landowner and logger timber prices

[John Mc]

Why are you calling loggers Evil ?

I believe it was sarcasm?

[Jeff]

 Just in case things change in tone.

[SwampDonkey]

I always figured the woodlot owner was the boss of his ground, just as the logger is of his outfit. Make an agreement that fits both parties or walk away. Around here the majority of woodlot owners these days never leave the road, thus they don't really know what they have for inventory. Very few hire anyone to help them find out. If it's free, that's another story. Mostly, it's loggers around here that hire an inventory. Rarely is there a plan for the woodlot and if so, almost never followed. That's just reality in this region. Every time woodlots have a harvest around the area I grew up, it's a clear cut. You have an 80-100 year wait after that. But many try to make a buck in 30 year wood the size of fence posts. The big question is "How come your wood is so small?" I wonder. ;) A farm just sold this past summer in the area, several hundred acres of farmland. First thing done, is level the woods. It won't be cleared to farm. The cycle continues.

[ehp]

around here if you do it by percentages its 60% for the land owner , some places its 70% .

[ga jones]

E&S plans,permitting,licensing fees, swamp mats,silt fence, stone access points,water bars maintained daily, road bonds, heavy highway road use tax,...🙄

[woodman1876]

landowners have a hard time making money on their timber? i suppose the evil logger is rolling in money, what with all the free equipment and fuel and insurance and what not.

The price will be what ever the market will bear. The logger has to make money and I'm sure wants to a raise like everyone else. I'm sure the equipment and fuel and insurance go up every year. The logger has to raise their rates to pay for everything. If everything cost wise goes up and timber prices stay the same id think the landowner would have to take less right? Its got to get harder to make money?

[enigmaT120]

Do most of you on the forum use percentages?  My loggers told me what they charged per hour for them and the machinery, and whether I make money or not depends on how much the trees are worth at the mill.  Hauling will vary a bunch depending on where the logs go, it was $220/load to go from my place to Willamina.  The loggers also spent a bunch of time widening the turn off my bridge so that the log truck could get out, so I lost money on that little sale.  I knew I would, the only reason I did it is my wife wanted the trees gone so we would have more sunlight at the house.  The rest of my place won't be ready for a commercial thinning for a few more years. 

If log prices fall I'll let the trees grow.  Douglas-Fir lives several hundred years. 

[landscraper]

The landowners feel they don't make enough.  The loggers don't feel they make enough.  Uncle Sam doesn't feel like he makes enough.  Logs grow slow, log money spends fast.  It's absurdly dangerous and difficult work logging, and if you make it safer and easier you do so by financing absurdly expensive machines.  The timber owner has to hold his breath and pay taxes on his land for years to finally cut logs, and it's almost always less $ than he expected.  The only people I know who really think they make a lot of money having their logs cut are people who inherited land.  That's called a windfall.  I don't know anyone who thinks they make a lot of money cutting logs.  I'm sure there is someone out there ;D

[ga jones]

Percentage is the majority here. There are a lot of costs associated with sale. If your logging for 70/30 absorbing costs like putting in skid roads, landings, surveying,management plans bonds permits. Your struggling to make anything. IMO.....if the mill or forester is absorbing it then it's another story...the moral of the story is there are way to many variables to say who's making money and who isn't.

[Autocar]

Here in my area timber is paid for up front before a tree is ever cut. And bidding with alot of different companys you have to be on your toes. Bids can come in just a few dollars apart or thousands of dollars apart. No body said it was easy thats why they call it logging  ;). With the bidding prosess the landowner can see the range of bids and when he picks a logger he should be happy  :D.

[finding the trail]

  The mills have a strangle hold on most of the timber here.  They have such a dominate position that they wiped out the logging capacity. The system is broke.

[Corley5]

I pay on a percentage but it's not straight across the board.  Grade logs, veneer, flooring bolts, pallet bolts, basswood pulp, aspen pulp, hardwood pulp all have their own %.  I pay by the cord for processed firewood.

[Jeff]

PLEASE QUIT USING THOSE PHONE EMOJIES! THEY DO NOT WORK ON THE FORESTRY FORUM!

[Plankton]

I pay on a percentage but it's not straight across the board.  Grade logs, veneer, flooring bolts, pallet bolts, basswood pulp, aspen pulp, hardwood pulp all have their own %.  I pay by the cord for processed firewood.

I do it this way as well, changing my percentages depending on skid length and size of timber.

