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Author Topic: couple pics... post what your currently cutting  (Read 510693 times)

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Offline quilbilly

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4580 on: March 25, 2020, 07:43:10 PM »
@quilbilly
Whatís long poles? Last time we had a buyer out looking for some we got told our stuff was too big for the dimensions they want now.
For our area 65+. They have pretty much cut off 35+40. Will only take a 45 if you've got longer to go with it. Our guy will take 125+ I think. We have an issue with too much height. We are sometimes having the issue of not a large enough butt. We made a 105' pole today. It will get deducted but if I cut it back it would be too big on topf the small butt size. 
a man is strongest on his knees

Offline Skeans1

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4581 on: March 25, 2020, 07:51:47 PM »
@quilbilly 
We use to do the 125í to 175í for the yard in Rochester years ago, last time they came down they said the height and top was their but the butt diameter is way too large anymore.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4582 on: March 25, 2020, 08:14:37 PM »
Yeah for that low value material the price is not much different here, if anything lower.  Those poles though...whew..I'd think they would bring more than they did.  Just amazing stuff.  What do they use them for?  Ship channel markers?  Or ?  I can't see them being used for terrestrial stuff so I am guessing marine applications.  

Re supply and demand I just don't see how more supply can help out in a world where relatively close by mills are over capacity and restricting purchases.  Lumber is all going to the same folks so a mill within a few hours of seattle is selling lumber to seattle (as an example).  They don't really care.

@skeans1- yes the consolidation among the REITs has been interesting.  I knew Matt Donegan when he was just getting going at US Forest Capital.  We only dreamed of consolidating timberland the way the big W has done.  They played their hand pretty well.  Tough on the loggers.  Matt did ok for himself too, email was just getting going back then and I lost touch.  At some point W becomes a victim of a raider and it all gets broken up all over again.  Just wait a decade or so.  
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Offline quilbilly

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4583 on: March 25, 2020, 08:22:21 PM »
Not here, before export restrictions we had a massive export market. Being next to one of the largest ports on the west coast and close to China, relatively, we ship a ton of wood that way. The local mill prices for us are driven by the export market, when it goes up so do local mills. The only thing here that really stays local is cns stuff. We get and ship lumber to Canada and around the world. 

Skeans we need to mix wood, your butt size is too big, ours is too small. We are also shipping to Rochester. 

Native wolf, the Rochester pole yard is owned by Stella Jones, they used to have three and consolidated all down to one. They bought out McFarland Cascade. Another example of how there used to be competition out here for wood that just doesn't exist anymore. Also our trucks are more expensive than skeans. They're all looking for $100 an hour minimum and will sit if they don't get it. 
a man is strongest on his knees

Offline nativewolf

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4584 on: March 25, 2020, 08:27:54 PM »
What do they do with these long long poles?  
Liking Walnut

Offline Skeans1

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4585 on: March 25, 2020, 08:35:34 PM »
Yeah for that low value material the price is not much different here, if anything lower.  Those poles though...whew..I'd think they would bring more than they did.  Just amazing stuff.  What do they use them for?  Ship channel markers?  Or ?  I can't see them being used for terrestrial stuff so I am guessing marine applications.  

Re supply and demand I just don't see how more supply can help out in a world where relatively close by mills are over capacity and restricting purchases.  Lumber is all going to the same folks so a mill within a few hours of seattle is selling lumber to seattle (as an example).  They don't really care.

@skeans1- yes the consolidation among the REITs has been interesting.  I knew Matt Donegan when he was just getting going at US Forest Capital.  We only dreamed of consolidating timberland the way the big W has done.  They played their hand pretty well.  Tough on the loggers.  Matt did ok for himself too, email was just getting going back then and I lost touch.  At some point W becomes a victim of a raider and it all gets broken up all over again.  Just wait a decade or so.  
REITs has been one of the worst thing that has ever happened to the forestry industry itís all about the turn around for as cheap as possible vs good forestry. When you run a Doug fir rotation of 40 years you loose a ton of value as well as it causes more disease to start running wild faster.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4586 on: March 25, 2020, 08:37:21 PM »
What do they do with these long long poles?  
Iíve done special order sailing masts for ship restorations in Aberdeen, done a lot of fender/bumper logs, special utility poles north of the 125í length is still very common and required in many states.

Offline quilbilly

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4587 on: March 25, 2020, 08:43:14 PM »
Yeah for that low value material the price is not much different here, if anything lower.  Those poles though...whew..I'd think they would bring more than they did.  Just amazing stuff.  What do they use them for?  Ship channel markers?  Or ?  I can't see them being used for terrestrial stuff so I am guessing marine applications.  

