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electric bandmills

Started by sandsawmill14, March 11, 2015, 12:42:20 AM

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sandsawmill14

Any of you guys running electric bandmills?  what are the pros and cons? ???
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Ianab

Don't run one myself, but if your mill isn't portable and you have a suitable mains supply, then the electric wins in every way.

Quieter, cheaper running, less maintenance and the torque curve of an electric motor is better for running a sawmill.

Cons?. You aren't portable any more, or at least only as far as the cord reaches....
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Brad_bb

I'm now regretting not going electric on my LT15.  I now realize that I will mostly be milling here at home inside.  Con: exhaust inside during winter when you want to keep the doors closed.  Con: You've already got the mill planer hooked up to dust collection hose and connecting an exhaust hose to the opposite side(where the exhaust outlet is) would make for a Pain in the butt to manage another unwieldy hose at the same time.  Con:Noise level of gas motor inside, so you have to wear good earmuffs.  Con: Starting and stopping the motor more often (because you're inside) on a gas motor is harder on the motor than stopping and starting an electric motor.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

thecfarm

I only saw for myself. Mine will sit most times through the winter months. I may use it steady for a month,than it sits there the other 11 months. No carburetor problems with electric.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ozarkgem

quiet, powerful, no oil change, no running to town for gas, cheaper to run , if you are not portable its the way to go.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

red

I have wondered why Woodmizer does not sell a Genset large enough for an electric LT40 and a monster Genset for an LT70
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

Cedarman

We have over 15,000 hours on our 25HP electric LT30HDE.  It starts every  time. Even at 10 below.  Quiet.  Great power.  Our multihead motors have well over 22,000 hours.  Been running since 1992.
Plus, all the things the others have said.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

warren46

I run a Timber Harvester with a 40 HP electric.  Frankly I think 40 HP is a little overkill but I love it.

When making the decision consider the cost of motor disconnects, conductors and starters.  The cost can add considerably even if you have a three phase panel near your mill.

Also, electric motors of a size to run a sawmill do not usually like frequent starts.  The inrush current when starting may overheat the motor.  Follow the manufactures recommendation regarding frequent starts.

All of that said, I sure like the sound of the blade in the wood without the noise of an engine, the lower operating cost (I pay about $60.00 per month for electric), and never running out of diesel.
Warren E. Johnson
Timber Harvester 36HTE25, John Deere 300b backhoe/loader.

bandmiller2

My homebuilt can go ether way I have a Wisconsin two cyl. or a 15 hp baldor three phase. I have it setup in a building with good lighting and no way am I going back to engine power. Quiet, no fumes, massive torque, cheaper to run, easy to start and much more pleasant to work around you can talk to your help. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

sandsawmill14

I have to stay portable so it would be on a smaller (to me) 100kw genset .i dont think it would it would burn much more fuel than i will when we get edger going as i will be running 2-25hp and 1-6hp gas engines if i leave it as it is. when i say portable it not like most portable jobs.  i have been where im at since november but in but around the first of the month im gonna have to move to another mill to saw 70-80000 ft of 16' red oak logs the back to where i am now. i will already have to make 2 trips even without the genset so it wont make it any harder to move just put it on trailer with edger and green chain.  are yall happy with the the performance of electric?  thanks for the help
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Dave Shepard

I've run a Wood-Mizer off of a generator. It is the way to go for me, but with the genset at about 5,500 pounds, not very portable.



 

The LT40 and 70 use the same 25hp motor, although the LT70AC does use more AC motors for up/down, feed and debarker. WM wants a 50kva genset to run an AC mill. If I was to buy a new mill with the intention of doing portable sawing, I would get an AC mill and use the savings to buy a genset. I would buy a small IH truck with a service body on it and put the genset in the back along with an air compressor. Then I would have all of the tools and supplies I would need right on the truck.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

sandsawmill14

loading the genset would not be a problem as we always have a 8000# lift around but if i go with electric i will probably set genset on trailer and leave it the just load and unload the green chain and edger. dave are you happy with the 25 hp?
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Dave Shepard

