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Author Topic: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars  (Read 10590 times)

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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2016, 05:10:25 PM »
My pleasure to post pics Niko :)
Not sure about DL it's been a while since I changed the tip. It just so happened Stihl's 74DL loops works out fine.
I'll have to go back to the old Oregon loops hanging on the wall to see what I was running for DL
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2016, 06:44:03 AM »
Anyway, 74dl is a more "likeable" dl count than 75 - but 76 is even more "likeable" as it makes a "perfect loop" (all sequences are complete). This hardly matters in practical use though... :) :D

I have a slightly uneasy feeling about Cannon dl counts though, as they aren't always "logic", and have been changed too often (in their listings). When you aren't cutting and spinning your own loops, this is an uncertainty that you (or I in this case) don't need.

Also, Cannon may be destroying their own reputation with those Chinese bar tips, and I don't understand why they do it.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2016, 12:47:18 PM »

Also, Cannon may be destroying their own reputation with those Chinese bar tips, and I don't understand why they do it.
I have had Cannon make me special order guide bars for over 30 years.
They specialize in making a high quality bar but they are not in the business making sprocket nose tips.
Seeing Windsor/Sandvik have been out of business manufacturing Mini Pro bars there is no longer a supply of those sprocket tips
So a Chinese copy cat supply can be bought.

I did get not bad service out of the Chinese tip but luckily I have a supply of OEM Windsor tips and I'm good to go.
I think Chinese product can be good quality under the right quality control. Stihl and Husqvarna have plants in China.

Remember back in the 1960s when a Japan made product was called "copy cat cheap"?
Well those Japanese Honda motorcycles that were copies of the British Nortons, BSA motorcycle turned out to be a better product then what the British could build.
Honda today owns the biggest share of Harley Davidson.
Can the Chinese do the same?

Here's a 1979 ad of the newly introduced Windsor Mini Pro bar.
Next pic compares the Windsor OEM tip to the aftermarket tip.
 

  

 
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2016, 08:52:40 PM »
Well, the Windsor tip obviously is much shorter, and tapers much more abruptly as well. Is that nose a nine-pin in .325, vs, the "normal" ten-pin?

As it looks, it will "steal" effective bar length, in addition to what difference the length makes, as it tapers off too abruptly for any part of the tip to be considered for actual (effective) cutting length. As it looks to me, the Windsor "mini-pro" tips really is a very bad design, as they make you need a longer bar than other tips do (it is the same with the Oregon "double guard" tips - wasted bar length.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2016, 11:36:49 PM »
Well, the Windsor tip obviously is much shorter, and tapers much more abruptly as well. Is that nose a nine-pin in .325, vs, the "normal" ten-pin?
Actually Niko that Windsor tip has a 12 tooth 1/4" sprocket.
But my .325 noses are a "normal" 10 Tooth.
What's with the "pin" terminology? We're not talking about Danzco pin sprockets here :D

As it looks, it will "steal" effective bar length, in addition to what difference the length makes, as it tapers off too abruptly for any part of the tip to be considered for actual (effective) cutting length. As it looks to me, the Windsor "mini-pro" tips really is a very bad design, as they make you need a longer bar than other tips do (it is the same with the Oregon "double guard" tips - wasted bar length.

The Windsor Mini Pro tip is only 7/16" (10mm) shorter then the Cannon Chinese tip. Hardly noticeable in my opinion.
Take another look at the Cannon tip, notice how ugly high the rivets are and how they would snag and pinch in the wood kerf.
The shorter design of the Windsor is far more superior for durability, less flex with less chance of breakage at the bar joint.
Plus less chance of the sprocket and bearings getting pinched and burning out.
Notice how the Chinese tip needed 3 extra rivets.
The shorter tip also offers less chance of chain derailing.

Now to the Oregon PowerMatch tips , the small radius 9 Tooth 3/8" Double Guard PowerMatch tip is longer then the standard 11 tooth tip, so a longer bar is not needed.

I love those Double Guard PowerMatch bars, super smooth in limbing and bore cutting and near zero  kickback energy. ;D

Awesome last pic of a low top Husqvarna 576XP AutoTune with a 20" Double Guard bar 8)
 

  

  

  

 
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2016, 11:12:21 AM »
I follow you in most of what you wrote there, particularly the comments on the Chinese bar noses (tips) - but I just can't agree that "pointed" bar noses are an asset.

Of course a short bar nose will be stronger at the joint, as you say - but it also means that more of the "slap wear" from the chain ends up on the bar body itself, instead of on the replaceable nose. At least Oregon used to say that, related to their own relatively long replaceable bar noses, and I'm fairly sure that their point is valid.
This isn't something that will keep me away from this or that - just something to be aware of.

One thing is for sure though, after seeing your pictures of the Cannon noses, I am not going to buy any Cannon bars until they come up with something better - they look horrible!

10mm difference should normally mean one dl (actually slightly more, but far from two) - meaning that 75 dl likely is correct with the original nose - at least with a 7-pin drive rim.

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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2016, 12:07:31 PM »
I follow you in most of what you wrote there, particularly the comments on the Chinese bar noses (tips) - but I just can't agree that "pointed" bar noses are an asset.
Well small radius bar noses are a great asset when they are proven to reduce kickback energy significantly preventing countless potential injuries.
Let the pro grade safety bar nose do the safety work rather then using a poor cutting yellow chain.


Of course a short bar nose will be stronger at the joint, as you say - but it also means that more of the "slap wear" from the chain ends up on the bar body itself, instead of on the replaceable nose. At least Oregon used to say that, related to their own relatively long replaceable bar noses, and I'm fairly sure that their point is valid.
This isn't something that will keep me away from this or that - just something to be aware of.
One method to prevent that.....proper chain tension.
The middle Windsor Mini Pro bar in the pic has alot of hours on it and no evidence of damage to the bar rails from "chain slap".
 

 
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2016, 12:45:00 PM »
Here's a closeup of the high hour Windsor Mini Pro bar.
You can notice a bit of indentation wear from the chain coming over the bar nose. But no where near the bar rails.
Proves the Oregon theory is a bit full of wind.
The chain wear from rotation only follows the diameter radius of the sprocket nose.
But I have seen wear and chipping of the bar rails near the joint, but that was from limbing spruce in freezing temps. Loose chain tension was the major cause.
 

 
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2016, 04:06:21 PM »
I see.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2016, 04:27:19 PM »
I see said the blind man :D
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2016, 07:40:36 AM »
Well, I still believe that most people will have most of the wear further back, caused looser chain.
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