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Author Topic: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25  (Read 5524 times)

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Offline AnthonyW

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Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« on: September 02, 2015, 07:24:37 PM »
So I've put a few hours in running the mill. I make pretty good cutting rate until one of two things happens. I have to load another log or I have to raise the head up for edging or start the next log.  With equipment and/or help I can speed up the loading. But I need to come up with a way for a power lift for the mill head. Lowering the head is easy, raising it takes some time. It takes too much time (and effort, I need a break afterwards) to raise the head from the last cut at 4/4 to the first cut at 20+ inches (at ~4 cranks per inch that's 80+ cranks).

Here's something I have been brainstorming. The lower gear on the head lift is an idler with bearings built into the gear. What if that gear was replaced by one with a keyed shaft that ended out both sides of the current mounting bracket and added carrier bearings. Basically swapping the idler gear for a drive gear. To one end add one half of split coupling. Mount a motor to the frame at the front of the mill with the other half of the coupling. When the head is all the way forward the couplings engage and the motor can be used to raise the head. Yes, I could only use the power lift at the very front of the mill, but that seems the only time I need to raise the head long distances. This design would leave the hand crank available for other and small adjustments.

Thoughts?
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2015, 07:43:46 PM »
Wheel chair gearbox motor...

 

 
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2015, 07:45:39 PM »
........................
 

 
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Offline jmouton

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2015, 08:56:00 PM »
HMMMMM   your giving me ideas for our lt-25,,,  wheel chair motor  ,,hmmm   ,, could you still use it manually  too, 


                                                                                                                         jim
lt-40 wide ,fiat tractor,bobcat,international flatbed,10 ton trailer, stihl 075,041,029,066,and a 2015 f-350,and a oldwheel loader ,grapple system coming soon!!

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2015, 12:11:08 AM »
HMMMMM   your giving me ideas for our lt-25,,,  wheel chair motor  ,,hmmm   ,, could you still use it manually  too, 


                                                                                                                         jim

Yep... This type of gearmotor has a lever on the side to disengage.
Just go to E-bay and type in the search "wheel chair motor".

 

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Offline 47sawdust

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2015, 05:37:35 AM »
AnthonyW,
 I like the Lt25 mill and have been following your posts as you are a fellow Swamp Yankee.I think you are properly infected with the sawmill bug and might be ready for an upgrade.Kbeitz is a clever man and his suggestion is a good one.If it were me I would be looking for a used Lt40 and forget the mods.You can sell your mill for what you paid for it and keep moving up the sawmill food chain.Whatever you do good luck and enjoy your journey.

Mick
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Offline AnthonyW

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2015, 08:43:29 AM »
I have caught the bug enough for what I am doing. I don't foresee spending the money on a full upgrade and moving to an LT40 while I am still working in another field. Maybe after I retire...30 years from now.

Thank you for the source on the motor. I prefer not to attach the motor directly to the saw head. Doing so means the weight of the motor is added to the head and I either have to add a cable chain to the mill or battery holder to the head (more weight). Having the motor mounted stationary on the mill also means the battery can be mounted nearby as well.

I was thinking of something like this
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/Shaft-Couplers/3-Piece-Flexible-Jaw-Couplers/5-8-L-050-JAW-COUPLING-HALF-1-3419-G.axd for connecting the motor to the driver on the saw head.

How easy and quickly does the dis/engage lever work on the wheelchair motor?

I noticed you have the wheelchair motor connected to a small gear reducer? In the end do you think you needed it? What mill do you have?
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2015, 09:53:36 AM »
I have a home made mill... See link below...

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,82853.0.html

the dis/engage lever work great but I never use it.
The gear reducer that your seeing is part of a worm gear winch.
I cant say if you wiil need a gear reducer on your setup.
I'm using a V-speed board and I have the gearing set so my V-speed knob is right in the middle of the speed I want.
This gives me speed one way or the other for adjustment.
Works great. I'll never go back to moveing it by hand.
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Offline AnthonyW

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 10:11:24 AM »
I have a home made mill... See link below...

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,82853.0.html

the dis/engage lever work great but I never use it.
The gear reducer that your seeing is part of a worm gear winch.
I cant say if you will need a gear reducer on your setup.
I'm using a V-speed board and I have the gearing set so my V-speed knob is right in the middle of the speed I want.
This gives me speed one way or the other for adjustment.
Works great. I'll never go back to moving it by hand.

The gears I'm speaking of have the chain around them. From the other thread it was gears you ended up adding, but since you made your own mill, there is now way to tell or even guess if I will need something similar. You other post also confirmed most of the wheelchair and mobility scooter motors are 24V which is all I would find.

