homemade bandsaw mill, help

[Sawmill Man]

 I would also be thinking about gearing down the blade speed rather than up with that engine. If you are trying to cut at the band speeds some of the larger engines are using you are going to be using most of your power just to spin the wheels and blade.

[mazdathumps]

Thanks Pineywoods and ljohnsaw... I guess i'm going back to the drawing board (as planned) to reconfigure the guides... I setup my guides as I would a woodshop bandsaw... That's a bit of info that I never ran across with the original build... While on the subject, is it better to use the flanged bearings or 3-sided stacked bearings like i'm currently using (2 top, 2 bottom, and 1 rear)?? 

As for the engine, I've been looking for a cheap one around my area, but haven't found one... I guess i'm going to have to get off my wallet and buy one... lol

[mazdathumps]

I would also be thinking about gearing down the blade speed rather than up with that engine. If you are trying to cut at the band speeds some of the larger engines are using you are going to be using most of your power just to spin the wheels and blade.

I'm open to changing this with a new larger engine... As for now, my calculations and pulley sizes have me right at about SFPM on blade matching RPM of engine (+/- 200 SFPM)... My engine runs at about 4500 rpm no load, which puts my blade speed between 3800 and 4000 SFPM under load... It's slow going for sure... I will have to reconfigure pulley sizes with a different engine anyways, so I think I'll tackle that task when I get the new engine (which hopefully won't be too long)...

Thanks for the input, it's helpful...

[Kbeitz]

I would also be thinking about gearing down the blade speed rather than up with that engine. If you are trying to cut at the band speeds some of the larger engines are using you are going to be using most of your power just to spin the wheels and blade.

I'm open to changing this with a new larger engine... As for now, my calculations and pulley sizes have me right at about SFPM on blade matching RPM of engine (+/- 200 SFPM)... My engine runs at about 4500 rpm no load, which puts my blade speed between 3800 and 4000 SFPM under load... It's slow going for sure... I will have to reconfigure pulley sizes with a different engine anyways, so I think I'll tackle that task when I get the new engine (which hopefully won't be too long)...

Thanks for the input, it's helpful...

Are you running a 2 cycle engine? If not I would not want to
be around it if you got it peg at 4500 rpm.
The faster you spin the blade the less power you will have
from the engine. First you need to change the drive wheel
to pull not push. Did you ever try to push a rope? It doesn't   
work.

[gww]

Maz
The type of guide you have is a standard type on some production mills.  Most of the members here favor the cook guides with down pressure.  Some mills don't even have bearings on the guide but use something like ceramic blocks.  I like the down pressure cause it helps with really fine tuning and not having to relie on perfection of your wheel alighment though you should want that good enough that you could cut with out guides, then with guides you are golden.

I do think if you add the adjustments to go with it that the proper size roller guide gives you that final adjustment to really tune your blade well.  I got mine cutting fairly well with out guides and when I finaly added them it really brought it home.

I agree with the slowing of the blade speed.  If you want to double check your numbers. There is a caculator in the tool box that is below all the advertizement on the left of your screen. 

You might be able to cut with a 5 horse but bigger is better.
I started with nine and then bought a $300 18 horse.  The nine did cut some wood though, it just went bad.  The 18 is better.

I also changed my drive wheel to pull the blade rather then push it.

Most engines run about 3400 rpm full out if you decide to use the caculator.

I will say this, I would rather try and cut with the 5 horse with a really well alighned mill then a bad alighned mill and big motor.  My motor does not fix the cut when something is not right or tight.  A bigger motor is lots better if everything else is good.

Some of my biggest problims that I still deal with on my mill is belt slipping and alighnment and flex of the whole mill letting me only get so much tension on the blade.  Mostly it is doing good now but did take some beefing up.  I still have small things that happen.  Guide bearing going out or a nut coming lose.  Things do work better if everything is pretty solid with no wiggle.