My sawmill is the 51 HP CAT/Perkapiller. The 25 HP electric is supposed to be comparable to the 51 HP diesel. In fact, I was once told that WM was pulling up to 50 hp from the 25 HP electric for brief periods. The mill in the picture is a '92 LT40E15 manual. 15HP electric. I would say the 15 electric was comparable to the identical '93 LT40G24 Onan gas that I used to run. It is so much nicer to not have to deal with a gasoline engine on anything, especially with today's fuel. Running on a genset is not going to be your most fuel efficient option. It is really only viable if you have no grid power, or grid power is too cost prohibitive.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

sandsawmill14

I agree with you about the genset. I will probably put a elctric service where i am now and use the genset when  i have to move. I dont know I might be better of just buying an electric mill and leave this on on gas. I have a lot more sawing than than i ever imagined and had a man walk up today wanting me to saw walnut  and cherry he said it would be around 10-15000 bdft a mont combined. so I really dont know what to do.  thanks for the info though everyone smiley_thumbsup
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Dave Shepard

I would think if you are really going to gear up to saw higher volumes, and you have a friendly utility company, then grid would be the way to go. Keep the B20 for portable work and setup stationary with a high production mill with live deck and outfeed rolls. You've got to have the support equipment to utilize a bigger mill, obviously, but it sounds like you could be looking at cutting a lot of logs.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

dean herring

Sandsawmill 14, you must have read my mind . I was going to ask that exact question.
I think electric is the way to go. Are you going electric?  From the posts seems electric motor has plenty of power, which is what I was wondering  about? More info welcome.
Failure is not an option  3D Lumber

dean herring

Forget to ask which mills offer a really good electric mill?
Failure is not an option  3D Lumber

sandsawmill14

 dean i have got to do something. I was thinking about changing to electric and try some 1 1/2 .055 bands to see if i could get a little more out off my mill. I would like to find a higher production mill that is already electric but i dont really know what to look at as all the company # are very misleading every mill will cut per hour what they say but you have to pick your log, get it on the mill and start timing when you start sawing so thats nowhere close to what you will saw per hour over a weeks time. Ive thought pretty hard about a select double cut but thats alot of money and i dont like the idea of the 4 or 6 inch band. I have talked to 2 different mills that run the wm 3500 one of them had 2 of them with a resaw and said they were only sawing 10-12000 bdft per day and the other 1 is only about 30 miles from my house and with 3 men and edger he only averages about 3500 per day. So I assume those numbers are close because they seem to agree. Dont get me wrong I like the wood mizer mills but price is why i have timberking b 20. I got it right before thanksgiving and have already cut over 100000 bdft with thats not near enough for the amount of time but with the weather we've had i guess thats not to bad. The last 2 weeks we've averaged about 220 bdft an hour but that includes everything from trimming/splitting logs to shoveling sawdust. the best day we.ve had so far is 3098 bdft but their is no way the mill can average that I had cherry picked logs and saved them to try to get an absolute max on the mill (at least with what im sawing) so i could see where I stood far as my production. I am real close to max at 220 i dont think it could ever average over 250 per hour long term in my situation. whatever i do has to be thin kerf or i will lose most of my customers. sorry i got so long winded.  :-[   ;D You have any ideas?
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Ianab

I somehow don't think that going electric will magically change your production.  Slight improvement? Yes.

Do an estimate of how much time the band actually spends cutting over the course of the day? Actually in the wood. If that's only 50%, and a new mill is 20% faster in the cut, your can only gain 10% at most. Logs still have to be fetched, loaded, turned etc. Sawdust and slabs removed. All those little time consuming tasks that need to be done, and the mill isn't cutting while you do them.

So do you need a good helper? A log deck? A sawdust extraction system? An edger? Better setworks?  Things that can actually increase your "band in the wood" time, with your existing mill. You have already identified the sawdust shovelling, log trimming etc.  This is where having a "Man Friday" could really help?

Just for example, Peterson posted a video today of one of their mills sawing a log, a bit over 600 bd /ft in 20 mins. Now that's not a realistic all day production scenario, and they advertise more like 500 an hour (on a good day).  BUT, if you had a good crew, setup and logs, the mill could cut a LOT of wood. But working alone? Probably down at the 200 / hr level, because of the amount of time the blade isn't actually in the cut.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Bibbyman

