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Author Topic: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"  (Read 3079 times)

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Offline woodworker9

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2015, 06:11:27 PM »
I enjoyed reading this Jeff.  :)

I'm glad.  I've learned so much from you guys and this forum about sawmilling over the past 10 years that I'm just happy that I can share something I know from my profession.

Attempting joinery with stock that isn't straight and flat is frustrating and can make a lot of people give up.  Learning a process that makes it all much easier will keep everybody making sawdust.  The work is difficult enough without fighting the wood....
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Offline woodworker9

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2015, 06:27:54 PM »
i just glued up a 25"x72" bench top. started flat ended flat :) i never needed a jointer just used my planer like i always use making furniture. the old saying you can't make a silk purse using a sows ear. same with using crooked or bowed wood and expect good results. seems kinda funny how it all comes back to proper stickering of lumber.

In a perfect world, where every board dries perfectly flat and every stack is stickered just right, everything gets a whole lot easier.  I've learned in my career that this isn't the norm.  I completely agree with you that we can do a lot to end future headaches by stacking, stickering, and drying our lumber the proper way.  That is definitely a huge lesson that can be taken from this thread.

However, I also know from practice that not every single board that isn't straight needs to go in the woodstove.  I've met a lot of professional woodworkers all over the country who don't own sawmills, and are limited in timbers to what is available in their area, and they make do with rough sawn wood that isn't always straight and flat.  Following the procedures I outlined gives a solution to 98% of the boards in the stack.  Some are just destined for the stove, no matter how nicely we treat em'.

I've been mostly a reader of this forum for over a decade, and I put my 2 cents in where I feel I can help somebody out.  I agree completely, and have read here often enough, that the biggest push around these parts is to get people to sticker their stacks properly.  Most end-user problems are avoided when this is done.  I'll let the "Sticker Police" who know drobertson better than I get all over his case for that.  I'm just trying to help him solve the problem he has right now.

For what it's worth, I never, ever, ever (did I say NEVER?) mill any rough lumber by just using a planer.  I always use a jointer first.  It's just a simple way to guarantee great results.  If you don't own a jointer, you can use a planer sled in a planer to achieve the same thing, or you can use a hand plane first to flatten one side.  Even the straight boards in a stack can have a few small waves in them, and they can, and will, show up in the finished product.  If you're making a kitchen table for your own personal use, or a new workbench for the shop, it hardly matters at all.  But, if you're building a $7500 dining room table for a client who's purchased 12 pieces from you already, and expects absolute perfection for his/her money, then it'd better be right......that is, if I want to stay in business.

Two different extremes to consider.....
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Offline drobertson

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2015, 07:00:48 PM »
the planer sled is what I had in mind from the get go when I saw the results just did not know how to go about it.. after years of machining steel, to heat treat to the grinder I know all to well about warping of stock,  and shimming to make flat.   I will learn this wood thing, because I love it,  thanks you guys for the input, and patience with a rookie,  again hats off to the folks that share the craft with grace and knowledge.  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2015, 10:16:54 PM »
drobertson
 i wasn't pointing fingers towards you, just emphasing the results of less than perfect stickering.
ww9
 i feel the biggest push is proper lumber handling :) and i also know you wouldn't be one of my customers. :) there are customers that are picky and then there are customers that are unrealistic. maybe you should change suppliers if 98% of the lumber has to be jointed to make it usable. 
the experts think i do things wrong
 over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Offline Andy White

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2015, 09:14:57 AM »
drobertson,
I know the frustrations you are having with those panels. Shortly after getting my mill and kiln up and running, I would try to recover every board from every log. Soon I learned, that it is easier to edge glue narrower boards that are straight and flat , than to try to salvage a wide board. The cabinet project I am finishing now, really drove that home! Hand tools only, and you have to have every thing perfect. The stickering and stacking, with weight will give great results,  if you  know the limitations of the wood. Now I will cut the heart wood from all my lumber before stacking and drying. Those wide boards look good, but seldom give good results after kilning.
 

