blades broke at weld

xlogger · March 16, 2015, 11:20:35 PM

A while back I got some Kasco blades to give them a try. They cut good but out of a dozen I had about 1/2 of them break at the weld out of the box and some after the first sharpen. I've broke many blades but this are the first to break at the weld. I break a lot of blades cutting ERC mostly get a few sharps first. I think most of the breaks not in the weld come from some a lot of stringy bark all over the place when I cut getting between the band and wheel. Steve on here thinks its a weld problem. I sent them back and he's not replacing them saying they where dull and maybe Kasco metal is not as good as others. He sells several different kinds. What have others here done with weld breaks?

sandsawmill14 · March 16, 2015, 11:46:50 PM

I have been breaking lots of blades this winter most after first sharpening (i mean a lot 30-40) but only one has been in the weld. I run simmonds red streak and they say they will make them up if they break in weld. but i havent had the problem to know if they will. How many bdft per blade before you had to resharpen blades? sorry im no help but would like to find out about different blades I had thought about trying them and timberwolf but i havent yet. So far i've only tried the cooks supersharps, simmonds red streak, and the munks. so far the cooks cut the fastest but the red streaks cut a lot more bdft per blade. I dont know about the munks no major problems i just didnt like them as well as the other 2.

xlogger · March 17, 2015, 06:20:50 AM

Hard to say on how many bd ft I cut before I sharpen. I cut mostly ERC by myself and it's slow. Lots of stopping and starting. Usually run the blade about 2-3 hours. The ones out of the box might of ran 1-3 hours. I'm disappointed at my supplier for not making them good, but before I change I'd like to hear what others have done. I been running Simmonds also most of the time. Just was going to try Kasco a try. They did cut good till they broke.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · March 17, 2015, 06:38:12 AM

Well its like this.....a blade will only break at its weakest point.
If it breaks in the weld, that was its weakest point.

I use Woodmizer blades ONLY and Woodmizer does the reshape. I have experienced a break in the weld and its EXTREMELY RARE that this happens.
When I have a blade that breaks in the weld, WM replaces it at no charge.

All other breaks I experience either come from metal or the life of the blade as arrived after many, many resharps.
I do have and use a debarker which really extends the life of my blades.

Brad_S. · March 17, 2015, 06:52:54 AM

Blade life is extremely dependent upon the condition and types of logs you're cutting, there is no standard as to how much a blade should cut.
I use Simmonds red streak and get around a dozen sharpening's before they either break or they are to narrow to use. If you are breaking blades on the first use or after just one sharpening, you have issues but it is not the blade that is causing it.

TnAndy · March 17, 2015, 06:58:24 AM

I've tried different brands over the years, and went back to Woodmizer blades. Never had one break until they had been sharpened several times. Other brands, it varies. I bought 10 to try from one saw shop and over half of them broke at the weld.

Here's the deal....saw shop buy big rolls of them and custom weld to your size. Some of those guys know how to weld and anneal the blade, and SOME OF THEM DON'T.

Also, I've found Woodmizer has the best blades for WIDE sawing, whereas a lot of those other manufacturers were making blades for pallet shops....4-8" wide cants.....not 20" wide cuts. Pallet shops run the blades til the break, and pitch it. They ain't much on resharpening.

sandsawmill14 · March 17, 2015, 07:03:41 AM

I've run simmonds blades at least 90% of time for the last 10 years. they are good blades but i cant figure out why they break after resharpening it doesnt matter if I do it or send them off they still break. I have this problem with both mills I have backed off on the pressure on resharps and that help a little but they still break.I used to pull them off after 4-500 ft to see if that helped about breaking but it didnt so now I run them till they wont usually 1000-1200 bdft or change blade at lunch. I dont have much trouble saw erc but I run a lot more water than most have said close to gal per hour same as i do for syp. hardwoods i dont use very much water. I hate that their not going to make up your blades.

sandsawmill14 · March 17, 2015, 07:11:01 AM

If a blade breaks at the weld its the company's fault period. It just matters how many as to where its a problem or not. I tried woodmizer blades when i got my first mill and was well pleased with them but very little difference between them and the simmonds

xlogger · March 17, 2015, 07:14:32 AM

On the Simmonds I've had some about 10 sharpens and some break after 1st or 2nd. Never in the weld. Just that one batch of Kasco broke in weld.
I do break quicker than most I think because of the cedar stringy bark every where, getting between the blade and wheel. I have a chip deflector before the wheel but it gets bark hung in it a lot also. I keep the blade 1/4" before the flange. Just never had blades break in weld before.

