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Author Topic: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?  (Read 4521 times)

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Offline sandsawmill14

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2016, 07:32:25 AM »
dobie we bought 106 acre of mostly timberland back about 10 yrs ago and the bank told us what we cut in the first year would not be taxable as we were repaying our investment so its something to think about or at least check into and see if its still that way the pic looks like pretty good mature timber to be but like was already said you cant judge a stand from a few pics  good luck :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2016, 09:52:58 AM »
Up here that works if your a logger or farmer with a management plan being followed. Just buying land and cutting wood without a plan and that is not part of a business, doesn't have exemptions. That took a long time to even get that lenience. The tax man wanted tax on all wood sales. At one time woodlots were targets for senior care. The guy that had assets had to pay, while his neighbour got a free ride. Now it wouldn't bother me if I had no relatives to leave it to. But if I had family, why should they take the family woodlot and the neighbour pays nothing for his care? And they could go back ten years, so if you deeded the place over 5 years ago, too bad for your family.
Move'n on.

Offline Dobie

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2016, 01:43:50 PM »
I'm glad it's working out for you, but you brought up another question I've been wondering about for some time.  I hear about people who buy a plot of forest land and sell the trees for enough to pay for the land and build a house.  Cool, but why would anybody sell land for less money than the trees are worth?


The timber appraisal was from 2009 and showed the timber value was 65% of our purchase price..  2009 is when timber markets crashed and the pricing in the appraisal reflected that.



Offline Dobie

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2016, 01:47:14 PM »
Common practice, especially with real estate agents is to ignore trees.  They have absolutely no concern for value.  They appraise real estate by looking at what similar properties sold for in a particular area. 

Many years ago, I did a management plan and timber appraisal for a client that had recently bought a nice piece of land.  The value of the timber was about 20% higher then he paid for the total.  I figured it would be a good selling point to go to realtors and point out that doing a timber appraisal on forested land would be warranted.  That particular realtor said he didn't care, as he sold the property and he got paid.  I never got a realtor to do a timber appraisal.  That hasn't changed.

You would think landowners would do the same when they sell property.  That don't seem to be too concerned about timber value when they sell trees, why would they worry about it when they sell the land?  You see the same thing on shows like Antique Roadshow where someone finds a really valuable item that they bought dirt cheap because the seller had no knowledge.  Same goes for trees.

Buyers are equally ignorant as they also won't spring for an appraisal, even though it is to their advantage from a tax and investment standpoint.  Buyer beware is always something they should be aware of.  The value of bare land should be established, and then you make a decision whether it's a good buy or not.  Not all land is created equal, and not all real estate is equally valued.

I fought that battle for many years.  I even went to banks that were putting money into these purchases, pointing out that they may be financing more than they think.  I couldn't crack the market, as the professionals were always smarter than me.  So, I walked away from that side of the industry.  I learned early on that the value of anything is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller for any item - marked value doesn't matter.




I just scratch my head.   There are times to be frugal with your money and there are times when it is worth it to get professional advice. 


In my opinion, foresters are worth their weight in gold. 

Offline Dobie

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2016, 01:53:59 PM »
Swampdonkyey and sandsawmill,


We have learned the hard way to establish a cost basis for timber when buying it as an investment.   This is why we don't mind paying a good accountant $400 do to our taxes vs the $29.99 advertised special you see in malls with someone who has 2 weeks of tax preparation training.    Once you get hit with a $10,000 - $20,000 tax bill, that $400 accountant seems downright reasonable. 


We've also learned from a good accountant the benefits of a 1031 like kind exchange.  Good Lord that has saved us a ton of money in the past though it didn't come into play here.

Offline WildlandFirefighter912

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2016, 12:11:28 PM »
You need a good stewardship plan. Talk with your State forester and see if they can work one up for you.

The timber business is like anything else..you win sometimes...and sometimes you lose. Supply and demand.

Main thing I'm seeing is the decline of forest. Everyone is converting to agriculture fields or real estate.


I'm a tree man. I"m for protecting this renewalable resource and it's animals. If i make money for logging. Good. If i lose out some..oh well.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2016, 03:11:58 PM »
Up our way we have lots of trees but a lot of people don't let them mature anymore. 80 years was suppose to be the rotation age. Well that hasn't been followed for nearly 20 years once the mature timber got more scarce.
Move'n on.

Offline WildlandFirefighter912

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2016, 03:54:01 PM »
Up our way we have lots of trees but a lot of people don't let them mature anymore. 80 years was suppose to be the rotation age. Well that hasn't been followed for nearly 20 years once the mature timber got more scarce.