  

  

  

  

 

This is my observation, and your mileage may vary. 8) 8) 8)   Andy
Learning by day, aching by night, but loving every minute of it!! Running HM126 Woodland Mill, Stihl MS290, Homemade Log Arch, JD 5103/FEL and complete woodshop of American Delta tools.

Offline chet

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2015, 10:05:36 AM »
woodworker9, great post  smiley_thumbsup

I'm meticulous with my stickering, but still always use da jointer. I've even been known ta use it ta dress framing lumber.   :D
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Offline beenthere

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2015, 01:02:35 PM »
thanks guys!  I've done bout what has been mentioned,  the main issue is I dried it without proper stickering.  The planer did not take out the slight bow, so a few of the panels had a bow, maybe 1/8" or lil better.  I did get the jointer squared up, but man you guys that do this on a regular basis, hats off to you!  brutal, but fun,  thanks again,

Just to keep on track, I take it from this post that cup wasn't a problem, and it was bow from the stickering used.
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Offline drobertson

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2015, 03:16:41 PM »
thanks guys!  I've done bout what has been mentioned,  the main issue is I dried it without proper stickering.  The planer did not take out the slight bow, so a few of the panels had a bow, maybe 1/8" or lil better.  I did get the jointer squared up, but man you guys that do this on a regular basis, hats off to you!  brutal, but fun,  thanks again,

Just to keep on track, I take it from this post that cup wasn't a problem, and it was bow from the stickering used.
that would be correct beenthere, very subtle, but there,  it reminded me of grinding large flat stock and needing shims to take out the warp. the planer which I know just flattens out like a magnetic chuck then the stock releases back to where is was, just thinner.  I will get this figured out, and have some kindling as well ;D
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline WDH

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2015, 08:20:01 PM »
I believe that the most indispensable tool in a woodworking shop is the jointer.  I sell lots of wood to people that do not have the proper tools to make what they are trying to make.  I always advise them, and many times I take their wood into my shop and joint it flat then plane it.  It turns out to be more of a public service as I do not usually recover my time and costs. 
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Offline drobertson

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2015, 09:58:36 PM »
I never knew this, and glad to know now, thanks guys,  lots to learn when dealing with wood,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline jamesamd

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2015, 10:13:09 PM »
I believe that the most indispensable tool in a woodworking shop is the jointer.  I sell lots of wood to people that do not have the proper tools to make what they are trying to make.  I always advise them, and many times I take their wood into my shop and joint it flat then plane it.  It turns out to be more of a public service as I do not usually recover my time and costs.

That's why, You have good business and repeat Customers Danny ;)

Jim
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Offline redbarnwoodworker

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2015, 09:41:50 AM »
Jeff is absolutely correct, the jointer is the right tool to flatten your lumber. 

One other suggestion is to ruff cut your boards to length.  This lessens the amount you need to joint off to flatten.  Remember to leave a little extra length to trim and never cut shorter than the distance between your infeed and outfeed rollers of your planer. 

It is a good idea to sticker your planed boards for you have exposed fresh wood to the air.  Don't leave pieces laying flat on your bench.

Remember fatten before going to your planer

Project looks great.

Hope this helps.  {Enjoy your wood and work with it}

Offline jueston

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2015, 01:29:21 PM »
i just read an interesting article which quoted our very own @GeneWengert-WoodDoc saying that you should joint immediately before gluing and sand immediately before finishing.

the article was in woodworking network and said that even just a few days of sitting around the shop after jointing may lead to some of the wood fibers swelling, leading to an inferior glue joint.

i'd never heard this before, but makes perfect sense.

Offline ely

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Re: how flat is flat when glueing panels, 20"x36"
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2015, 10:51:39 PM »
I have started using my joiner to get a flat board on one side when they are six inches or less. If they are wide I just back the planer off so it barely pulls the board thru. That way it shaves a small amount off instead of pressing it flat. I am using this to make my drawer bottoms 3/8 thick.


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