I have upped my effort on finding a coupling designed to be split apart repeatedly. Lovejoy couplings are not designed for this use. The Troy-bilt Flex system and the old Gravely Model L series have something similar to what I am looking for. I could get the Gravely parts but they are expensive and would be more complicated to use as they mount to a splined shaft.
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Offline 69bronco

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2015, 01:31:31 PM »
Anthony, What are you planning to use for a motor? I've considered welding a coupling or nut to the center of the crank shaft, but I don't think there is a cordless drill that would handle it.

Offline AnthonyW

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2015, 01:37:00 PM »
Anthony, What are you planning to use for a motor? I've considered welding a coupling or nut to the center of the crank shaft, but I don't think there is a cordless drill that would handle it.

I thought the same thing (welding a nut to the handle and using a drill). For the new plan, my first thought was a gear reduced starter motor for a car. I'm also liking Kbeitz wheelchair motor option. I have also seen scooter motors available that might be 12VDC. What I really need to figure out is how much torque I need.
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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2015, 06:33:27 PM »
Ok got it.... Sprockets.... Not gears...
Wheelchair motors do come in 12 volt also.
But do an ebay search for tarp motor.
They are all 12v
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Offline kelLOGg

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2015, 05:40:29 AM »
I use a 12 vdc Warner Electric motor from Surplus Center. Small enough to still use the hand crank (if you so decide) and it allows gravity reverse.  It has been in use for ~10 years.
Bob

 

 
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2015, 09:54:53 AM »
I was thinking of stopping by a salvage yard and getting the starter from a pick up truck. I've been told they are usually gear reduced and comes with a gear preinstalled. Anyone know how fast the gear on one spins? Thoughts on how I would find a gear that could mate with it?

How about the starter from a 11HP B&S engine? I have one of those on the shelf.
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Offline kelLOGg

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2015, 12:29:18 PM »
I was thinking of stopping by a salvage yard and getting the starter from a pick up truck. I've been told they are usually gear reduced and comes with a gear preinstalled. Anyone know how fast the gear on one spins? Thoughts on how I would find a gear that could mate with it?

How about the starter from a 11HP B&S engine? I have one of those on the shelf.

I tried that with a lawn mower starter and ring gear but had trouble mounting the gear so it would mesh well. I gave up on it and went the posted route. Your situation may lend itself to a more successful solution than mine did.  Good luck with it.
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Offline sawmilljoe

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2015, 06:36:53 PM »
What about a 1 to 4 or 1 to 8 geared hand crank then you would crank it on large movement and the old one on fine adjustments

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2015, 06:40:45 PM »
A Starter is not a good idea...
Way to fast and they are not a continuous duty motor.
They also draw large amps.
Wheelchair gearbox motors  can run all day draw small amps and are geared dpwn to the speed that you need.

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Offline AnthonyW

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2015, 10:24:08 PM »
I tried that with a lawn mower starter and ring gear but had trouble mounting the gear so it would mesh well. I gave up on it and went the posted route. Your situation may lend itself to a more successful solution than mine did.  Good luck with it.
Bob

A Starter is not a good idea...
Way to fast and they are not a continuous duty motor.
They also draw large amps.
Wheelchair gearbox motors can run all day draw small amps and are geared down to the speed that you need.

Since the motor isn't running continuously, that isn't too large of a concern.

Current draw may be a concern, so I was thinking the 1 cylinder B&S starter instead of the starter 8 cylinder GM Vortec V8 would require less current. I like the idea of the 12V motors over the 24V motors (wheelchair). The tarp motors seem pricey, whereas I can hopefully pull a starter at the scrap yard for much less. I have a B&S starter downstairs, I will look at the mounting options and see if I can determine the RPM and current draw.

Speed is relative. In my head I was picturing how the starter motor is mounted and engages in an automobile (or lawn tractor). I was thinking it could be mounted nearly the same way. The lower chain sprocket driven by a larger spur or ring gear. The larger gear would provide the offset required to allow the motor to clear the mast frame while also providing gear reduction for reducing speed and load (I do love a two-for-one). But I don't know if I can fit a gear by the sprocket large enough to achieve all the goals. Missing anyone of them would be a no go. What I need to remember to do tomorrow while running the mill is to measure the torque required to raise the head.
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2015, 06:29:23 AM »
We are not aloud to link to E-bay.
But if you type in "12v dc gear motor" in the search you will see some are sold as low as $19.00 .
By the time you buy sprockets or what ever you use to get the speed down you would be much
better off with a low amp gear motor.
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2015, 06:29:47 AM »
Cook's MP-32, 16HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
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Offline AnthonyW

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2015, 11:20:00 PM »
I wasn't following the reason for the link, until I found the posting on calculating the torque required. Slick, very slick. Will do tomorrow if time permits.

