Building sawmill (newbie)

[Georgia088]

Ok guys. I wasn't able to work on the saw after I read the last few comments so hopefully i will be able to work on it some Tom. And try some of your suggestions.

I'm still a little confused as to exactly how you are explaining to check the blade.  When you say "bunks" are you talking about the 2" tubing cross members (white in pictures) that is welded to the bottom of the tracks?

When you are putting the level to check for plumb, are you checking to see that the blade where it comes around the bottom of the tire is plumb with where it comes around the top of the tire?

I only made two cuts with it today after changing my wheels so that the mill frame sits plumb and I removed my blade guides.

It still seems to dive as soon as I enter the log (picture of cut below). After the first 1-1/2 feet, it straitened out. Well it's not perfect by any stretch but passable for me at this point.

I didn't realize that the blade guides should push the blade down 1/4". When I had them on there I didn't set them up like that... But that seems to be what it does with or without the guides. It dives until the blade has some resistance from being lower into the log and then it straitens up a bit (the blade still looks as though it is being pulled down by the log during the cut).

I took a few more pictures for yall to see and maybe give more suggestions. I don't know what order they will be in:

How tight the blade is on tire with tires having about 2/3 of recommended psi

The log that the blade dives and straightens up

The adjustments I have on the non drive wheel.


  

  

  

  

 

[bkaimwood]

Hey buddy...I hear u loud and clear...I spent 6 months building a mill, and through experience, can tell u what is certain, and what is not...here goes....the theory that I had was rubber tires dissipate heat, so there's no need for a lube system is true, and proven...by me and a couple other manufacturers.... Second, the saw will cut without guides... But not consistently, so break down and spend 120 bucks for cooks roller guides... 2 of them, on the bottom, preloading the blade 1/8" or so down...put set screws in for tire camber and tow adjustment to control blade tracking....and lastly, rubber tires DON'T take the set out of a blade...oh yeah, and buy cooks blades...woodmizer and lenox are only good for carrying logs around with a loader...don't b afraid to soon the blade, slow the feed...once you get the feel for it you'll know your mill... More to come as needed...

[gww]

georgia

I'm still a little confused as to exactly how you are explaining to check the blade.  When you say "bunks" are you talking about the 2" tubing cross members (white in pictures) that is welded to the bottom of the tracks?

yes

When you are putting the level to check for plumb, are you checking to see that the blade where it comes around the bottom of the tire is plumb with where it comes around the top of the tire?

No  we are talking about putting a level on the blade close to the bottom of the tire tire and measuring down to a strait edge on your bunks that you mentioned in my first quote from you.  Your cross members, white in the picture.  you lay a level across your blade and ballanced, not long on the blade but like an +.  On the + your tires would be to the left and right and your level would be the line going up and down.  You measure down from each end of the level to a strait edge on your white bunks.

I can not speak to the tire issue.  If I had did your mill I would probly have did nothing to the tire, I would have probly put more air in then it required to stiffen them up and would have tightened the tension till it started crunching them.  I don't say that to say what you have is wrong cause I am using differrent tires and don't have experiance with that type of tire.  Maby someone else will chime in that knows more then me.  That could be about anyone.  I do think softness is not nessisarily what you want and low air pressure may ad up to softness.

None of the tire stuff should stop you from being able to get the blade running flat with the track.

On the blade guides,  there are bought mills that run with guides other then cook guides that don't use down pressure.  That being said, I personally want the down pressure guide cause even trying to get my blade flat, with down pressure guides, my guess is I have one more chance to get the blade in an isolated area flat incase I am still off a bit.

You are using a new blade and my guess is at the end of the cut your blade is sitting higher then your log.  I would think this is going to wear you blade out before its time and give you fewer boards.  In my case the most I got was 60 board feet with one blade.  I still have only got about twice that amount out of a blade after leveling my blade to my track,  I broke that blade today so I am still not smart enough yet either.  I just believe getting this part correct is a step in the right direction.