I really don't know what else to say untill you try a few things.  These other guys are good at what they do and also have been doing this and building stuff for longer then me.
Good luck
gww

[Ox]

Everyone else already gave you good advice so I won't simply repeat what they've said.  I will add one thing:  The 13hp Predator engine at Harbor Freight is an excellent engine for the price.  Great reviews, cheap price.  I run one on my mill and am very satisfied with it.  I milled an ancient black cherry that was around 30" across with no problems.  It was a bit slow milling but cut well.  The trick here is to keep the RPM consistent.  Changing blade speed will cause wavy cuts.  On average trees I have zero problems with power.  It's all in the blade and alignment and blade speed remaining constant.  With your small engine you should be gearing down and getting a slower blade speed.  Like downshifting a truck on a hill.  Blade speed is relevant - slower blade speed simply means a slower cut rate.  In other words: slower head speed traveling down the track while you're cutting.

When your budget allows, I highly recommend Cooks blade guides.  Hard to beat.

[Kbeitz]

You want your blade speed so that each tooth of your band
is shaving so many 1000ths of an inch off the wood. Not enough
and the tooth is just rubbing the wood making the tooth dull.
To much and you will bog down the engine.

[Ox]

Feed speed has a bunch to do with this as well, no?  Relativity and all that...

[mazdathumps]

Wow. Lots of helpful comments and concerns... Thank you all... I'm planning to take this whole thing down for a little while and get to work on it... I will order the guides from Cooks, since everyone seems happy with them... I will also find a bigger engine... Also, I will swap my live wheel to spin the opposite direction, thus pulling the blade through my wood... My blade speed calculator is dead on with these online calculators, so I'm good I think on calculating blade speed...

With all that being said, It will take some chop, cut, and rebuild on a few things, but I'm game as long as I get this mill working well... My goal is to never buy wood again or maybe even make a few dollars here and there...  8)

I can't thank everyone enough for the helpful comments...

[gww]

josh
It would be exciting and neat if you showed a couple more pictures as you go through the fixing.  No matter what, after you do some of the work, it would be nice to hear the outcome and also your thoughts on what you think helped you the most.
It might help somebody else in the future.
Good luck
gww

[Ox]

If I recall, didn't you have much better results just after changing your blade to pulling instead of pushing, gww?  This will go a long ways for you, mazda.  like k said, you can't push a rope!  :laugh:

[mazdathumps]

GWW, I'll see what I can do for pictures and updates...

for OX and GWW, my first plan is to get the rotation swapped around to where my blade pulls through the wood... It's a no-brainer but I thought it would still work because of the tension, but I should have just fixed this problem when I built it originally...

As for the Cook's roller guides... Ooouch!! Is there anywhere to get these cheaper??  lol

[Ox]

They are pricey, yes.  They are also one of the most important parts of your mill.  You don't want to take shortcuts with your guides.  Trust me on this one.  Been there, done that, got the T shirt and said what's next.  If I remember they're around $50 each.  Don't forget needing that zerk bolt (greasable bolt) that holds them on.  Grease at the end of the day every time and they'll last forever.

Or are you looking at the entire $200+ complete guides?  No experience with these.  But it sure would make things easier for you in the long run being able to adjust perfectly.

[gww]

Josh
I had a wind fall on my guides.  Member leggman made them and gave them to me.  I was getting ready to buy some cooks myself.  Do you know some one with a lathe?  I am pretty sure he used 1.5 inch round stock and I would like to say 3/8 inch  bolt.  The round stock besides being cut down so it has a flange on back is hollowed out on each end with cheep bearings in  them. 

I think I could get someone to do them for me now that I have seen them.  I have a brother in law with a lathe. 

Ox  The changing of the drive wheel was the start of getting things better.  I did have ebbs and flows after that with getting good cut and then losing it.  Speed was the second thing for me as I was going at ove 8000 fpm.  By the way ox,  You were the first to notice the drive wheel being on the wrong side and I think it was also like your first post on this forum.  It was lucky for me that you joined when you did.

I have had lots of little issues and still do some times.  One now is how long a blade last.  I am better now that I grind on them but still am not going to get 1000 bf of lumber from one. 

Josh
If I was you, I would be getting ten blades (about $200)  while I was tuning in my mill.  You really need good blades when trying things so that you are working with one thing that you don't need to worry about.  They will not cut that much wood.  Once you get the bugs out you can then go back and play with the blades and try and get a few more boards out of them.  When fixing the mill.  If you are getting close, go ahead and put a new blade on it just to see what you have when every thing is best.  If you change something major, put a new blade on to try it out.  When you know you have it, go back and try for more boards out of the used blades.