I prefer to not have the motor attached all the time for two reasons. (1) I don't plan on having the power source available (ie., mounted to the mast or head) so I won't have power down which brings us to (2) during hand cranking, I would be reverse driving the motor's gear box, I don't need the extra load when muscling the head up/down nor the extra wear on that gear train.

The sprocket required is the same as the on that already exists, but needs to be changed from idler to drive. The gears I'm adding are to allow the motor to be disconnected from the mast. Power drive will only be available when at the very front of the mill and I'm fine with that. One gear is attached to the same shaft as the replaced sprocket, larger in diameter than the drive gear on the motor. In this arrangement I get a method to disconnect and gear reduction at the same time.

I will see if I can get some pics and sketch my plan.

Thank you all for the input, suggestions, and sources.
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Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2015, 12:22:46 AM »
From your description, I take it the crank is on the saw head trolley, not the actual saw frame.  How about a spoke pulley on the gear train or the crank itself and on the motor, a fork-like end on the shaft?  The fork will easily mesh with the spokes when you back into it.  Very little alignment necessary (like a spline).  Just need the center of rotation on both part to be reasonably close.
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2015, 02:10:57 AM »
Again this is why I use wheel chair gear box motors...

 

 
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2015, 08:21:37 AM »
Again this is why I use wheel chair gear box motors...

 

 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

I was thinking the disconnect lever was to remove the motor from the gear box. I take it the lever is to "put it in neutral"? I wonder how much back drag there is in the gear box when disconnected from the motor. I will need to look for a 12V version.
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2015, 10:52:02 AM »
You can turn the output shaft with your fingers when disconnected.
Remember that you can use a 24v motor on your unit. But it will only run around 1/2 speed.
But there is 12 volt wheelchair motors out there.
You could also just buy the gearbox off a wheelchair and put a 12v c-face motor on it.

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2015, 09:23:44 AM »
Anthony, have you figured the torque to raise the 25 yet?

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2015, 06:07:42 PM »
Anthony, have you figured the torque to raise the 25 yet?
The torque depends on your speed....
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2015, 06:42:03 PM »
So to figure how many in.lbs you will need in a motor, you have to know the speed? You lost me there, but that's not hard to do sometimes!

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2015, 07:29:17 PM »
You lost me....

You need more torque to move the mill head fast. A watch motor could move it if you move it slow enough.
It takes more Hp to make more torque to make more speed.

Wheel chair motors come in all sizes,...
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2015, 09:23:44 PM »
You lost me....

You need more torque to move the mill head fast. A watch motor could move it if you move it slow enough.
It takes more Hp to make more torque to make more speed.

Wheel chair motors come in all sizes,...

Torque is inch-pounds. No dependency on time. Horsepower is torque per time. More horsepower means the torque can be applied for a longer time (think of the power a horse can provide...before it gets tired).

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2015, 09:30:18 PM »
is that one horse power then :D :D :D :D



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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2015, 09:38:42 PM »
Anthony, have you figured the torque to raise the 25 yet?

I think some disassembly and clean-up may be in order.

I followed http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,16775.20.html reply #22.

The center to center distance from the drive sprocket to the crank handle is 5.5" and took 2 1/2 gallons of water to move the handle from the 1:00 to the 5:00 position. At 8.34 lbs/gal and 5.5", it required 115 inch-pounds to move the handle. To raise the head 30 inches in 30 seconds (or 1" per second which is about the rate I can crank it) would require a 1/2HP motor when connected in direct drive. Adding a gear box or gear reduction to the system will decrease the HP requirement. Adding a 4:1 gear box to the 1/2HP would provide a 4x safety margin. The next factor is the current draw. Slower motor rotation requires more current. Increasing the gear ratio will allow the motor to run proportionally faster while decreasing the current requirement.

I think it would be most effective to pull the sprockets off the mast and check and clean the bearings.
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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2015, 09:40:25 PM »
is that one horse power then :D :D :D :D



                                                                                                   jim

Nothing to laugh at. That's where the term horsepower came from; the amount of work a horse can do in a given amount of time before it got tired.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Offline 69bronco

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2015, 06:33:29 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up, thought I was losing it there for awhile!

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Alternative for powered raising saw head on LT25
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2015, 09:25:54 PM »
Horsepower:
A unit that is used to measure the power of engines and motors. One unit of horsepower is equal to the power needed to lift 550 pounds one foot in one second. This unit has been widely replaced by the watt in scientific usage; one horsepower is equal to 745.7 watts.

And:
This term was coined by James Watt, who invented a new type of steam engine in the eighteenth century. Watt found that the horse could do a certain amount of work per second; when he sold his steam engines, this measurement allowed him to estimate the worth of an engine in terms of the number of horses it would replace. Therefore, a six-horsepower engine was capable of replacing six horses.

However:
1806, established by Watt as the power needed to lift 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute, which is actually about 1.5 times the power of a strong horse.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.


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