If you do end allowing him to cross your land in the future, it should be on YOUR terms, and with a deposit or escrow that will not be released until your land is returned to a condition acceptable to you.

Is it a river that divides his land, or just a stream? No way for him to bridge it and acheive access from his own land?

Marlin · August 13, 2014, 01:27:27 PM

I didn't have a lot of time yesterday to answer you guys individually but wanted to make sure I thanked you all for the quick responses! I have some time today to get a little more in depth with my replies to you...

Quote from: Corley5 on August 11, 2014, 10:14:20 PM
It's your property. Don't let them dictate the terms.

Quote from: luvmexfood on August 11, 2014, 10:23:56 PM
Quote from: Corley5 on August 11, 2014, 10:14:20 PM
It's your property. Don't let them dictate the terms.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote from: Southside logger on August 11, 2014, 10:28:23 PM
100% agreement here as guy who is on both sides of the fence as a landowner and logger. Honestly I can't think of an easement situation that has actually worked out well. Personally I would pass on the deal all together.

Thanks Corley5, luvmexfood and Southside that's all I really needed to hear!

"Honestly I can't think of an easement situation that has actually worked out well." Makes me very glad I did find this forum and ask!!!

Quote from: beenthere on August 11, 2014, 11:07:08 PM
What Corley5 said... my feelings exactly.
You shouldn't be made to feel badly about your decision.
Just leave it that you don't intend to mess up your property at this time. Leave the door open for years down the road.

The guy did try to make me feel bad. He was pretty much whining about me taking time to research it. "Poor neighbor can't get at his wood..."

Quote from: Brleclaire on August 11, 2014, 11:47:30 PM
Tell them that if they want to come thru and use your land that they have use the perimeter and large landing. Have some sort of bond that if they leave your land a mess that you get the money plus the initial money for easement. If they don't like it tell them to lump it.

I am writing all of this down so that, if we decide to let them through in the future, we will have all of the bases covered. This is obviously not something to rush into! Thanks for the bond info. Would have never thought of that!

Quote from: thecfarm on August 12, 2014, 05:35:43 AM
Marlin.welcome to the forum. As said it's your land. You are doing HIM a favor. I'm just saying,you get another road in there and that will bring more traffic in too. If you want a pond in certain area,why should you have to put off your plans to help him?

Quote from: Woodboogah on August 12, 2014, 07:44:42 AM
It's your land! It should be on your terms, if they dont like it then guess they will find another way. Like CFarm said another road brings in more traffic. Good luck

Thanks for the welcome! I am learning a lot here. Not only on this thread but the entire site! The extra road concerned my wife in the same way you guys mention. "Just another road to watch." My hope was that they would travel the better road, but it wouldn't be through the woods. It would be through farmland and not as scenic, so they would probably still use the road through the woods. Thanks!

Marlin · August 13, 2014, 01:41:39 PM

Quote from: OntarioAl on August 12, 2014, 08:46:56 AM
Marlin
$500 for easement rights!
This Forester must be joking or else he has you pegged as a "babe in the woods" which you are obviously not.
If you lived up here and as a Forester working for you I would advise Not To Grant an easement, once granted no mater how temporary they have a nasty tendency to come back and bite you in the future.
If you can afford it make an offer for the landlocked parcel the river acts as a natural subdivision (allowable up here) and have it attached to your property. Settles the easement access issue .
My thoughts
Al

You know what? You guys ARE my advisors! And we are going to take this advice.

I think he's got us pegged as a couple of dumb city slickers! I was born at night, but it wasn't last night! I may not know something, but I know enough to look for answers. Like coming to this forum.

The part about the easement coming back to bite me... Does it have anything to do with this scenario:

On my property in the U.P. there was probably about 300 acres owned be my great, great grandfather. As this was passed down through the generations, I ended up with 20. I have the original log cabin and the entrance to the property and that road goes through all of the splits. When it was my parents property, the county actually designated that as a road and not just a "driveway" onto the property. My parents had to fight that being a road but since it's all relatives and everyone does have main road access, it wasn't hard for them to get it taken care of.

This is what I'm imagining could happen to this lower 50.

Marlin · August 13, 2014, 01:51:04 PM

Quote from: beenthere on August 13, 2014, 12:52:23 AM
Some people could care less if their land gets scruffed up with a logging road and a landing. You folks obviously do care and have expectations of your land in the future.

If they come in with logging trucks, and it is, or turns out to be, wet and with logs still to get out, then they are going to make a scar on your land that will never be as it is now.

I wouldn't even leave the door open for the future... just would say it doesn't fit our plans.. ..

But do as you feel best and most comfortable.

We do care for our land. We spent a lot of time looking for it. When looking, we wanted a water feature larger than a pond (the river), and quiet. We actually would just "listen" at all of the properties we looked at. And we were looking for several years. We weren't in a rush. It had to be just right and shorter drive than the U.P.!!!

We are going to go a step further and take your advice of not even leaving the door open. The logger is obviously a shyster and I can't trust him.

enigmaT120 · August 13, 2014, 02:18:09 PM

How big is the river splitting your neighbor's land? Can he build a road and put in a bridge? Or they could move the logs over the river on a cable, I've seen that done. I guess you still have to get a machine to the other side to do that, though.

Marlin · August 13, 2014, 02:33:54 PM

Quote from: John Mc on August 13, 2014, 09:46:55 AM
You do have to wonder why he doesn't get along with his other neighbor.

