Need help with older style fuse box in a 1950s home

[Ox]

My mother lives in a ranch style house made in the 50s.  It has a fuse box with 4, 15 amp "cat's eye" fuses (the round, screw in type) and two large black squares above that with pull handles on them.  I'm assuming these are the "main" fuses?  What are these called?

My main question is this:  When I want to run a generator in a power outage, I flip the main breaker on the power pole in my yard, isolating myself from the grid, then backfeed through my welder plug in the shop, which is connected to my house therefore energizing all circuits.  The 240V is split up to each side of the breaker box, giving me 120 and 240.  The house doesn't know anything had changed.  If I pull those two black blocks out of Ma's fuse box, isolating her from the grid, and backfeed with a generator through her 240V dryer plug, will it work the same as at my house?  Will the 240V backfeed be split up to each leg so she'd have 120 and 240 and her house wouldn't know the difference?

The Reason:  I can't go and check for myself because my stepfather *WILL NOT* allow me to help my mother get setup for a power outage.  It got to the point last time that I almost lost my $&!) and lashed out irrationally.  He has Napoleon Sydrome and an inferiority complex.  He is absolutely incapable of doing this stuff himself, yet won't let someone who knows a little something take care of things (does this sound slightly insane to anyone else?!?).  The reason I need to ask is I've never messed around with these older fuse boxes, although I'm familiar with them and have seen them before and changed fuses in them.  I remember an old camp my uncle had that had pennies, I think, in there in place of fuses.  It's a wonder it never burned down.

[sawguy21]

To do it safely and legally you need some type of switch that cannot allow the utility and standby power to feed the system at the same time. A simple knife switch will accomplish this. If somebody forgets to flip off that main breaker with the welder running anyone working on the supposedly dead line could get a very nasty surprise and things will get quite unpleasant if the utility power comes back on with the welder running. The welder won't like it and there will be a real risk of fire.
The best plan would be a manual transfer switch with it's own receptacle for the welder. Talk to a licensed electrician.

[WV Sawmiller]

Ox,

   I'm no electrician and sounds like you are way ahead of me on that. Only thing I might add is I think the black fuses you are talking about are called cartridge fuses if you need to look for more.

   When I was a teenager my brother and I were putting up a chain link fence (family business with slave labor - us) and kids in the house across the road from us came out running "Fire, Fire". We dropped everything and ran over but by the time we got there the lady had thrown a pan of water on the wall outlet that was on fire. The fire department arrived soon and gave them a ticket. Lady (daughter of our customer) came over complaining "They said the fire was caused because we put a penny behind the fuse. That is the same thing they said about that other little house we used to live in. You know, the one that burned down." Guess some people never learn.

[WH_Conley]

What Sawguy21  said. However if those black boxes are pulled you are off grid.

[sandsawmill14]

if you get caught doing that here your in alot of trouble with out a manual transfer switch or at least pulling the meter but there was a lineman got hurt real bad several years ago because of a gen back feeding into grid your little 240v genny will put whatever voltage is on the high line if it is fed backward. i dont know what that is up there but here it is 7200v/14400v and when back fed through the transformer your gen will produce tha voltage but no amps but if the power is out or line down (as was the case im talking about) with no load it has full voltage and is a major arc flash burn / shock hazard so be sure its done safely how ever you decide   some plaes will allow you to pull the meter as the disconnect which works fine but most have stopped that since they went to the digital meter that they can read from the office

[47sawdust]

I agree with the previous post.By doing something electrically sketchy you are putting your Mom at risk as well as any utility people.Sounds like a bad situation that will only get worse especially given the personalities involved.

[21incher]

Never expect someone that is not familiar with electrical circuits to folow instructions for something like that. Have a transfer switch installed that is fool proof. 