Quote from: sandsawmill14 on March 11, 2015, 11:35:35 PM
dean i have got to do something. I was thinking about changing to electric and try some 1 1/2 .055 bands to see if i could get a little more out off my mill. I would like to find a higher production mill that is already electric but i dont really know what to look at as all the company # are very misleading every mill will cut per hour what they say but you have to pick your log, get it on the mill and start timing when you start sawing so thats nowhere close to what you will saw per hour over a weeks time. Ive thought pretty hard about a select double cut but thats alot of money and i dont like the idea of the 4 or 6 inch band. I have talked to 2 different mills that run the wm 3500 one of them had 2 of them with a resaw and said they were only sawing 10-12000 bdft per day and the other 1 is only about 30 miles from my house and with 3 men and edger he only averages about 3500 per day. So I assume those numbers are close because they seem to agree. Dont get me wrong I like the wood mizer mills but price is why i have timberking b 20. I got it right before thanksgiving and have already cut over 100000 bdft with thats not near enough for the amount of time but with the weather we've had i guess thats not to bad. The last 2 weeks we've averaged about 220 bdft an hour but that includes everything from trimming/splitting logs to shoveling sawdust. the best day we.ve had so far is 3098 bdft but their is no way the mill can average that I had cherry picked logs and saved them to try to get an absolute max on the mill (at least with what im sawing) so i could see where I stood far as my production. I am real close to max at 220 i dont think it could ever average over 250 per hour long term in my situation. whatever i do has to be thin kerf or i will lose most of my customers. sorry i got so long winded.  :-[   ;D You have any ideas?

Rase your prices.

One person hits a limit to how much they can get onto and off of the mill.  A bigger,  faster mill is not going to improve production.  Automating some of the material handling with live decks and an edger will help but you'll hit another production peek.    Adding people will make a big jump in production but then it doesn't look nearly as good when you divide production by two or three.

We have an LT40HDE25-RA with live log deck,  rollers for cants out one end, use the dragback to best advantage and have edger.  It takes three people to start to use the production potential of the mill. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

sandsawmill14

bibbyman right now I have 1 offbearer. I have a live green chain on the back side of mill, all lumber and cant go to it to be stacked. All the lumber is edged by the big mill crew that im sawing for so we dont have to touch it after its off the mill, same with the cants the come get them with the wheel loader and take them to be stacked with theirs.  I dont have a log deck yet but loader keeps logs ready so im only waiting for log loader on mill which is a few seconds but not to long, i will time it today though so i know. right now i am sawing 6-7 hrs out of the 9hr days we work on average. I just built the green chain but since i put it in we have averaged about 400 bdft per day more. I may just be asking to much of the mill.  As I have said before I like the b20 but i have got to do something, I may wind up having to get a 2nd mill.
Thanks for everyones help.  :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

4x4American

With an electric mill you can turn the drive wheel around easily...which is nice for a few different reasons.  That alone should sell you on it.
Boy, back in my day..

Magicman

 say_what  Say what?  Explain.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

dean herring

Failure is not an option  3D Lumber

Bibbyman

Maybe so you can drive it down the roads in England?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

dean herring

Does w WM or TK offer an electric driven mill.
Failure is not an option  3D Lumber

Dave Shepard

I don't know if TK does, but there is a link to their website on the left. I bet they do. WM offers an electric option on LT15 and the LT40 Super and larger at the very least. As mentioned, you need the support equipment to get the potential of a higher production mill.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

PC-Urban-Sawyer

Quote from: Bibbyman on March 12, 2015, 02:12:51 AM
...  It takes three people to start to use the production potential of the mill.

Which means that since Bibbyman has ProSawyer Mary on payroll they've got plenty of capability to use the full potential of their mill!

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Herb

SPD748

I hope this isn't a hijack however I do have a question about electric motors and generators. How does one go about sizing a generator for an electric motor (mill)? For instance, say I have a 30 hp, 3 phase motor on my mill and I want to run it with a diesel generator. What size generator would it take to run this load? Or... would a more detailed list of motor specs be required to properly size the generator?

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

schmism

Quote from: SPD748 on March 12, 2015, 02:34:49 PMwould a more detailed list of motor specs be required to properly size the generator?

