Tree farmer 1972

[North River Energy]

^What he said. 
Before starting an unfamiliar piece of equipment, I make sure I know how to shut it down. 

That tubular rod running parallel to the valve train is the actuator for the injector racks.  The rack position determines fuel delivery. If you disconnect that from the governor link, it should 'roll' back and forth easily.
If it doesn't move easily, then the engine might get stuck at full or partial throttle.

Roll the engine over with the valve cover off and see if each injector plunger moves up and down in time with each middle rocker arm.
On several occasions, I've seen plungers stick in the 'down' position on engines that sat for a long time. If so, you'll need to either free them up, or replace the injectors.
Sometimes the crossover fuel lines can pit through, and leak diesel into the crankcase.

Detroits are fairly simple once you familiarize yourself with the operating principles.

Looks like fun project.

And get a good set of cans for your ears.

[ga jones]

That's TFS 191 cotta transfer case Chelsea pto. All the parts are available new if you want to pay the price. Cotta is still in business and Will make the parts if you want them bad enough. Detroit has one cam shaft and one balance shaft. Davco in Farmington Maine has most parts in stock. I have a break down of that transfer case

[bigred1951]

This skidder was pretty close to me. I had called about it but just never got around to go look at it. Hope it all works out.

[crazy4saws]

Hope everyone is enjoying their Labor Day weekend!

Removed cotta transfer case, both fuel filters and the starter yesterday. Pressure washed the outside of the transfer case and drained the oil.

 

The starter would work but needed a push from a screw driver to start. Tore the starter apart and found the brush springs were sticking and the armature was dirty. I figure I might aswell replace the brushes while its apart. The manual says to remove the plugs on the starter house and add oil to these spots to keep the wick wet and lube the bushings. It didnt say what kind of oil. Any recommendations? 

 


 

Picking up the fuel filters from napa this afternoon. I hope to get some sweg lock fittings and stainless tubing to replace some of the fuel lines.

Been kicking around the idea of buying a cheap sandblaster and cleaning up these parts I have off then painting them with a high heat or engine paint. Any recommendations.

Ive read the manual covering general information and the lubrication system. I didnt see any info of what type engine oil to use during what temperature and so forth. What do you guys suggest?

GA Jones has said the axles on this skidder are Rockwell PR52. Where is the model or information on these axles? I know Im going to tear into in the front one as the drive shaft going into the differential has a worn out bearing.

Thanks guys 

[beenthere]

The starter would work but needed a push from a screw driver to start.

How does one push a starter with a screw driver? just curious.....

[crazy4saws]

Hey beenthere, I had the starter sitting on the bench with a 12volt battery hooked up. I watched The voltage drop via a meter and whenever I energized the solenoid coil no change. The starter would spin freely. So I took a screw driver, placed it on the gear and pushed this spinning the shaft. While doing this I applied voltage to the opposite side of solenoid. The starter would take off so to me that says it's working but needs cleaned up. That's just what I've found on other equipment.

I tested the solenoid separately and it does work.

The springs that push the brushes against the armature were sticking and not allowing contact.

What are your thoughts?

[chester_tree _farmah]

The axle numbers are on a small metal tag riveted to the outside of axle tube. If you still have a tag you are a lucky man! If u do have one please share it. Be interested to see the numbers.

There are a few posts on here about which oil is best in a Detroit. Not sure you will find agreement on one but if u search you will find opinions for sure.

Paint won't make a difference on heavy castings like that but it will definitely look good. Getting all the grease off and crap out of that compartment is the important thing to help prevent fires.

What was on it for a brake? Was it converted to disc or have the drum?

Looks good. Keep up the good work.

Question to others. Will the cotta transfer case on c4 models with the winch behind the seat accept a pto? I checked my transfer case and there is a flat cover bolted over where that pto mounts in the picture above. I would like to move my winch to the rear section when I build a better cab. I know a hydraulic motor would be best but I don't use it fulltime and $ is a factor.

Thanks CTF

[ga jones]

Yes u can put a pto on it. The rotation may be an issue. It depends on witch transfer case you have and the winch your using.

[chester_tree _farmah]

Yes u can put a pto on it. The rotation may be an issue. It depends on witch transfer case you have and the winch your using.