[Ox]

Thanks for the replies and thoughts, guys. 
Cartridge fuses.  That's the words I couldn't get out.
It's ironic talking about backfeeding the grid with a generator.  I made this mistake once.  ONCE.  I simply forgot to flip off the main on my power pole so that I was disconnected from the grid.  When I threw the switch in my shop to start backfeeding to my house I momentarily tried to power up the entire grid which was down.  Notice I said momentarily.  It killed my generator *instantly*.  I realized what happened as soon as my engine died as if it had seized up.  I don't understand how anyone can backfeed the entire grid like that.  All the different houses on this same line all waiting for power and when my little 5K generator tried to feed them it just quit running faster than all get out.  So when they say to be careful not to feed the grid with a generator I don't understand how they can!

Does anyone know if when I pull the cartridge fuses the fuse box will act like a modern breaker box when I flip off the main breaker at the top when backfeeding with a generator?  Will both sides (or legs) be fed?  I'm kind of assuming so, since 240V needs two hot legs, each at 120V.  It stands to reason when you backfeed 240V it'll reverse back into two legs of 120V.

Concerning pulling the meter:  I used to do this years ago to disconnect from the grid.  NYSEG (New York State Electric and Gas) locked me out and shut off my power.  For 28 days.  That's right, 28 days.  Claimed I was meter tampering.  Of course, I wasn't and I explained this to them.  It didn't matter.  I was forced to run my home built Lister generator for that whole time.  Had to hire a licensed electrician to change my old meter over to an "updated" one and install a "main breaker box".  If I'da known then what I know now they'da had a lawsuit.  Two small children in the house and all, middle of winter.  I'm totally different now than I was then.  Then I was "too nice" and kept my mouth shut.  Today - kinda the opposite.  It ended up costing me $1100 to get "updated" with the right stuff and to pay the thieving electrician just to have power for Christmas morning.

I'm just basically trying to learn about the older technology at this point.  I have no intention of messing around down there with that little Napoleon breathing down my butt (I'm tall and big and he's short and small) to hook up a generator option for them.  I told Ma if there's an outage and she's uncomfortable, call me and I'd come get her and bring her up here.  He can stay there and "take care of things" like I was told last time.

[OntarioAl]

Ox
Good plan go and get your Mom. Avoid messing with older electrical systems and peoples egos,
Al

[Hilltop366]

Ok so you can't run the entire neighbourhood with your generator, but what if the line was broke or line fuse tripped before the rest of the neighbourhood? I would think you could power up a few hundred feet of unloaded line.

I would not mind spending a few hundred to do it right and eliminate the risk of killing someone!

Another safe option is to get some properly sized extension chords.

[GAB]

Never expect someone that is not familiar with electrical circuits to folow instructions for something like that. Have a transfer switch installed that is fool proof. 

"fool proof"
Very key words
Gerald

[limbwood]

When you shut off breaker you are only unhooking the positive side not the neutral side so it still can backfeed into main line, they want you to use a disconect box to unhook all wires. pulling those fuses would do the same as turning off breaker.

[Autocar]

It sounds to me your looking at a 100 amp. fuse box. The main is on the left side and your range/ dryer is on the right. Thing to remember the range side is hooked on the main buss so back feed will happen if you don't have a main disconnect at the meter base.

[sandhills]

Electricity, short of heights, is the one thing that bothers me the most.  My dad always says "you can't see it, smell it, or hear it coming", I know around here if you get caught back feeding into the grid, even if no one is hurt or killed you'll be less a generator, they make it hot and fry it, can't say I blame them (I'm pretty sure they can press charges too).  I know enough about it I could probably ruff in the wiring for a house or building, that's pretty much where my limited knowledge ends, I do believe I'd take the advice above.