AMPS!

or total watts or volt-amps if you perfer, either way you need to know amps.    google tells me the avg 30hp electric motor would pull something like 35 amps at 460v   which is 16,100w  or 16kw.   you might squeeze that out on a 15Kw genset as the 35 amps listed may be locked rotor condition... operating amp draw is much less (half or more)   

but if your sizeing your genset, id leave "room" to power other items.   electric chain saws, lights, blowers, etc.    sum up the total number of watts needed for all your intended use, and find a genset that outputs that amount.  20...25...30kW are all easly attainable portable genset numbers.    There really is no upper end,   Catapillar genesets currently run from 450kW up to 7MW.

couple of other notes.... technically there is a conversion between hp and w  as 1hp = 745w  but thats purely a theoretical conversion.  It doesnt take into account any losses etc.   so to say 30*745 = 22350w isnt quite accurate.   One might also say that because the above electric motor only uses 16kw its only a 21hp motor... again  there is marketing, electric hp vs gas hp vs diesel hp....   much of this portion of the discussion devolves quickly which is why brigs and stratton no longer lists hp and only lists displacement.  (due to the lawsuit)

The point is, it boils down to total watts.... or volt-amps (kVA) if you want to be technical (as your not considering power factor)
039 Stihl 010AV  NH TC33D FEL, with toys

SPD748

Ah...

This particular motor says 74 full load amps @ 230 volts with 94.1% full load efficiency and a 1.25 service factor. I'm told there is a "locked rotor amps" rating however it's not on the name plate.

Oh... the plate says 230/460 volts. Forgive my electrical ignorance here: If wired for 460, will the required generator size/rating be lower?

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

Ianab

The issue with the generator size is that it has to be able to handle the start current surge of whatever the motor draws for the first few seconds while it's spinning up. This will be considerably higher than it's running load.  Maybe 50% more?

It also varies with with the motor design, the type of starter (A VFD / soft start will usually start an motor with less current) and the genset itself will have different continuous and peak loads as well.

But 50% more is going to be in the right ball park.

This also gives you some "extra" to run accessories as schism mentions, although you may have to start the largest motor first.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

schmism

the most common rateings you can sometimes find for electric motors are as follows

-full load amps, -  max current that the motor can draw and still maintain listed rpm
-startup or surge amps - current that the motor draws durring startup.  generally this value and the full load amps are very close,  enough so that you can assume to the 2 to be the same unless otherwise stated (eg for special motor designs)
- locked rotor amps - max current the the motor can draw period.  this occurs when the motor is stalled or the rotor (the part that spins) is locked up unable to move.   can also be called stall-current.
- no load current - this is the current the motor draws when operating under no load.  (free spinning on the bench with nothing attached) 

You can assume a fairly linear line between the no load current and full load current based on percent load.   eg if no load current is 10 amp and full load is 110 amp.  then 50% load will draw ~60 amp.   The inverse of this is also true, which is how load meters generally work,  they read the current draw and display that as % load.

IN the case of a band mill its unlikely you'll ever see a locked rotor condition as the system is belt driven and the belt drives on saw mills will slip long before a locked rotor condition especially on a 30hp motor.   (you may be able to achieve that much torque on a small 5hp though)
039 Stihl 010AV  NH TC33D FEL, with toys

schmism

Quote from: Ianab on March 12, 2015, 02:58:10 PM
The issue with the generator size is that it has to be able to handle the start current surge of whatever the motor draws for the first few seconds while it's spinning up. This will be considerably higher than it's running load.  Maybe 50% more?

So gensets include a "surge" rateing also.   Generally to handle startup currents for motors.   In the above example 74amp*230v = 17020 VA  or roughly 17kVA.     What would be the smallest genset that could run that motor?  Id say 15kVA genset.   A 15kW Kohler genset lists a 19kW surg rateing.  Enough to start the motor.   Again, if you assume you ran it at 50% load its likely only going to draw roughly 10kW which is well under the 15kVA nominal output of the genset.
039 Stihl 010AV  NH TC33D FEL, with toys

schmism

A few other notes.....

If your looking at purchasing a factory built 30hp electric machine,  its as simple as reading the numbers off the face plate to size the generator.

If your thinking of upgrading (or building from scratch) an existing gas powered mill to electric, and think hey, 20hp gas might as well step it up to 30hp electric, be warned,  your likely not likely to see addtional saw rate increase unless you "re-gear" the mill for the higher hp.

here is a quote from Cooks
QuoteHere are some guidelines: 8 hp max speed 3,500 fpm, 12 hp max speed 4,000 fpm, 16 to 18 hp max speed 4,500 fpm, 25 hp max speed 5,000 fpm, 30 hp and above max speed 5,500 fpm.