People want money is the main reason. Not to mention a study showing that older timber doesnt clean the air as quickly as younger timber.. supposedly.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2016, 04:02:09 PM »
Yeah but an 80 year old red spruce is far from extreme age for a species that lives over 400 years. And a 30 year old balsam fir has 50-60 years of life left.  ;)

Money is definitely at the top of the list around here. I think that tends to be on most people's mind. ;)
Move'n on.

Offline Dobie

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2016, 06:33:38 PM »
........
Money is definitely at the top of the list around here. I think that tends to be on most people's mind. ;)


I'm not sure if I gave off that impression but here's some examples to show what we're doing.


People can judge for themselves if we're treating the woods right or not.


Mature cherry ready for harvest.




Getting rid of the clumpy maple in the middle to let the cherry in front grow.





Getting rid of the soft maple with the clump top to let the better maple on the right grow.




Soft maple with crooked tops that will never turn into high quality trees.



Mature good quality maple ready to be harvested.




Nice maple being marked so the other maples around have more room to grow.


24" cherry that has reached it's maximum potential.





cull tree


Crooked maple



good quality maple being taken for spacing




Almost all black birch taken.  Low dollar tree




poor quality mature maple



Hard to see the blue mark on the middle tree but you get the idea of what we were taking and what we were leaving.




Nice but multi stemmed cheery.  Left side was starting to develop rot.



Clumpy maples being thinned.



Taking the middle soft maple and leaving the cherry on both sides.




Offline WildlandFirefighter912

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2016, 07:05:21 PM »
Well, in our pine platations we thin out the undesirable pines...ones with cankers, bows, crooks, etc. Leave the best for saw timber, piling, and poles.

So you can do the same with your hardwoods.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2016, 05:25:06 AM »
Folks in my area Dobie, not directed at you. All you have to do is go for a drive.  I've thinned my ground as a first step to space the trees as it has been clear cut and fill planted after. The next steps is to thin the lesser quality over time. The forest is young so I have a long time. I have been pruning some trees for clear logs as the mood hits. These will not be sold as the mills don't offer any premium on clear wood in these parts.  I'm also concentrating on promoting hard maple, birch, ash. When the borer arrives that may be the end for them, maybe not if I'm diversified enough. Wishful thinking.  ;D
Move'n on.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2016, 06:06:50 AM »
With the talk of a slump in the cherry market, are you considering holding the sale off the market until conditions improve?  I don't agree that all black birch is a low dollar tree.  We sold 8/4 to a butcher block counter top company as well as grade 4/4 birch.  Its worth more than the hemlock that is being left.  Its all in the marketing.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Dobie

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2016, 07:37:14 AM »
With the talk of a slump in the cherry market, are you considering holding the sale off the market until conditions improve?  I don't agree that all black birch is a low dollar tree.  We sold 8/4 to a butcher block counter top company as well as grade 4/4 birch.  Its worth more than the hemlock that is being left.  Its all in the marketing.



We already had our sale several weeks ago and we were extremely pleased with the results.   6 of the 8 bids were above our estimate and the final high bid was 30% higher than our projection.   



We only marked 49 cherry trees for this sale since the cherry market is down but from what I understand, high grade cherry is still doing good.  #1's on down are in the dumps.  We have a 25-30 acre stand of younger pole cherry on the northern section we'd really like to thin out but it's lower grade so we left it alone.


As for black birch, selling on the stump up here doesn't bring very much so we're taking all the birch we can to keep them from reseeding after this first cut and give better spacing to more desirable species.  The one thing about selling standing timber is you never know the value bidders placed on each species so it's pretty much guesswork. 

Offline enigmaT120

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2016, 05:16:30 PM »
Up our way we have lots of trees but a lot of people don't let them mature anymore. 80 years was suppose to be the rotation age. Well that hasn't been followed for nearly 20 years once the mature timber got more scarce.

That's how most of the industrial timberlands around here are being managed.  Douglas fir, and it gets clearcut after about 40 - 45 years.  Most of the mills aren't set up for trees bigger than 40" diameter anyway, and they like smaller trees fine. 
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Good quality trees or poor quality trees?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2016, 06:06:47 PM »
There's not any native 80 year old trees that our local mills can't saw. They don't grow that fast around here. Takes 60 years to get an 8-9" hard maple when managed. More like 80-90 when not thinned and released. Now a 250 year old dominant tree that wasn't suppressed is another story. There's not much money to split among the players harvesting small low grade wood. Keep the serfs poor I guess. ;D
Move'n on.


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