Re supply and demand I just don't see how more supply can help out in a world where relatively close by mills are over capacity and restricting purchases.  Lumber is all going to the same folks so a mill within a few hours of seattle is selling lumber to seattle (as an example).  They don't really care.

@skeans1- yes the consolidation among the REITs has been interesting.  I knew Matt Donegan when he was just getting going at US Forest Capital.  We only dreamed of consolidating timberland the way the big W has done.  They played their hand pretty well.  Tough on the loggers.  Matt did ok for himself too, email was just getting going back then and I lost touch.  At some point W becomes a victim of a raider and it all gets broken up all over again.  Just wait a decade or so.  
REITs has been one of the worst thing that has ever happened to the forestry industry itís all about the turn around for as cheap as possible vs good forestry. When you run a Doug fir rotation of 40 years you loose a ton of value as well as it causes more disease to start running wild faster.
I tried explaining this on the ask a Forester board and was not received well. The 35-40 rotation is just not good. Really limiting markets. I had a friend who used to work for pope and Talbot which is a REIT,  that was just bought by rayonier also REIT, he said they would cut more on a down market to meet the minimum $ quota for the paper pushers running. A Forester who was around for the change and got out at the end said he just couldn't stand to watch it any longer and retired as soon as he could. He loves forestry and still does side work but won't go for the industrial 35-40 year garbage. 
a man is strongest on his knees

Offline Skeans1

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4588 on: March 25, 2020, 08:44:44 PM »
Not here, before export restrictions we had a massive export market. Being next to one of the largest ports on the west coast and close to China, relatively, we ship a ton of wood that way. The local mill prices for us are driven by the export market, when it goes up so do local mills. The only thing here that really stays local is cns stuff. We get and ship lumber to Canada and around the world.

Skeans we need to mix wood, your butt size is too big, ours is too small. We are also shipping to Rochester.

Native wolf, the Rochester pole yard is owned by Stella Jones, they used to have three and consolidated all down to one. They bought out McFarland Cascade. Another example of how there used to be competition out here for wood that just doesn't exist anymore. Also our trucks are more expensive than skeans. They're all looking for $100 an hour minimum and will sit if they don't get it.


 We have a lot of this kind of second growth left

Offline nativewolf

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4589 on: March 25, 2020, 09:26:18 PM »
@quilbilly Complete Agreement!  That short rotation kills forestry and turns it into corn.  Forest are dead ecosystems...no complexity and ecologically devoid of any value other than a carbon sink.  No diversity of values/timelines, etc.  No forestry, etc.

I really enjoy the silvicultural challenge of growing mixed uneven age hardwood stands.  Really challenging and economically attractive.  We're able to generate much higher returns but it is not cookie cutter..reits hate it.  Reits are just the modern day timber barons.  They raped NE, then the appalachians, then the great lakes, then the PNW.  Now they are reinvented as REITs and doing all over again. 

The saddest thing is that they control so much of the PNW private lands.  1 nimnut decision can effectively destroy forest across millions of acres.  
Liking Walnut

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4590 on: March 25, 2020, 11:41:07 PM »
What's a REIT?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline donbj

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4591 on: March 25, 2020, 11:43:22 PM »
What's a REIT?
Real Estate Investment Trust
Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065

Offline quilbilly

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4592 on: March 25, 2020, 11:45:17 PM »
Real estate investment trust. Most large timber companies have moved to this for tax purposes. I believe weyco was getting taxed %20+ then spin off a couple mills to qualify for REIT status and are now taxed around %15
a man is strongest on his knees

Offline nativewolf

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4593 on: March 26, 2020, 07:11:09 AM »
Yes a REIT is a special purpose LLC designed to allow real estate investments to flow back to owners easily.  They pay high dividends, used in commercial real estate-your local shopping malls might be owned by a REIT.  Anyhow, they are just dividend plays so they judged by ability to return $, it was not uncommon to see plum creek pay out 8%.  If the timber markets took a dive, they just cut more to deliver the same dividend %.  Lots of short term actors but really no reason it had to have been the case.  Managers were bonused based on the dividend payment rate.  In fact, in some years they would pay 10%...crazy high numbers.  They key point here is they are not judged on the value of the assets or other metrics that would reflect investments or value created by proper forest management.  Just dividends.