I am not a word doctor and I know when I try to explaine things I probly just confuse you more.  I hope this helps cause that is my intent and if something is still not clear please ask.  Also it bears mentioning that I am new and many comments you get on this site are from people that know more then me, so don't discount any suggestion you get but investigate it.  I am not done with mine and am going to need more help before it is over and if you see anything helpfull to me please put it forward.

I wish you the best, and please forgive all my mistyped, misspelled and misplaced words,  I am just a dumb hick.
gww

Ps  On the tire thing,  I would want my blade to run dead center cause in my mind that is where the crown would be.  Again I don't know how soft those tires are and I have no experiance, just a feeling that could be wrong.

[Magicman]

No  we are talking about putting a level on the blade

A level would be the wrong item to use because the blade teeth would contact the level and slightly raise that end.  A rigid 2' rule would be much better because it would only contact the blade in the gullet area and not possibly be interfered by a tooth.  It does not matter whether the blade is actually level.  It matters whether each end of the straight edge is exactly the same distance to the sawmill bed.


 
This way.


  
Or this way.

[gww]

Magic
A picture is worth a thousand words.  I used a level but couldn't agree with what you said about it more.  Probly why I still am not quite up to par.
Thank you
gww

[Magicman]

Magic,  I don't disagree with you and am not trying to advise running with out blade guide.

My comment was only to keep a new sawmill builder from getting the wrong impression and thinking that blade guides might not be necessary.  Remember that in addition to FF members there are also hundreds of guest reading these posts.  I too am just a reader because I have zero experience designing and building a sawmill.

[gww]

Magic

I too am just a reader because I have zero experience designing and building a sawmill.

Maby so but you have better and more helpfull pictures then me.
cheers
gww

[Joe Hillmann]

In the last group of photos you posted the rubber tire has too much pressure it is wrapping around the blade.  That is for sure taking the set out of the blade.  I don't know if the golf cart tires are strong enough to hold the blade at the proper tension and not deform around the blade like it does.

[Ox]

I only used a level for truing up the blade to the bunks because I have a rigid, true, I-beam type level.  It's the lightest and stiffest flat thing in my possession.  I hope nobody got the impression using a level for this operation meant to actually center the bubble on the blade - it was used only as a straight edge.  I put it over a downward facing tooth and stood on my head with my glasses off to make absolutely sure the level was on the blade body only and not touching any part of any tooth.  It worked well for me but not as easy or fast as MagicMan's way.   I wish I had a better way with writing.  I get so frustrated sometimes because if I could just say it and show it, it would be easy.  Thanks MagicMan for once again saying something so quick and efficient.  Your way is the best in my opinion.  Thin and flat straightedge.  I'll need to keep my eye open for something like that.  The special blade leveling tool you can buy for this purpose only seem to be about 18" long or so.
I think gww has something about getting the band to ride in the center of the tires.  You mentioned you've only got 2/3 recommended pressure in those tires.  I think it may not be enough.  We used to run 50 psi. on the other mills.  We would deflate or fill as a different way to adjust tension.  They must have been some really soft rubber with a stiff carcass because there was never a problem with the set being taken out of the teeth but I know other members have had that problem.  Your results may vary!  I can't remember what the trailer tires are recommended to be inflated to for max pressure.  Can't remember the ply rating either.  I'm guessing the golf cart tires are low ply and low pressure for soft and squishy out on a golf course.  Maximum contact patch like a flotation tire on the farm equipment.
gww - what's the max tire psi on the sidewall of your tires?  Maybe to get an idea or something here...
You can safely run 10 to 20 psi higher in most tires if there's no mechanical damage to them.  Meaning cracks, cuts, chunks missing, etc.

[Georgia088]

Thanks!

I appreciate everyone's help! The pictures are great for a dummy that has a hard time understanding simple English even if it's explained multiple times by multiple ppl. Lol. 

Here are the things I plan to look at changing and hopefully fixing:

1: increase tire pressure and retighten blade. Should I have tires balanced?

2: measure the blade compared to bunk? Just as yall stated. Thanks magic for the pictures!