[Autocar]

From my understanding power plants can only generate 13,008 volts Y then they take step up transformers and step it up to any voltage they want for there transmission lines 69 thousand and 138 / 245 / 345 / 765 thousand and a million volts. On rainny days we would back feed 240 volts into a Y trasformer a Y system needs a neautrl wire/ ground to operate and it would back feed 7,200 volts and with out a grounded system the tank would get hot and a blue arc would start across the cement floor till it found a crack then would go to ground. Made a electric chair one time with a coil of coper wire on a wooden chair set the blue arc would go down the legs of the chair and would go across the floor till it found a crack with moisture. Thirty years being a electrical lineman Ive seen my share of fire balls I must admitt there pretty cool !

[WV Sawmiller]

   A few years ago during the hurricanes that hit Florida I understand an out of state lineman was working to help restore power and someone in the community had incorrectly hooked up a small genset and backfed current through a transformer and it killed the lineman. Until I heard that I guess I always thought a transformer was a step down only and never thought about the fact it works in reverse to increase voltage going the other way. Many power company employees hate the small gensets installed by homeowners because of this.

   I have a whole house genset with an ATS but it has built in safety features such that it cannot backfeed power up the line.

[Ox]

In a power outage and Ma's unhappy or tired of dealing with it, she'll come up here to my place.  This is the simplest and easiest considering everything.  The little stepfather's ego is harder for me to handle than hooking up a backup generator.  Thanks for all your inputs.

[Holmes]

 The 2 black cartridges, one is usually for the main the second one was usually for the stove.  The should have different amp ratings.  That is the way it was at my folks camp with a 60 amp panel and screw in fuses.

[r.man]

 I have never seen a main in my area that couldn't be turned off by an external means similar to either a big rocker switch or a big toggle switch. A hinged door is then opened to access the fuses. What you are describing sounds like a small fuse panel with two larger pull outs, one for a stove and another for a dryer etc. It would be possible to wire one of those pull outs to act as a main but I don't think that has ever been legal in my jurisdiction, not sure about yours. Easy enough to check, with the grid power on turn on lights and try pulling each of the larger pull outs. If everything goes off when you pull one out you have found your main.

[Fundyheather]

same as he said.  There must be a big rocker switch somewhere, or don't even think about this.  You are planning to disconnect her hot water tank at the moment.  The rocker switch you are looking for has a big cartrige, I'm thinking 6" long and thick through as...

It's big enough the early style grow-ops could break into the meter outside and that 100 amp cartrige would match into the slots.
     

[Ox]

If I was "allowed" to check things out it wouldn't be hard for me.  A simple multi-meter would tell me everything I need to know.  The little man with big problems (my long time stepfather, who isn't letting me continue on) is the reason I'm asking these questions.  At this point it's for my own personal knowledge.  It's something I would like to learn.  Breaker boxes are easy for me because it's what I'm used to.  These older fuse boxes aren't familiar to me.  I remember seeing one of the two large black cartridges labeled "range".  I'm assuming this is for the non existent electric cook stove.  It's now natural gas.  The water heater and furnace are also natural gas.

This all being said, there may be, and should be, a main switch or breaker for the main feed somewhere, whether it's on the side of the house or on the pole.  I didn't get that far.  I had to leave before something bad happened to the "man" in question.  >:(

I simply can't understand a person who won't let someone help, who knows a thing or two and can figure things out.  He has no clue, no plan, no nothing.  Never even thought about running through a power outage scenario to test anything out.  This is borderline insane, no?  Frustration factor of about a 9.9.  At factor 10 I'd probably be sitting in jail right now.  He doesn't even understand how close I was to losing my stuff.  After all, this is the "man" who's supposed to be taking care of my mother, right?  And when he isn't and I try to take care of her, he stands right in my way hollering "I'll take care of it!" but doesn't and can't.  Oh my, my my.  :

Sorry to vent to you guys, but I'm grateful for a place to be able to do so.