They had to compete with someone owning a set of commercial buildings in san fran or LA during the hot .com period or the 2004-2008 real estate bubble where rents were ever increasing which made it easy for a real estate company to keep increasing dividends because renters just got sent higher bills every year.  In 2008 that all blew up and many went under.  It would have been good for the timber REITs but the housing markets stopped and profits declined until China ramped up buying.  Then lots of smaller timber REITs could not compete and Weyerhauser is back to being the majority owner of timberland in the US.  Today they own some incredible amount of private realestate and it is shocking that they were allowed to take over Plum Creek and others, way way too much market power, should have been stopped on anti-trust grounds but the anti-trust departments under Bush/Obama were very weak kneed.  No better today though so don't get hopes up.   Nobody looking out for the little guy and on the west coast there is very little independent private land ownership not called weyerhauser.  
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4594 on: March 26, 2020, 07:29:44 AM »
Yes there was Plum Creek but it was a small company compared to say Longview Fibre or Willamete which they have bought out both and mainly had holding in the Oregon/Washington area. Plum Creek was a lot of eastern ground which they just sold off. The only nice thing about being a small guy is now some of the mills arenít taking their wood and we see higher prices. Just to give you an idea of some their contractors are running up to full steam itís not unheard of them to do around 50 loads a day so they can really plug up a mill quick.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4595 on: March 26, 2020, 07:40:18 AM »
Yes there was Plum Creek but it was a small company compared to say Longview Fibre or Willamete which they have bought out both and mainly had holding in the Oregon/Washington area. Plum Creek was a lot of eastern ground which they just sold off. The only nice thing about being a small guy is now some of the mills arenít taking their wood and we see higher prices. Just to give you an idea of some their contractors are running up to full steam itís not unheard of them to do around 50 loads a day so they can really plug up a mill quick.
Yeah...your timberground when it is good is so crazy productive that one crew can plug a mill.  SE lob can't compete except on the # of acres.  I really enjoy seeing the pics of the nice second growth!  Don't you west coast guys be shy about making us feel small time, neat to see them.  We have some nice grounds in old estates and the $/tree can be very nice but volume wise they are just normal stuff to you.  
Plum creek bought a bunch of WV timberland from the paperco divestments,  they sold off to ...guess...guess...
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Offline Clark

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4596 on: March 26, 2020, 11:08:36 PM »
Yes there was Plum Creek but it was a small company compared to say Longview Fibre or Willamete...
I think Plum Creek was a minor player on the west coast but they had substantial amount of land in MT and the upper Midwest. I had the opportunity to work on their ground in WI and OR. The Oregon land was near Siletz, Iíll let someone else reference the move, and not nearly as nice as that Nehalem River Country!

When they bought up land in WI they certainly pulled the wool over everyoneís eyes. The foresters, who I am guessing were telling what they were told, were convinced PC would be around and owning that land for decades. The locals were worried they were going to slick it all off and then sell it. They certainly had no qualms about developing lake shore or other higher value parcels of land. I recall the hunting shack on a little lake that went by the name ďLittle BethlehemĒ which was divvied up and lots sold to people from Illinois.

They liked to sell parcels that had pine on it. One guy even contacted me through this forum asking me what I thought of the deal. They would sell him the land but they would get to thin the pine two more times!

In the end they cut as much as they could which isnít to say their prescriptions were bad but they did milk it for what it was worth and then turn around and sold it all. Iím not sure who bought the Plum Creek land in WI or MI but they certainly had some nice stuff there.

So in retrospect, Iím not a fan of REITís owning timberland.

Clark
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Offline barbender

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4597 on: March 27, 2020, 12:32:52 AM »
I know of one group, Molpus I think it's called, that owns all of the former Boise timberland in northern MN. I was told that it is owned by teacher's union pension funds etc., as it was considered a safe spot to park money and still get a decent return. No idea if that would be an REIT?
Too many irons in the fire

Offline barbender

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4598 on: March 27, 2020, 12:53:08 AM »
Springtime hardwood thin. Primarily Basswood/hard maple.










There's a Scorpion hiding in there somewhere-



Too many irons in the fire

Offline Skeans1

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Re: couple pics... post what your currently cutting
« Reply #4599 on: March 27, 2020, 06:46:56 AM »
I know of one group, Molpus I think it's called, that owns all of the former Boise timberland in northern MN. I was told that it is owned by teacher's union pension funds etc., as it was considered a safe spot to park money and still get a decent return. No idea if that would be an REIT?
Thatís exactly what a REIT is.


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