If you do end allowing him to cross your land in the future, it should be on YOUR terms, and with a deposit or escrow that will not be released until your land is returned to a condition acceptable to you.

Is it a river that divides his land, or just a stream? No way for him to bridge it and acheive access from his own land?

Quote from: enigmaT120 on August 13, 2014, 02:18:09 PM
How big is the river splitting your neighbor's land? Can he build a road and put in a bridge? Or they could move the logs over the river on a cable, I've seen that done. I guess you still have to get a machine to the other side to do that, though.

I do wonder about the other neighbor. But I have heard other "not so good" things about that neighbor. I think it may have to do with a disputed fence line. The fence line encroaches over the survey lines. But it's been there more than eighty years. And they probably don't want there land messed up either!

I also heard some very bad things about the guy I bought the land from. But I found him to be VERY likable. He was very accommodating on all our contingencies. When it came to that disputed fence line (it abuts my property too) we surveyed just to the fence and he sold me the property only to the fence line because we didn't want any disputes. In court, the fence line always wins. At the closing he was one of the nicest people we've met. We were shocked at the rumors about him. So, there are three sides to every story.

My wife brought up going across the river and the only reason we can see for him not to do it is that maybe he doesn't want to tear up his other side. That's where his house is. The river is about 50' wide at it's narrowest but very shallow this time of year. Probably less than knee deep in places. Very hard and rocky bottom. Four wheelers cross it all the time. A wheeled skidder would have no problem. But it might be an environmental issue? If it is, who's gonna know. The neighbor did build a small land bridge so he could cross on foot... that isn't legal. Several farmers have their fences crossing the river because their cattle walk across the river... that isn't legal. But if no one complains...

And why has the logger been out there several times over the years to mark trees and walking away without a deal? My guess he didn't want to accommodate previous owners of my parcel. The guy we bought it from is a businessman. He just owns land and leases it to farmers. Now that's a nice way to make a living! He sees the value in the farmland but not the wooded part and we got a pretty good deal because of that. So I don't think he'd have a problem with an easement. He probably just didn't like the $500.00 part!!!

BradMarks · August 13, 2014, 03:45:48 PM

Marlin: you are making the right decision IMO. I have a tree farmer friend who had to pay a timberland company a $5000 easement just to use their company gravel road to access his property (which has a spur to the gravel road) and agree to maintenance costs if he were to haul logs off his property onto the company road. So $500 is way way off base.

Shotgun · August 13, 2014, 04:22:51 PM

Marlin, how about filling out you profile so that we might know where you're located. Your introductory first post will be lost in the forum, so help us help you by telling us a little about yourself? General location is good enough, or whatever. Welcome to the forum. And thanks for using punctuation, some don't. Thanks.

Marlin · August 13, 2014, 05:02:45 PM

Quote from: Shotgun on August 13, 2014, 04:22:51 PM
Marlin, how about filling out you profile so that we might know where you're located. Your introductory first post will be lost in the forum, so help us help you by telling us a little about yourself? General location is good enough, or whatever. Welcome to the forum. And thanks for using punctuation, some don't. Thanks.

Sorry about that.

Marlin · August 13, 2014, 06:46:28 PM

Quote from: BradMarks on August 13, 2014, 03:45:48 PM
Marlin: you are making the right decision IMO. I have a tree farmer friend who had to pay a timberland company a $5000 easement just to use their company gravel road to access his property (which has a spur to the gravel road) and agree to maintenance costs if he were to haul logs off his property onto the company road. So $500 is way way off base.

Yeah, he probably forgot a zero. ;)

enigmaT120 · August 14, 2014, 01:42:59 PM

Wow. Weyerhauser was willing to let me have access through about 50 feet of their land to their nice gravel road that wraps up and around my place, to haul logs, for free. From there it would have been through almost a mile of their roads to the county road. The only trouble was I don't have a road going to that corner of my place, and it's not the area I wanted logged (yet) so I'm not using it. They were not going to give me an easement, but permission to haul through their property for that specific project, is how I understood it. I think it would be maybe 3 log truck loads. And I wasn't even offering to sell them the logs, that time.

Black_Bear · August 14, 2014, 04:28:42 PM

Quote from: enigmaT120 on August 14, 2014, 01:42:59 PM
Wow. Weyerhauser was willing to let me have access through about 50 feet of their land to their nice gravel road that wraps up and around my place, to haul logs, for free. From there it would have been through almost a mile of their roads to the county road. The only trouble was I don't have a road going to that corner of my place, and it's not the area I wanted logged (yet) so I'm not using it. They were not going to give me an easement, but permission to haul through their property for that specific project, is how I understood it. I think it would be maybe 3 log truck loads. And I wasn't even offering to sell them the logs, that time.

Giving permission will prevent an easement by prescription, which is an easement obtained over time and with continued use. We use road use agreements, a simple one page contract with a map as an exhibit A. Most large companies are more than willing to allow usage, it works both ways.

Marlin · August 15, 2014, 02:07:25 PM

Quote from: Black_Bear on August 14, 2014, 04:28:42 PM

Giving permission will prevent an easement by prescription, which is an easement obtained over time and with continued use. We use road use agreements, a simple one page contract with a map as an exhibit A. Most large companies are more than willing to allow usage, it works both ways.

Excellent point!

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/adverse-possession-trespassers-become-owners-46934.html