I think the guides make a mill, I am glad that I got my mill cutting some pretty decent boards before adding the guides that leggman made for me.  The reason I say this is cause then when adding the guides, if you have problims, you can be pretty sure of where the problim is, the last thing you did, adding guides.  It keeps you from doing a scatter gun attack on your mill where you change so much at once that you don't have an Ideal of which helped and which hurt.  Make no mistake in what I am saying, You get better boards using guides.  I am more talking of a way to solve problims by insulating them one by one and trying the adjustments you have made to see what effect they have had.

I feel you pain on the major changes like drive wheel and stuff like that.  Been there and done that and all I can say is I cut alot of boards for my hobbies.  You will too.
Good luck
gww

Ps You guys got me excited enough to start my mill today.  I made one cut on a pretty big log and then quit for the day.  I did haul off a bunch of sawdust and make a pile.  I haven't used the mill for probly a month and a half.  I did plane 13 boards day before yesterday so I could keep building bee hive stuff.  I am compleetly out of one bys now and cut maby three logs in december to get some stickered and drying for next year.

[gww]

Besides building bee hive stuff the last thing I built was a king size head board for my daughter.  I am slopy and don't like doing furnature type stuff cause I just don't care.  Hopefully she will take a ball teen hammer and chain to it to make it look old and then the lack of much sanding and the one gap (so far) wont show so bad.



 
Cheers
gww

[Ox]

You're too hard on yourself - it looks great.  Rustic is the best look there ever was.  It looks good and sturdy

[mazdathumps]

Oh man, lots to reply to... hope i don't forget some things...

GWW, the head board looks nice... I have built a few headboards, but never with my own milled wood... That seems exciting... Also glad we got you back on the saw today...

As for the metal lathe... There is a long story behind this, but to keep it short, I was given one (like a real nice big one) but have no way to get it home or unloaded once it's here... It only needs a new motor... The problem is it weighs like 5000 pounds and is like 8 feet long... My tractor would collapse under that weight... lol  I will probably end up just buying the Cook's guides since they are proven to be liked by everyone that has had them...

Yesterday, I nearly drilled a 6" phillips bit (yes a #2 phillips bit) through my thumb when it slipped off the screw head, so today has been less productive than normal for me since my thumb feels like it was hit with a sledge hammer... Anyways, I was able to tear down the saw today, leaving the axles and hubs to keep them aligned (don't want to go through all that again)... I've decided to just flip the whole thing end over end and reattach all my items to the top... This will put my drive wheel on the right and pull the blade through instead of pushing it through... I may be done tomorrow with that since I don't like to not finish something once I start... I have uploaded a few pictures of the tear down... Looks lonely with nothing on the frame, but it's all going to work correctly soon...


This is the currently used setup from the back... This will all be flipped end over end and all the stuff on top willl be welded to the [new] top...


Just another view of the current setup... I pulled the guides off after my last cut, so don't waste your time looking for them in these pictures...

Not sure why it won't let me upload more... I'll keep trying and post the others of the tear down... There's only 2 more, but it won't let me uplaod...

[Kbeitz]

Did you think about putting in a jack shaft and just turning your engine around ?

[gww]

Josh
That mill looks like a very solid base.  Your enthusiasm for the "ideal" of using your own wood to do stuff makes me think that even with the real hard work of actually cutting your own wood, You are going to be the type that gets pleasure out of having your own mill. 

I hope your gaurds are not too affected on the flipping of your platform.

Sorry about your finger, on the other hand, it is hard to get hurt when sitting in an easy chair eating potato chips.  You are out getting it and so some pain is to be expected.

I never use any fluid when cutting any more.  I did when I first built it but ended up likeing it better with out it.  I don't cut pine though.  I do keep a little squirt bottle hanging by my hand that I can give it a squirt if I needed to.  I don't squirt very often either though. 

I like what you got going and am dissapointed you couldn't get the other pictures to work.  You got one on so I don't know what could be wrong.  Maby you reached a data limmit due to size or amount in one post or something.

I don't expect you to feel obligated to answer everything that I post cause I am retired and may have more time then you.  I do get genuine pleasure out of getting updates to what you are doing and how things you tried worked or didn't work.  I might learn something.