3: try to get blade to run on the crown of the tire. I have adjustments for my tracking, but it doesn't seem to matter how far I "toe" my tire out, it will not track backwards against my bearing of my guide.

4: I probably need to get some more blades. I only have 2 because I wanted to see this project work before I forked out too much $ for blades that I want be able to use if I don't get this thing corrected. I know my first blade has a small kink in it that hits my guides when it goes through every revolution. I'm not sure that the blade I ha e on it now couldn't have been damaged some how through my unwise attempts at fixing things. Even though neither blade has cut more than 5-6 passes through the log.

Did I miss any suggestions? I pretty much try anything at this point. Lol
Thanks again and keep the advice coming. (Especially pictures)!

Thanks!

[coach08]

Im not sure if the question of blade tension has been covered or not,  but if not how tight should the blade be?  In the picture that magicman has, Im assuming that the wooden ruler or straight edge would change the angle of the blade....  meaning the blade is tight enough that it would hold that weight without moving.  Not sure how to put this but my question is blade tightness.

[Ga Mtn Man]

Welcome to the forum coach08.

Yes the blade should be tight enough not to be effected by the alignment tool but the alignment tool should be centered (balanced) on the blade and located as near to the blade guide as possible.  You should use the tool to check the alignment (tilt) of the blade at both blade guides.

[coach08]

Tks Ga mtn man....  (anywhere near blairsville?)      Is there a standard on how tight the blade needs to be?    extremely tight?  moderately tight?    Thanks

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, coach08.

On my WM sawmill, that question has been addressed by having a hydraulic gauge and the pressure is adjusted to the manufacturer's specifications.  How tight I do not know, but I can assure you that it is "fiddle string" tight, as in tight.

[gww]

Ox
I didn't even look at my max tire pressure and it is raining right now.  I believe I am running about 37 lbs if my guage can be trusted.  I doubt the tires are rated for 37 lbs.   I also used a 2 foot level cause it is all I could find at the time that I trusted not to be warped. 

georgia

Believe me, I understand about going through blades durring rookie mistakes and the adjustment period.  I am on my sixth blade and don't have more then 200 board foot (guess) of wood cut.  The sixth blade is cutting slow already and has only cut a few oak boards.  It has seemed differrent from all the other blades from the beginning though so I don't know what to make of that.  I am going to push it till it breaks or won't go anywhere before I break out number seven.

My thought on toeing in your tire.  My mill flexes a bit when I tension the blade and this affects my blade tracking.  What I did to start the tracking proceedure was, with no blade on the tire, I take a long strait edge and lay it across both tires and adjust the toe in till the strait edge is touching all sides of both tires at the same time.  When this happens, I know I am starting out with the tires in line with each other.  I then put the blade on and put light tension on it and then turn the tires in both directions to see what the blade is doing.  I adjust till the blade is where I want it to ride.  Then I add full tension and my mill flexes a bit more and I adjust some more till it rides where I want it.  At this point I have never gotten the blade to let me turn the tires both ways and keep the blade perfect but I have got it to track pretty well going the direction it is going to run.  I think the key is starting from a known point where the strait edge is touchin in four places on two tires, Ie; starting with the tires aligned before making adjustments. 

As far as the kinked blade.  I had the log come lose and put a kink in my very first blade and I ran it till it would not cut.  It was a small kink.  The problim is it is always in your mind that that might be the cause and not something else.  It is a judgement call on your part wether you can tell what is what.  I hurt everytime I have to use a blade and don't get my moneys worth of boards.  I have cut two logs worth of boards into fire wood due to wavy cuts.  It does get a little better with each improvement you make to your mill but is an added cost that is more then a guy would think.  And, I am still not where I need to be.