Thank you sir.  It is the old Gearmatic 9.

[ga jones]

I do believe you must get the pto from Davco

[Corley5]

It may be worth your time and $$$ to take the starter to an auto electric shop and have it rebuilt

[ga jones]

Yes I agree about the starter. It's under 150.00 here. I have a rebuilt in stock if you can't get it done reasonable.

[North River Energy]

Zendex makes a handy spot blaster. I use it mostly for weld/braze prep on cast, or where I don't want to thin the metal with a grinder. Just make sure you mask off any crucial surfaces, as the grit gets into everything.


 
As to the oil for motor bushings and the like, I use Velocite spindle oil, mostly because I have it on hand for the milling machines.  You want something light that won't gum up or get stiff at lower temperatures.
Make sure the solenoid plunger/bore is free of oil/grease.

[coxy]

Hey beenthere, I had the starter sitting on the bench with a 12volt battery hooked up. I watched The voltage drop via a meter and whenever I energized the solenoid coil no change. The starter would spin freely. So I took a screw driver, placed it on the gear and pushed this spinning the shaft. While doing this I applied voltage to the opposite side of solenoid. The starter would take off so to me that says it's working but needs cleaned up. That's just what I've found on other equipment.

I tested the solenoid separately and it does work.

The springs that push the brushes against the armature were sticking and not allowing contact.

What are your thoughts?

when testing the solenoid separately  do you hook it up the same way as trying to use the starter but not bolted to it never heard/seen this done before

[crazy4saws]

Coxy you could test the solenoid by applying voltage to the smaller post. However if you energize a coil with no load in the magnetic field you could damage the coil or short it. Either put the plunger back in the "socket" or coil because the plunger is pulled in when the coil is energized or put a screw driver it the socket so you dont burn up the coil. Im terrible at explaining things. Maybe this week I can put together a video of what IM talking about.

As to why I needed to use the screw driver to "push" the gear thus getting the starter to begin spinning. I believe it was due to the brushes not making full contact on the armature. 

Ive got a place in town Im gonna try and get parts for the starter from.

I started pulling the ransfer case apart today. Its definataly gonna need alot more work han I orignally thought.

Chester, I havent even dug into the brake system yet. By the end of this week I hope to have the starter, fuel filters and air filter back on. If I find tags on my axle I will most defiantly post pics.
Thanks guys

[crazy4saws]

Zendex makes a handy spot blaster. I use it mostly for weld/braze prep on cast, or where I don't want to thin the metal with a grinder. Just make sure you mask off any crucial surfaces, as the grit gets into everything.


 
As to the oil for motor bushings and the like, I use Velocite spindle oil, mostly because I have it on hand for the milling machines.  You want something light that won't gum up or get stiff at lower temperatures.
Make sure the solenoid plunger/bore is free of oil/grease.

Thanks North River Energy for info. Ill post a pic of my sand blasting rig. its nothing special just borrowed it from a buddy. I cleaned up alot of parts with it today but need to buy more sand. Ill be posting pics of the cleaned parts before priming and then painted. I know its not necessary and might not stay on but atleast the parts will be cleaner when it comes time for an engine rebuild.

Ill have to check out velocite and see if I can get some. 

[crazy4saws]

Started the tear down of the Cotta Transfer case today. All in all not as bad as I figured it would be as the bearings were very worn. There are a few things I would like some expert opinions on.If Im asking too many questions just let me know. This is my first time working on alot of this kind of stuff so some questions may seem like common knowledge to those of you who have a few or more heavy equipment repairs under your belt. Thanks for the patience.

Enjoy the pictures
#1

 
#2 Im pointing to what I believe is wear on these two gears. Should they be replaced?

 
#3 This one shows the location of the gears.

 
#4 Below is the bottom splined shaft. One end goes to the front axle the other to the rear. Is this wear on the splined shaft or is this normal? Does the spline shaft need replaced?

 
#5  pic of the gears in the top portion of the case

   #6 is this a casting mark or blemish?

 
#7 these shavings(looks like brass to me) where all found in the dip or cup that the needle is pointing to. this dip seems to hold oil for the upper bearing, probably so during inital start up its not ran dry? However I can not seem to find any brass parts in this case so Im not sure where it came from.