Magicman · March 17, 2015, 07:16:04 AM

Quote from: xlogger on March 16, 2015, 11:20:35 PMI sent them back and he's not replacing them saying they where dull and maybe Kasco metal is not as good as others.

That is a "cop out" answer. The blade was being used as intended, and getting dull was part of the sawing process. A weld break is a manufacturing defect, and should be replaced.

I had a batch of WM blades that broke in the weld, and all of them were replaced free. some had been resharpened several times.

sandsawmill14 · March 17, 2015, 07:23:00 AM

Quote from: Magicman on March 17, 2015, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: xlogger on March 16, 2015, 11:20:35 PMI sent them back and he's not replacing them saying they where dull and maybe Kasco metal is not as good as others.
That is a "cop ot" answer. The blade was being used as intended, and getting dull was part of the sawing process. A weld break is a manufacturing defect, and should be replaced.

I had a batch of WM blades that broke in the weld, and all of them were replaced free. some had been resharpened several times.

x2

bandmiller2 · March 17, 2015, 07:29:09 AM

When bands break at the weld that is considered a fault of the supplier the good guys know this and will promptly replace them. I would try a different brand there are many selling bands, if you keep having problems look to your mill or procedure. Frank C.

drobertson · March 17, 2015, 07:38:55 AM

I have broke probably 6 or so through the last few months, none at the weld, and to hear that this dealer is baulking is not surprising, I would find another source, I have some Kasco's on the wall in rotation. only one broke after multiple sharpenings, not at the weld.

justallan1 · March 17, 2015, 08:01:09 AM

I've only broke a couple blades, both on the weld and just put on the mill, both from WM. I gave them a call and they sent new ones without any hesitation.
How have other brand blades held up for you after a few re-sharps and running bark through your bandwheel?
I just bought a box of Kasco blades to try, plain and simple because they are $10 cheaper than Timber Wolf, which is recommended for my mill by the manufacturer. If I find that they work on pine but won't hold up to the knots and bark on juniper, I'll keep them for pine.

goose63 · March 17, 2015, 08:05:42 AM

I have using Cooks super sharp and broke 3 out of 60 at the weld thy told me to send the welds back and thy gave credit for them

xlogger · March 17, 2015, 08:21:08 AM

I mostly use Simmonds and they have not broke in weld. The bark is rough on most of them averaging about 4-5 sharpen before breaks. I really don't think the Kasco are the problem but just wanted to hear what other think on this. I do feel like I got the run around on this. I got them because they where somewhat cheaper and I did like the way they cut till they broke.

BCsaw · March 17, 2015, 08:34:39 AM

I have posted in the past about my great experiences with Kasco blades. Never had an issue yet. I love the quality of the cut that I get from them.

You can't say enough about the welding process on a blade. It does need to be done right. It is imperative that the welded area is worked to prevent premature breakage in that area. Even if it is a quality weld, if the area is too brittle, it will break!

Tom the Sawyer · March 17, 2015, 11:32:11 AM

xlogger,

Contact Kasco directly and tell them what your supplier said. If he is welding them up from stock, the welds are on him. If Kasco welded them, they would want to know about any problems. They've been a good company to work with (but I got blades directly from them).

drobertson · March 17, 2015, 12:47:58 PM

Quote from: Tom the Sawyer on March 17, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
xlogger,

Contact Kasco directly and tell them what your supplier said. If he is welding them up from stock, the welds are on him. If Kasco welded them, they would want to know about any problems. They've been a good company to work with (but I got blades directly from them).

