Keeping the faith or "When ya least expect it."

[JoeyLowe]

  It's was Friday night and I was feeling kind of solemn.  I have an awesome new Woodmizer Super 40, a couple of Stihl chainsaws, and a whole lot of enthusiasm, but no business.  The first week I had the saw I had three jobs, bam bam bam.  Then nothing.  I mean I bought ads in 4 different papers, 5 different high-traffic Internet sites, business cards and letterhead and hats, yes lots of hats.  For the past week I've been passing out cards and hats and talking with just about everyone I know.  I even sent and E-mail to Mike Curtis just to see what he was doing to generate business.  

Well, Mike called me last night to share with me his experiences this week and we chatted a little about this and that and I must say that I really enjoyed the conversation and the pep talk.  I mentioned to him that I thought I might luck out and get a couple of cedars to saw this weekend, but I wasn't waiting with baited breath.  So this morning, I get up early, grab my cards and hats and off I go to meet this fella about these cedars.  This is the third time I 've tried to have a face-to-face with him and he hasn't been available.  Well I get up to his place (about an hour away) and he's gone for the day.  So I head back home to take care of the honeydos.  This evening I'm poundering how am I going to generate new business, when the telephone rings.  A fella saw one of my ads and he has 20 cedar logs and he wants some 4x4 posts.  If I do well with those, he has other logs to be sawn.  As I'm talking to him, the fella that I went to see this morning calls and tells me that I'm pretty persistent and he likes that.  He tells me to come back Monday and start sawing.  He has close to 60 cedar logs and soem walnut.  Well, I'm feeling pretty full of myself so I log onto the Internet to share my good fortune with you guys and I get an e-mail from a fella who saw one of my ads (I put my email address in the ad) and he wants some landscaping timbers sawn special order, but he doesn't have any logs.  Instead, he wants me to provide the the logs and he specifically asked for NP-1 treated timbers with stain resistance, but nothing toxic since children will be playing near these timbers.  Which brings me to my questions?

What is NP-1?
Are there better choices other than treated timbers?  He has requested hardwood but is open to suggestion.

Where do I go for logs if I don't own any and neither does the customer?  This fella is looking for a longtime supplier so this could turn into something good for me I think.

As always, put aside my whining and give me your advice.

Thanks!

[Tom]

Joey,

Sawing blows hot and cold.  When you are a one man operation and advertise in public media, you stand a chance of becoming "too" busy.

The best control can be obtained from visiting hardware stores, farmers or where they congregate and generate "word of mouth" advertising.  The situation with the fellow wanting landscape timbers puts you in a position of having to do 'all' the foot work and that leads to a different sawmill arena than a custom sawing service.  To shotgun the market could get you stretched too thin too early.

If you have the acreage and the supply of logs and the capital and the means of disposing of the waste and the storage for the timbers and the access to a treatment plant and the time to produce his required inventory and have the retail tax laws in hand,  then it may be a viable business.  You are going to have trouble doing this type of work and portable sawing together.  Perhaps with experience and the ability to measure jobs you can schedule it but I have been portable custom sawing  for years and still get into binds.  It's not the type of business that you can start at 8 monday morning and know that you will finish by 3pm tue so that you can move and set up on another job to begin wed. am.

To start, pick what type of business you want to be and stick with it for awhile.  The problem with Mass media advertising is that potential customers see that you saw trees and assume that you do everthing.  Why, I don't know, but I still get customers that want trees cut down, logs removed, trash picked up etc. I get calls at the house from folks wanting lumber and treated timbers.  I just have to tell them that I am a custom sawing operation and don't do that.  I cut customers logs, on site, into lumber and then I tell them my rules.

It's hard to tell someone that you won't take their money but I have to remember what my business is.

Don't try to move too fast. The fun part of custom sawing is the marketing.  It is a little slow and falls more in the line of generating friends than placing ads.  Your competition is a little different than a Tree Surgeons', Lawn care professional, or clothing store.  Your success will depend more on their education and your ability to get them to "want" to saw. They need to be aware of their need to stockpile and inventory their own lumber and to think ahead.  

It's more important to "accidentally" meet your farmer in town and buy him a cup of coffee than it is to knock on his door.  He doesn't have to know you trailed him all day waiting for an opportunity buy his coffee.

It's important that you show an interest in his farm.  allow the morning in case he invites you for a tour of cows or chickens or beets.  They all like their farms and enjoy showing them off.

[Frank_Pender]

Joey, you might get in contact with these people, in Portland Oregon.  I know it is a long way from you, but they have  product that is a wood presertive that is non toxic.  I have been selling it to some of my customers and one city uses it for lumber of a foot bridge that spans a class 1 stream.   It is the only thing the EPA and other agencies approves for such structures.  You are welcome to use my name if you wish.
   The Heartwood Corporation,  1-888-888-6095
 I used four gallons on a 10' tall carved Western Red Cedar bear and it looks as new now as it did 7 months ago.