I really think your mill looks good and when you get the bugs out is going to be a pretty solid work horse.

Ox being so supportive when I was working on my mill was a real moral booster.  I see he hasn't changed by his last post.  He always makes me feel good about myself.
Good luck with your tweeks and I wish you the best.
Forgive all my spelling mistakes.
gww

[mazdathumps]

Did you think about putting in a jack shaft and just turning your engine around ?

My reason for flipping the saw instead of changing setup was due to the different items that would have to be changed, such as the log bed would then have to be setup differently... I also wanted to throw the sawdust into the vacant land behind me instead of all over my stuff (right or wrong, it's the truth)... I battled with a couple options and this seemed best for what i'm working with... Trust me, I just wish I would have done it right the first time around...

[mazdathumps]

GWW, I could tell that you and OX seem to be on the same page and I'm pretty happy that ya'll are taking the time to help me get my saw issues ironed out... I appreciate you two and everyone elses help... I have nobody around here to go talk with or look at their mills... All the folks around me only know one saw and it's a Woodmizer (there are no others in their eyes)... We have a pretty big sawmill about 20 minutes from me, but it's like a full on 24/7 mill with lots of people hired on... I did hear that he started out with a homemade bandsaw mill tho... pretty cool to think about...

The water line on mine is pretty much there because it seemed lots of mills have them, so I followed suit... Not sure it even does anything other than piece of mind... lol

I'll try to load up these pics again... Otherwise, I'm hitting the hay and starting back on this thing in the AM...

[thecfarm]

My saying is,We all need to do something twice,so we know how to do it the second time.
One example is when we go away,like a vacation. If we go back to the same area we know what areas to go to and what areas to keep away from.

[mazdathumps]

That's a good way to look at it... I've learned a lot by doing it twice (or more times)...

[pineywoods]

More blade guide info....Yeah, they are pricey, but worth every penny. Woodmizer guides are almost identical to cooks, and about the same money. On thing that runs up the price, is they are tempered very hard metal. Mine wore off tapered after several thousand hours. I chucked them in my lathe to turn them back flat. A carbide bit won't even scratch them...bearings, don't skimp on them. calculate how fast those little rollers turn and you'll see why.. grease,,,at the speed the rollers turn, ordinary grease will be all slung off before you get to the end of the first cut. Use good quality sealed bearings and forget the grease.

[mazdathumps]

Sounds good Pineywoods... I'm sure i'll be purchasing the Cook's or Woodmizer guides soon... It seems EVERYONE is happy with these...

GWW, I forgot to respond about the blade cover I made... It will NOT fit with the new setup, but the good thing is that was a prototype anyways (and it worked perfectly), so this time I'll make it with some heavier gauge steel or aluminum and rivet it instead of sheet metal screws which just back out from vibration...

As for progress on my mill, rebuild if we want to call it that, I manged to flip it over end over end using the same setup on my axles, hubs, tension plate, etc... I built my engine mounts and battery box and that worked out... The engine mount is a 1/4" steel plate and pretty much allows for easy swap outs on engines - 4 bolts out, new motor, 4 bolts back on, your swapped out... While redoing all of this, I wanted a kill switch (instead of choking the engine down), so I added a kill switch and new solenoid just because...

Now on to my problems, that once again will need some repairs... Trying to mount the tension pulley and lever has whooped me, so far... Apparently, it matters which side of the belt you engage the pulley... After building, welding, and painting the new bracket, I have a very wobbly belt even with much tension on it... I will have to swap the side of the belt that the pulley engages on, which looks like a rebuild, reweld, and trial and error.........AGAIN.......

Another issue i'm having is my pillow block bearings... The set screw holes on some of them have small cracks coming from them, not allowing me to torque the set screws down as tight as they need to be... Thus causing my axle to slip around, throwing off my alignment... Hopefully, this will only require the purchase of pillow block bearings, replace, and be done with...

So, there's my update on the troubleshooting... I think I'll give her a break for a couple days, it's wearing me thin right now, plus I have to work 12 hour nights this weekend and sleep some of the day, which is taxing as it is...

Thanks everyone for the help and info... As always, I can't begin to thank everyone enough... I should be back on in a few days...