said as straight as it could be said, just ran one, and am embarrassed to say almost, I ran this resharpened Kasco, on the third go, bumping 3000bdft. I just could not quite, it was running without any hitch. finally pulled it just before lunch, just because, I was real tempted to see how far it would go,, pics coming,

xlogger · March 18, 2015, 06:04:37 AM

I called Kasco yesterday but didn't get to talk to sales person (got his voice mail), will call back today. It looks like the blades from them are a little over a $1 more than from my other supplier. The girl that answer the phone said they replace blades broke at weld. I know he going to ask me who I was ordering from before but I think I will not tell him, you know it might cause problems and I don't want to burn that bridge if I need him again.
Going back to blades breaking, when I was cutting pine awhile back I didn't break blades near as much as I do cutting cedar.
While we are on blades got another question for you guys that sharpen your own blades with a CBN wheel (dry wheel). It seems like my resharp blades don't stay sharp as long as new ones. I've had my wheel for about 2 1/2 years now and maybe sharpen on average 2-4 blades a week, more now that I'm cutting more. They seem to cut fine but get duller quicker. I've been cutting dry ERC logs mostly. How long do you use your wheels?

Peter Drouin · March 18, 2015, 06:30:11 AM

CBN needs oil to clean itself.

terrifictimbersllc · March 18, 2015, 06:52:55 AM

I've had three or four WM blades out of maybe a hundred broken, break at the weld, but that was after several grinds and many bf of sawing. Was about to send them back, the rep was willing, sent me a return label, but asked me if I hadn't already gotten my $$ out of them. I still have them in a drawer, I guess I agree with him.

bandmiller2 · March 18, 2015, 07:47:20 AM

Xlogger, if kasco asked I'd tell them who welded the bands it would benefit everyone including the errant welder so faulty welds are not continued. I'am sure there are semi automatic butt welding machines today that take much of the chance out of joining bands. I have butt welded many metal cutting bands from a roll of band stock and sometimes you get a poor weld for no apparent reason. Frank C.

drobertson · March 18, 2015, 07:50:33 AM

This is a the Kasco band that won't die ;D I have had a few bands keep sawing over the normal amount and retain sharpness but this particular band has just blown me away, it was easy to tell which one it was by the weld, it was a pain to sharpen because of the pitch was shorter at the weld

Sawman815 · March 18, 2015, 11:11:59 PM

xlogger,
This is my first post on the forum. I do not want to break any of the rules associated with the forum but I do want to let everyone know where Kasco stands on this issue. We would like for you to call in again and if you do get voicemail please leave a message so that this problem can get solved.
As many of the poster's have eluded to most companies stand behind their welds and the manufacturers expect the distributors to do the same. It is of our opinion that any blade that breaks in the weld is a weld problem and should be replaced by the welding company. The problem is that there as some people out there who try to take advantage of this and it makes it tough on the ones who don't. Since I am not sure who you purchased them from and since you said it had been a while ago they may think that you have had them too long for a warranty claim. Again, not sure.
One other thing mentioned in the post was a possibility of cheap metal. Kasco only uses quality steel from only a couple of the major steel manufacturers recognized in the industry.
On the blade picture with the extra metal in the weld, it look like it was just not cleaned up properly as the weld gullet should be the same as the rest of the gullets. Not sure who welded that one.

xlogger,
The way to get this resolved is to call in to Kasco and I am sure you will be satisfied with the outcome.

Thanks to all of the people who have seen this, shared your experiences, and encouraged him to call.

justallan1 · March 18, 2015, 11:44:29 PM

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, @Sawman815
It's nice to see another company standing behind their product.

xlogger · March 19, 2015, 06:28:57 AM

I will call today and plan on ordering some. I didn't believe him on the cheap metal. I know of others that have great luck with the Kasco blades. He was just giving me the run around, at first he told me to send them all in and then he just didn't want to warranty them.

Nomad · March 19, 2015, 07:31:58 AM

Quote from: justallan1 on March 18, 2015, 11:44:29 PM
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, @Sawman815
It's nice to see another company standing behind their product.

X2!

Magicman · March 19, 2015, 07:34:49 AM

Thanks and Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Sawman815.

Ga Mtn Man · March 19, 2015, 08:27:26 AM

I purchased 45 KASCO blades directly from KASCO in December 2013. A good number of them have broken since then (after several sharpenings, not sure how many) but I don't recall any that broke at the weld. I also haven't seen any that were off in the pitch at the weld. In fact the welds are so good I often have trouble finding them.