[Bud Man]

Joey-- I'm two months behind you in some ways. Tom's advice reek's of wisdom and It reminds me of Bee's and Bear's .The Bears sometimes step in a Bear trap in their search for sustenance. The Bees are attracted to the flower, with the reward being the nectar. Fan the air with the nectar of the seeds you want to reap and sow, be patient and let the bee's come to you !!   Whatever seed you plant mix in a dose of enthusiasm and sizzle.  " Good Luck-- It's Gonna Happen "

[JoeyLowe]

   Thanks for the input guys.  My professional background has had some pretty heavy marketing influence and I guess I knew better than to pull out the double-barreled shotgun for this.   8)Being a one man, (sometimes 4 if I can drag my family out  ), operation makes me a little antsy because there are so many hats to wear.  Ideally, I want to do custom sawing.  I want to be able to hook the mill up to the back of the Ford and go to a customer's lot where the logs have all been limbed, bucked, cleaned and stacked ready for me to roll onto the mill.  It would also be nice for the customer to have two strong hands present to off bear.  I just haven't got there yet, but I'm willing to keep trying.

I've already had a few calls from people wanting me to cut down their trees and haul them away for "free" .  I live in a farming and timber community of about 4500 souls and have been here only 4 years.  That means that I'm still the stranger that the bought the old Allen place.   So I guess it will take me more time than I thought to really get going in the direction that I want.

Regarding the treated landscaping timbers, I don't think I made myself clear enough.    I did some Internet research on pressure treating lumber and I knew that the largest sawmill in east Texas (A pressure treating facility) had recently shut down due to litigation over chemicals and disease. So I figured that actually pressure treating lumber would be way out of my league.  I guess what I was asking was whether or not there were other alternatives to pressure treating wood?  I found the AWPA site and learned what NP-1 means.  (Non-pressure treated wood).  The gentleman that contacted me is looking for a safe, durable, non-toxic, no split, no rot, wood alternative to pressure treated lumber for use in a child's playground.  He's located here in Texas and if this is more than what I should be tackling,  I would at least like to extend some goodwill and find him a source that could handle his request. It's kind of funny though, because I did locate a source on the Internet at www.railroadties.com that offers, almost word-for-word, what this guy is looking for.  Only thing is their minimum order is 1000 pieces which is probably more than this guy wants.

Frank, thanks for the suggestion on the supplier in Oregon.  I'll give them a call to see what they offer.  Bud Man, Mike filled me in on your trip to his place.  Did you really eat that much?   (Just kidding)

Tom, what are your thoughts on this.  Regarding the treated landscape timbers, I was thinking that since I am going to be milling a lot of cedar over the next couple of weeks, I could barter with the timber owners for a portion of the cedar and mill it into landscape timbers to be sold (hopefully at a profit) to the fella wanting them for his playground.  Cedar is supposed to be rot resistent right?  What are your thoughts on this?  Am I getting off track again?  My enthusiasm can get me into trouble sometimes!

[Bud Man]

Cedar big enough for landscape timbers is to valuable elsewhere, unless the quality is low. Catalpa, locust, white oak, cypress---any wood thats rot resistant but high quality will always be better used elsewhere.  Sounds like good book on wood usage is in order. Some one will jump in with current ideas in your area. Call Old  D.S.  "The Home of Texas Forestry"     He sounds cantankerous and thick skinned    but probably has close by sources.

[Jeff]

Send Don a message he'll help you if he can. His member name is TRanger.

[Tom]

Rot resistant varieties will make more money as external building material than landscape timbers.  Decks, siding, fence etc.

There is a marketing move that you may join whereas poor quality woods are cut to landscape timbers with no pretense as to their longivity.  The marketing ploy is that you let them rot and turn the rotted wood into the ground to be used by new plants coming along.  The price is supposed to be good enough that replacement of these timbers is worth while.

You could make use of the center of oak logs this way after you have gotten all the marketable lumber cut from the outsides.

It is a Marketing ploy.  It makes since but must be sold.

Until you get established, (if it were me) only hold wood for retail as a by product of your sawing efforts. Don't make it the number one project competing with the Mega Depots.

Some of your customers may appreciate being able to buy a few more 2x8's when their trees don't produce enough but being able to retail as a business is a project in its own right.

[Bibbyman]

One of my first jobs I got was to cut red cedar landscape timbers for a fancy, smacy upscale restaurant in the big city.  They were really nice cedar 6x6s but I charged them what I had to have out of them.  They were happy,  I was happy.  

I’ve never sold a cedar landscape timber to anyone who wanted to save money – although I’ve had a number of people who thought they should be cheaper than old RR ties.  WRONG!