You "use" your hp in feed rate.    high feed rates = high hp.   but there are physical limits to feed rate that have to do with how fast you can remove the sawdust for the lenght of cut your makeing.  You will physically fill the gullet of the tooth with sawdust,  Once its full, if you try to pack more material in it you get problems,  most notably, diving or climbing.     So high hp, high feed rate production mills use very large gullet blades = few teeth per inch and the larger the gullet the wider the blade has to be. 

OR the other option is to increase the band speed so that you get more teeth through the cut in a given time thus allowing you to increase your feed rate.  which is why you see cooks recommend higher band speeds for higher hp mills (with the same 1.25" blades "everyone" uses)

So moving from 20hp gas to a 30hp electric, without increasing your "gearing" allowing for more bandspeed, you will not likely see the advantage of that extra hp you just bolted on.
039 Stihl 010AV  NH TC33D FEL, with toys

SPD748

Ok so...

An electric motor which has a full load amp requirement of 74 amps @ 230 volts would require a minimum of a 15 kw genset to start and run the motor?

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

Ianab

I wouldn't guarantee that under all situations. It might work, or it might not.

The 15 kva is the max draw while running, so a 15 kva generator would KEEP it running. The start current will actually be something higher. Maybe higher than surge capacity of the generator.

Most Generator suppliers would have you with at least 20kva, and that depends on the motor / starter design. A DOL starter would need more like 38 kva to get a 30 hp motor spinning. (Which is why those are not usually used)
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

sandsawmill14

1 hp= .745 kw      30 hp=22.35 kw    NEC allows for 800% fla of conductors with acceptable thermal overload protection to cover start loads. this allows up to an 800 amp breaker to be used on #2 thhn wire but remember the THERMAL OVERLOAD thing or you will burn the shed down !!!!  I installed a reduced voltage starter, auto transformer type, on a 75 hp 480 volt dust blower at a sawmill, start load with rvs was 563 amps without the starter i could not check start load because it went higher than my amp probe (1000 amp). this only happens for 2-3 seconds depending on load, we also have a 5' chipper on the same type starter that is set for 100 second start to get start load down to about 950 amps. we had to install cap. banks because we were dimming the lights at the bank and post office :o :o but everyones happy now

but on this motor if it says 74 amps @240 volts it will draw 37 amps on 480 volts  far as sizing genset take highest single amp load X 2, then take total combined load  and use which ever that is bigger and that will be MINIMUM size kw genset. the biggest i have installed is 1200 kw running complete sawmill down to 10kw residential units.  Im not trying to argue but it cost to much to do it twice.  SPD748  if you have any doubts call the company and they will tell you smiley_thumbsup
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

WoodenHead

If you have an electric motor with a soft-start or VFD (Variable Frequency Drive), the minimum recommended genset size (kW) would be roughly 2 x rated HP of the electric motor (assuming this is the only load you wish to start).  Theoretically the genset can be smaller, but I have read that any smaller and your genset will have trouble trying to regulate voltage resulting in potential damage to the genset.

Without a soft-start or VFD, the situation changes.  You need to have a genset that can handle the initial start-up current (Amps) which can be 6 x the rated full load amps (FLA) if you are under full load depending on motor type.  Normally in a sawmill scenario you are not in a full load situation, but start with no-load to lightly loaded.  This makes sizing a little trickier.  If I remember correctly, 2 or 3 times FLA is what you are looking for (or 2 to 3 times the rated HP of the electric motor for easier calculation).

So the absolute minimum genset size for a 30HP motor is 2 x 0.745 kW/HP x 30 HP = 44.7 kW.  For quick sizing many take the motor HP and multiply by two or three (i.e. 60kW or 90kW).

sandsawmill14

well stated  woodenhead
If you size a genset by these guide lines you will be happy ;D

dont for get to calculate the total load if more than 1 motor or other load is being used. never load genset past 80% for continuous load.
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

4x4American

Quote from: Magicman on March 12, 2015, 08:03:45 AM
say_what  Say what?  Explain.

The drive side bandwheel you can spin it around easily.  Be nice for cleaning the wheel and checking tracking.  Idk how your mill is but I can't spin the drive side bandwheel around unless it is disconnected from the engina.
Boy, back in my day..

Magicman

OK, I understand. 

Different sawmill manufacturers/models are set up differently.  My drive side band wheel  is secured by a brake when the clutch is disengaged.  To manually turn the band wheel, you relieve the break tension.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

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