Cutting Edge · March 19, 2015, 08:56:30 AM

Quote from: Ga Mtn Man on March 19, 2015, 08:27:26 AM

... I don't recall any that broke at the weld. I also haven't seen any that were off in the pitch at the weld. In fact the welds are so good I often have trouble finding them.

x2

- I've always purchased mine directly from Sawman815. Nice to do business with someone who genuinely cares about a customer's satisfaction and the product they purchased.

- xlogger, Sawman 815 will get it rectified for you ASAP... without a doubt.

beenthere · March 19, 2015, 10:36:02 AM

Interesting read on blades in this thread.
Raises the question, how does one know that the blades that broke at the welds were indeed Kasco ?

Is there a brand etched on the blade?

Just seems possible a dealer sold some non-Kasco blades and thus the reluctance to exchange them when they broke at the weld. Just a thought.

drobertson · March 19, 2015, 11:54:39 AM

Can not remember if the ones I got had any logo or not, I could easily distinguish the difference between them and the Cooks'. I will say this I was not trying to hammer Kasco blades, I like them, a lot, the one shown in my last post was a trial from another outlet, it was free to me. it is the .042 thickness x 1-1/4" I have added up the footage with this band, and can say it has sawn over 8000bdft and was still sawing when I pulled it. Most of us see this on occasion with the die hard bands, this Kasco has made the wall of fame in my book.

bozzaa69 · March 19, 2015, 02:25:20 PM

On my mill, I have trouble with Simmond's breaking prematurely too. I figured it was a combination of having a hydraulic tensioner,which has no give, and Simmond's using more brittle steel. Just my assumption. I tried turning down the tension also. I bought a bulk of 1-1/4 and 1-1/2. Forget the 1-1/4 bands, they break way too fast. The 1-1/2,not as bad. Luckily I didn't buy as many 1-1/4's. Much better life with Lenox woodmaster c, on both sizes. I haven't tried any others,but I'm going to on my next blade purchases.

xlogger · March 19, 2015, 02:49:41 PM

Just got off the phone with the sawman815. He going to help me with the blades. Found out he only lives about 7=8 miles from me.

drobertson · March 19, 2015, 04:41:45 PM

Quote from: xlogger on March 19, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
Just got off the phone with the sawman815. He going to help me with the blades. Found out he only lives about 7=8 miles from me.

Wow! small world! glad to hear! I again have to say the re grind ability has to be figured into the equation on any band, and how they cut after re facing the cutting edge, longevity wise,, I will also say the process of making bands and the life cycle depends on the QA(QC) at the given facility through the process in manufacturing.

xlogger · March 24, 2015, 07:17:04 PM

Up date on Kasco Blades.
Sawman 815 came by this morning and replaced blades that was broke at weld that the man that sold them to me would not do. It was not Kasco fault but sawman 815 said he wanted to make it right. I cut with one after he left and it did great. I sharpen it tonight and plan on using it again tomorrow for a couple hours again. Found out if you order from regular Kasco dealer they weld the blades at the factory and send them to you threw a dealer, but the guy I got my blades from welded them at his place not a Kasco weld, he didn't do it right and blame Kasco so he would not have to replace them.
Thanks Sawman 815 for the great service.

Magicman · March 24, 2015, 08:36:04 PM

Good, the rest of the story always helps. Now you know who to and who not to get blades from. ;D

Nomad · March 25, 2015, 05:10:30 AM

Quote from: xlogger on March 24, 2015, 07:17:04 PM
Up date on Kasco Blades.
Sawman 815 came by this morning and replaced blades that was broke at weld that the man that sold them to me would not do. It was not Kasco fault but sawman 815 said he wanted to make it right. I cut with one after he left and it did great. I sharpen it tonight and plan on using it again tomorrow for a couple hours again. Found out if you order from regular Kasco dealer they weld the blades at the factory and send them to you threw a dealer, but the guy I got my blades from welded them at his place not a Kasco weld, he didn't do it right and blame Kasco so he would not have to replace them.
Thanks Sawman 815 for the great service.

Great information, and a lesson learned.

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