[Texas Ranger]

Cantankerous and thick skinned.  Hard headed, too.

I agree with one of the other posters, no treatment is going to work for long in Texas with ground contact unless you go with the stuff with the "kill it quick" formulae.  So, use one of the rot resistant woods, bois de arc comes to mind, heart cypress is too valuable for timbers unless he wants to pay for them.  So, I'd cut white oak, tell him they will rot, will have to replace them every 5 years or so, and keep a client happy with an environmentally sound situation..

[JoeyLowe]

  The information available here just blows me away.  Do yall realize that it took the older generation a lifetime to learn the secrets that spew forth here.  I'm simply amazed and *DanG glad that I'm able to take advantage of it.

Tom, I took your advice this afternoon.  When I went to meet the first fella that has the cedar trees.  Just like you said, he wanted to show me around his place, 50 acres in all.  We walked the entire perimeter and every once in awhile he would stop and tell me this or tell me that.  After we got back to his place, he pulled out a sketch book and showed me his dream plan.  Turns out this fella's wife passed away three years ago and he shelved the plan until recently.  The reason he is clearing his property of trees, is that he wants to put a 10 acre lake right smack dab in the middle and surround it with 4 or 5 cabins to be used for weekend retreats.  He showed me drawings and every once in awhile he would stop and point off in a direction to correlate the drawing to the landscape.  I noticed that as he talked he seemed to relax a bit and talk about other things.  Funny thing is we never really got around to talking about the actual milling.  As I was preparing to leave, three hours later, he suggested that I bring the mill out on Thursday or as they say around here, "Thusday" and get started.

I believe that Bud Man is right.  I probably do need some more exposure to what wood should be used where.  Any suggestions?  Don, is bois de arc  really a wood?  Where do I find it?

[JoeyLowe]

   Okay, I did my own research and learned that bois de arc is in fact a wood and is nicknamed "bow wood" by the Caddo Indians for obvious reasons.  I put the link below for anyone else interested in learning more about it.  Thanks Don!

http://www2.smu.edu/anthro/boisdarc.html

[Don P]

I pull alot of locust out that would have no higher or better use than as a self composting landscape timber...marketing

As long as you're chasing the wild bodark this is a link I posted earlier that describes how bowmakers use of some of the osage orange.
http://www.bowyersedge.com/reaction.html
At one time pioneers were encouraged to take a pail full of its seed on their journey west. It supposedly is the most common fencepost.

[J_T]

 Here abouts we call it bo dok, Hedge apple Really i bleave you will find the proper name is osagea orange. Right place seames to bring a bunch of bucks. Always try to have fun and make a buck doing it.

[L. Wakefield]

   Check out www.osageorange.com/Osage_Orange_P.html  .

You can betcha I find that hedge idea intriguing. I wonder if it's more amenable to control than multiflora rose? You remember that was hyped to farmers as a 'living fence' at one time. I've seen the results in WV pastures. Aside from the fact that it saved my life, I have had some hard words for this stuff.. I did a search to try to find the northern extent of growth or zone. I know I saw one specimen in Ithaca NY about 1973- took me a bit to figure out what it was.    lw

[Bibbyman]

Here are about the nicest Osage Orange logs I've ever seen.  They were 10 and 12 feet long and 12-14" diameter.   Most aren’t this big or straight.

[swampwhiteoak]

I've seen plenty of large Osage Oranges, but not too many were as straight as Bibbyman's.  

[Bibbyman]

These 8 were selected out of a pile of at least a hundred "corner" posts.



Here is another shot.  We selected these more on size and clear of defect.  A couple we cut in two because of crook.

[timberbeast]

Heya,  Joey!