[ga jones]

I see the emojis

[treeslayer2003]

landowners have a hard time making money on their timber? i suppose the evil logger is rolling in money, what with all the free equipment and fuel and insurance and what not.

The price will be what ever the market will bear. The logger has to make money and I'm sure wants to a raise like everyone else. I'm sure the equipment and fuel and insurance go up every year. The logger has to raise their rates to pay for everything. If everything cost wise goes up and timber prices stay the same id think the landowner would have to take less right? Its got to get harder to make money?

your not understanding.......let me put it a different way, if the price goes down BOTH the logger and landowner make less. price goes up they both make more. this is on % and imo the only fair way. if come and look at your timber but you want all your money up front, do not think i will price it with a cushion slightly less than i think it will bring? it wouldn't take long for me to go out of business if i priced slightly over many times.
but this is all a moot point, no one can give you a price per tree, every log and every tree may be a different price unless its pine or pulp. meaning there is no guaranteed price and no one has x ray vision to see inside a tree. the very best way to find out what its worth is to invite several well known loggers to come and give an estimate. the honest guys will all be within 10% of each other. if your timber is mature or diseased, its time to harvest. if its a healthy growing stand, you have time. 

[treeslayer2003]

Just in case things change in tone.

sorry Jeff. just rang like things i have herd before from folks that didn't know what they were talking about. i will remain civil or silent.

[David-L]

So many variables depending on each individual job which have all been mentioned. I find in my business once we agree on the stumpage price and the other incidentals and we have a written document explaining it very thorough I always offer the scale slips from the mill so they the landowner can see how much and what has arrived at the mill and that reflects there payment. I never show them the money end as we have agreed already on the stumpage. These scale slips seem to help the landowner gain trust in the harvester. I am not a fan of lump sum pmt's as the landowner always thinks the logger is makin out as well as the forester once the trucks and loads start moving. Just my opinion with respect to you landowners and foresters out there. I have a couple of years work ahead with repeats that I have to fit in between, works for me in my neck of the woods.

[woodman1876]

With the percentage spilt if just seems to me that it would be more and more difficult to make it as a logger. I saw on a graph of timber prices I looked up cherry   1992 average 400 and in 2013 average 380. (approx. just looking at the chart) It had to been cheaper to operate in the early 90's compared to now? I know there's crews that have to give the landowner less  percentage wise now than before so they could make a profit. I know every job would be different. Seems like a hard pill to swallow if your getting paid less than you were twenty years ago weather its timber, cows or widgets. Do you pass up on a lot of jobs now that wouldn't make sense for you to cut money wise where it would in the early 2000's when timber was high? Is the a lot of land owners willing to take a lower than normal amount to get you to log their property  if they really want it done?

[treeslayer2003]

you keep talking about prices being low but i submit to you they are not. to start with you cannot say all cherry pays x per thousand, that is not true. there will be at least 6 grades besides sawlog. i would say the average price for all hardwood is good. you cannot go by some chart you found online.

[Jhenderson]

I'm going to say Treeslayer hasn't been in bisiness for 30 or more years. When figuring for inflation log prices on average are lower now than in the last 25+ years. As for percentage purchases, it's not usually done around here. Walk the job, mark the wood, make an offer. Sometimes 1/2 up front, 1/2 when the job is 1/2 done. Sometimes it's all up front, but it's lump sum.

[thecfarm]

I don't get no money until they start hauling the wood. I had a logger here cutting for a few weeks. Yes,he was doing a thinning,the wood was being stacked,but no wood was being trucked. I've had him here 2 other times,he told me what was going to happen. The forwarder was busy on the last job. Just like when he was done cutting,but the forwarder was still here a few weeks after he was gone. I get paid weekly,by whatever wood was trucked. The guy that cuts for me will not bid on wood. He use to do ALOT of lots for the paper company. They started to require bids and he was not going to do it. Now he just cuts for private land owners.

[ga jones]

I know some guys lost everything they had buying timber up front when the market plummeted. High value Appalachian hard wood has risen steadily with the exception of the bubble crash, since 1989 has it not? I have seen scale tickets from previous jobs that  the land owners kept. And what I saw looked like it's going up.maybe not with inflation.I know soft wood and low grade hard wood hasn't moved much.....at least not here.. Post some numbers. I'm sure someone here has some hard numbers for 25 years ago. Apples for apples .

[lynde37avery]

Markets change everything. I like to pay as I go. It works out better. But sometimes lump sum for the job is mandatory.

[Jeff]

I see the emojis

Only people using certain phones can see them. On here it is a grey box that says gif in it. Annoying as heck.