 
#8 Chealse PTO which is bolted on top of case directly above upper bearing were I found all the brass shavings. Still no brass shavings or parts that I can see.

  
#9 the bearings, left side is bottom bearings, then middle and right side is top bearings. Im going to confirm in the IPL but I beleive someone put in a regular ball bearing for the lower bearing instead of a timken taper bearing. 

 
#10  just a pic of the cover

 


Cotta emailed me back today with a generic service and maintenance manual and parts list. very detailed. I hope to finish breaking it down by the end of the week and get together a parts list.

In the mean time any expert advice or personal experience on some of my questions above is greatly appreciated. . Thank you guys for all your help and time. Hopefu

[bushmechanic]

Well done crazy4saws your underway for a rebuild. In pic #2 those gears are worn pretty good and should be replaced but they will more than likely still work ok. That wear comes from shifting hi to low or reverse, and is made worse by not coming to a complete stop before shifting or jamming into gear. In pic#4 that is worn from the nut that holds the yoke coming loose you don't need to replace it unless there is a lot of play in the splines. Make sure to tighten the yoke nut real good to avoid this. I would say #6 is a casting mark. Looks good some new bearings and seals will go a long ways in that transfer case.

[ga jones]

Like bushmechaic said Pic 4 is from shifting. Did you find the detent ball and spring? They need to be replaced. That gives you positive shift.all the bearings and seals can be found at BDU .do you still need the break down?

[tantoy]

I agree with bushmechanic, I would say #2 gear wear i would not be to concerned unless it was popping out of gear.
#4 , the small step where you are pointing looks like where the bearing is pressed on?

[chester_tree _farmah]

The shavings are most likely from a worn or disingrated bearing race section. Some are made with plated bronze. It could have been replaced already but they may have not cleaned it out? I am thinking anyway.

[Ed_K]

Check your yokes I had to put speedy sleeves on mine.

[crazy4saws]

Thanks Bushmechanic for the encouragement and the explanation on this tear down. I"ll get the prices on those two gears and see how much they are. A typical in town machine shop wouldn't make these right?

Tantoy, my first instinct is to just reuse the gears however I dont want the wear to tranfers to a good gear or get it all together just to have it pop out of gear or fail later. Would like to get her running and put some time on it first before investing too much. I guess the true factor will be the price.

Chester, good suggestion I like your theories. That very well could have happened, I believe all that I can do is clean it up real good , and use good parts. 

Ed K, I wasnt sure what speedy sleeves were until I googled them. Wow excellent suggestion. I believe I will invest in those when I put the universals or yokes back together.

Like bushmechaic said Pic 4 is from shifting. Did you find the detent ball and spring? They need to be replaced. That gives you positive shift.all the bearings and seals can be found at BDU .do you still need the break down?

GA Jones, Yes I found the detent balls. Here is a pic, I just forgot to post it when I did everything else. 

 

Per the manual both should have been springs with a ball, however the one seems to have a spring and stem.

No Cotta has me covered on the parts break down. However if you are still able to get me the breakdown for the rockwell axles I would really appreciate it.

BDU, is this a website? I tried googling it but nothing came of it besides battle dress uniforms! I called Davco the other day and they were suppose to call me back with a price on some parts but never did. I asked for John, because in other posts people mentioned him as someone withalot of tree farmer knowledge. The guy said he no longer works thre. Bummer.

I feel like Im making headway however there is still alot to do before its ready for a test run. Kinda overwhelming at times but learning and having fun on something Ive always wanted to own seems to keep things exciting.

Thanks again guys for all the help and support. Id still be debating over whether to purchase it or not haha

[DeerMeadowFarm]

Loving this thread....

[ga jones]

Bearings and drives unlimited. Davco without john is a real bummer!!! There is no other source for these real old machines though. I would call them back and ask what's going on.some of the stuff is generic you can get anywhere but not all. Those pr52 axles came in timberjack's to and in case wheel loaders and 680k backhoes.Aftermarket parts inc. North Carolina is who makes most of the forestry stuff you can't get from OEM. Call them direct for axle stuff. The transmission is from a ford truck.sometimes it's just easier to get from Davco rather than chasing and spending all day on the phone.