Good  luck
gww

[gww]

Georgia
On blade tightness,  A guage like magic mentioned is the surest way of knowing how tight a blade is.  When dealing with non industerial materieals as we are me may never get the level that a good engineered mill can get.  I know nothing about tensioning and have not cut enough wood to tell what affects what.  I broke a blade yesterday, was too much tension part of the problim?  I can pass on suggestions (good or bad) that were made to me when trying to figure out what tension to use. 
1. suggestion was to put the proper air in the tire and then tighten the band till the tire is crunching and then losen it till the tire just comes out of the crunch and that would be what your tire could take.

2.  was to watch blade flutter and to tighten just till the blade flutter disapeared.  (my blade flutter would never compleatly disapear unless I balance my tires and have them rounded)

I don't even know if these are good or bad advice.  One manufactured mill uses a tourque wrench on the tension nut and I believe it is set at 35 lbs but I am not 100 percent sure of my memory.  I have not used tourque wrenches enough to know by feel what 35 lbs means but have a feelling that with my tension set up that 35lbs on my tension bolt might just fold my mill in half.  I do know if I ever have access to a torsion bar I may try it.
Good luck
gww

[DMcCoy]

Wow, is that the tire belting showing?
That blade looks like a overly tight waist belt on a old, fat golfer.
I understand trying to save some cash and use what you have, but that looks like constant heartache, problems, perhaps dangerous.  Looks like you have it so tight, if that tire ruptures I would not want to be anyway near that thing.  A blown tire and fast moving band saw blade?  Oh my gosh!  I'm not sure exactly what it is you are trying to achieve, but that doesn't look right. 
I have never used a tire type mill or ever seen one run.  People swear it can be done but any factory built mills that I'm aware of use pulleys with belts.


 

[Ox]

Tires are run on thousands of mills around the world.  Tires,  pulleys with belts or all metal band wheels each have their different strengths.  Each one will do the job of running a band blade.  Each mill running running whichever system will say why it's the best.  Kinda like buying a new car I guess.

[fishpharmer]

Georgia088 welcome to forestryforum!

I have never used a tire type mill or ever seen one run.  People swear it can be done but any factory built mills that I'm aware of use pulleys with belts.

If you search and read through FF, you will find the there are quite a lot of very functional home made bandsaw mills using pneumatic tires as bandwheels.  They are a very economical alternative to all metal and belted metal bandwheels.  There is at least one commercial manufacturer exclusively using pneumatic tires for bandwheels.  Turnermills, they have a website.  That being said, I never knew about them either until I starting building my mill and found FF.

fish

[DMcCoy]

Not saying it can't be done and done well.  But it looks like something isn't right, like too much tension for a tire type system.  I have no idea about tire mills but, it looks to me that the tire belting is showing(?) Using a tire that is already pinched in the middle, bulging, and belts showing?  Where are the guards?  I love watching people building mills, don't get me wrong, I really enjoy and encourage it.  But, I never want to see someone get hurt, takes all the fun out of it for me, and this looks unsafe.  I already know too many people who are missing fingers, eyes, or have lots of scar tissue.

[Georgia088]

Does the blade need to run in the center of the tire?
Thanks!

[gww]

georgia

Quote from me in an earlier post;

Ps  On the tire thing,  I would want my blade to run dead center cause in my mind that is where the crown would be.  Again I don't know how soft those tires are and I have no experiance, just a feeling that could be wrong.

Take it for what it is worth.
gww

[valley ranch]

Greetings, If you take your time and reread Magicman's posts and picture mechanically what he's describing, you'll have the answer.

If your question is asked in a way that he know what you're asking, his post will be textbook. 

[Ox]

what valley ranch said x2
what gww saide x2
You want the blade to run on the center of the tires for maximum crown effect.
Run higher tire pressures to take the bulging of the tires away some.
The crown, or highest part of the tires, helps the blade stay where you want it.
Adding pressure to the tires will work up to a certain point then the rubber will start wrapping around the blade more than anything.  This would be considered your maximum blade tension.

[Georgia088]

I have done the measurements that magic man describes. However regardless of whether I have the blade the same distance from the tracks as he describes, or even if I have the teeth higher (pointed upward going into the log). The blade still dives when it enters the log. Any ideas?
Thanks!