Thought I'd share some of my own trials and tribulations with you.  Like you,  I'm a one-man operation.  I cut my own wood from my own property,  however,  and mill it.  Also sell posts and smaller logs to fence companies,  etc.  2 years ago I was selling all the 1" stuff I could saw,  and selling the tops as fence posts.  I run a Mobile Dimension,  so one day,  having a stack of posts at the mill ready to haul out,  I get a bright idea.  I dog up a post and eyeball it.  Two passes and I have a 3x3.  Looks like a good-lokking landscaping timber to me,  so I cut them all up and haul them home.  People coming to buy the one inch see these,  and they snap them up for 3 bucks each faster than I could keep up with if the mill was running when they were waiting.  So I start cutting smaller trees and sawing timbers,  the bigger stuff I keep making one inch boards out of.  The sales of one-inch slows down,  and I'm selling timbers,  just from an ad in the local paper.  Everyone who buys gets a price list to take home with them.  One guy buys a few 2x6's (this is all cedar) and likes it so much that he places a huge order,  and I'm thinking that if all my 1x6's would have been sawed into 2 x6's,  I'd fill the order that day!  So I go back and start cutting 2x6's like a madman,  and cutting the tops and small stuff into 3x3's,  which are still selling.  I run into a great patch of trees,  where I could actually saw 2x12's if I wanted to,  but I make them all into 2x6's.  filling the order,  PLUS!!  When I'm stacking the "inventory" 2x6 stuff,  a guy pulls in and buys ALL of my 1x12's and tells me that he will buy every 1x12 I can cut for as long as I can cut them.  I eye the stack of 2x6's with a heavy heart.  All of this time,  I'm getting requests for logs from the website Jeff set up for me,  and I can't sell logs now,  I have lumber moving too fast!!  I just got a contact through the site who wants to buy Hemlock to export to Japan,  ye Gods,  panic!  I got Hemlock,  but I'm trying to cut as many 1x12's as I can,  then Mr. 2x6 comes back wanting more!  Then,  at the worst possible moment,  the tractor blows!!!  I'm not actively cutting right now,  but will do so on a slower scale this spring and summer,  but I'll do it differently.  As a one man show,  it just isn't possible to keep an inventory of everything folks want.  I'll do it by order.  I'm not going to turn an 18" log into 2x6's until someone asks for them,  because the next day someone may want half-inch by 12's,  who knows?  Lord knows I can work like a dazed fool all day in the swamp,  but I'm on the short end of the stick when it comes to business savvy!!  Live and learn!  As for weather-resistance,  for the woods that I cut,  I can vouch for Tamarack and White Cedar.  The bridge stretchers across the creek which are 15-plus years old,  are still supporting fully loaded logging trucks,  they are big,  14" plus,  but are not in direct ground contact,  but on rock rip-rap.  I did make a landscape border in the mid eighties of cedar at the house I sold in '92,  and it's still there,  just drove past last month.  Didn't get out and poke at it or anything,  but it looks sound,  anyway,  and it's actually into the ground a couple of inches.  I also have a post fence at this house that I built in '93,  and it's solid as a rock.  Just cedar posts beween 4-6" sunk 2 feet into the ground,  with similar posts notched and spiked across them.  Some of the bark is still on!  Good luck,  and do like Tom says,  don't get too far out that you can't fill a customer's needs!  I got a guy now who wants cabin logs,  I'd like to,  but I gotta work a "real job" for awhile to save for a new tractor that I won't have to fix once a week!!

[JoeyLowe]

   Guess my whining is over.  Timberbeast made several good points.  I passed the guy who wanted the landscape timbers off to Don Staples. (He knows people who can help him!)  Start another job in the morning.  A fellow called me to let me know that the county coop came through and cut down a pine tree that is 50' tall and about 25" diameter/dbh?.  Anyway they limbed it and bucked it and then left it laying in his yard.  Seems they have no place to carry it to.  So tomorrow, a supervisor from the coop is going to meet us their and watch us mill it into lumber,  The man is paying us for it and who knows, the coop might decide to use our services on other jobs.

Now for a touch of good fortune.  My father-in-law arrived from Ms. this afternoon and brought me a gift.  Seems his father, who passed years ago, owned a sawmill.  So Pop brings me a Belsaw Molder with close to 400 molding knives.  Now I already own planers and molders that I have used in my cabinet shop for sometime, but I have never seen a monster like this one.  Life is good.  

[L. Wakefield]

   Was it Billy Holiday did that great version of 'God Bless the Child'? The line 'them that's got, shall get' popped into my head when you were talking about Belsaw moulder.  lw

[L. Wakefield]

snip

I just got a contact through the site who wants to buy Hemlock to export to Japan,  ye Gods,  panic!  I got Hemlock,  but I'm trying to cut as many 1x12's as I can,  then Mr. 2x6 comes back wanting more!  

snip

  OTOH- I mentioned how people up here just DON'T like hemlock- it's weird- and one of the bad stories was this pile of hemlock that showed up down on a landing along the Fore River in Portland a few years ago. I mean this pile was SO HUGE- many, many rail cars worth. Someone had supposedly gotten an order to sell/ship it overseas. It sat there for a long time with some tale of the deal falling through. I don't know 'the rest of the story', but it was a warning to me of trying to make certain the deal is solid and/or that there is a fallback plan.

  There are lots of stories like that in- and out of- the woods. One of the people I know got into land purchase and trying to make it big with broccoli (these are very SMALL trees..) one year up in Aroostok County. The broccoli did great, but the market for the broccoli disappeared, and they went under.

  I think one possible lesson is to start small like you describe and let the market- ie demand- 'pull you'. I know there are plenty of people who CAN predict correctly and get into the right place to make the big deals- but when things fail in such a way that successful production is followed by waste- those are the stories I hate to hear. Real goods and real food should not be wasted by the fluctuations of a commodities market.    lw