[Kbeitz]

A little off topic but I do electrical work on the side.
I just changed out an old circuit breaker box.
The name of the company that made it is ( The circuit Breaker Box)
It's gotta be one of the first of the first ever made.
Very confusing. Each breaker had hookup wires on both sides of each breaker.
Any breaker could be used for 220 or 110 volts.
So when putting in the new box it was very hard to know if the wire going
into the home was being used as 220 or 110.
It's so different that I kept the box for an antique.
It's impossible to google because typing in ( The circuit Breaker Box)
brings in 14,000 hits. In all my life I've never see anything like this.


I did fine this just now.



 

[low_48]

Ox, Since you don't know the components or workings of his fuse box, and your asking for advice on a forestry group, I'd say the Father-in-law is just being cautious. I wouldn't let you start working on my house either!

[Holmes]

The one in my folks camp 1959 ish . The pull out fuse next to the range fuse is the MAIN fuse for the house and was 60 amp and a 60 amp fuse box.

[r.man]

Holmes I expect that was an adapted setup, maybe not strictly illegal then but rarely done. I have seen the same done with a small breaker panel with no built in main breaker. Instead of putting the main wires onto the lugs provided you backfeed a largish breaker at one end of the panel.

[easymoney]

in the early 50s those boxes was what was used for most country homes. the fuse on the left was a 60 amp and  was the only main fuse in the system no other disconnect, the one on the right was marked range and was i believe a 30 amp or 40 amp. the screw in fuses could be either a 15-20-or 30 amp as either would screw in the socket' later they put in adapters to keep you from putting in a larger fuse than the adapter would take. there was no arrangements for either a water heater or dryer as few homes had either. this was before circuit breakers and all of the wall plugs had only two wires. no third wire safety ground. that house was probably built and wired in the 50s or earlier.

[beenthere]

OX
Sounds like what you have is a typical 60 service box.

Check this video out to see if it is similar, and if so has a good explanation of the component parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEVrXaVl_KU

[Ox]

beenthere - that is exactly what that box looked like in Ma's house.  Thanks for that video - it's exactly the information I was searching for, if only for my own learning.  Stupid me, it didn't even occur to me to try YouTube even though I go there all the time gleaning knowledge.  Thank you!

low_48 - Please re-read my earlier postings about successfully running my own off-grid electrical generating system.  I built the generator from scratch using a Lister/Petter STZ-1 diesel engine direct driven through a chain coupler to a 5kw ST alternator head 4 pole generator (which needs half the RPM to generate 240V as the standard box store generators, increasing the longevity 4 times [double the speed, 4 times the wear, halve the speed and gain 4 times longevity])  and provided my family with power for almost a month straight, 24 hours a day running.  I know what I'm doing with breaker box type distribution panels.  I've completely rewired my whole shop with 240 and 120 in the ceiling and walls.  I've installed my own double wide mobile home and did the main feed myself and it was inspected and passed by the county code enforcement officer.  I've helped people wire their houses and shops.  I know a little about a little.  I was simply asking the friendly guys on this forum what they knew about the older style fuse boxes.  These guys are the smartest I've ever met (albeit online), who have walked all types of shoes and come from all walks of life, and I was confident that at least one of them would know and share the knowledge I was searching for.  I wasn't let down.  I love this place and the men who share their knowledge and experience.  Once again - if I was allowed to do my deductive reasoning type testing with some simple electrical measuring tools I would have figured it out easily.  I found your post a little snarky and unnecessary.  Your post was not helpful in any way.  The others were.

Again, thanks to all for all the suggestions and thoughts.  I finally have the info I was looking for, even though I won't be able to do anything with it.  I'll file it away in my brain for future reference and hopefully it sticks!  I thoroughly enjoy learning new things, especially if it helps me become even more self sufficient.

[low_48]

Sorry I offended you Ox, but never heard of anyone with all your electrical experience and knowledge call Bussman cartridge fuses as "two large black squares above that with pull handles on them". I guess I just made a judgement based on that description. You have to admit, at least I didn't suggest you could kill a lineman like some others did! ;)

[Ox]

Thanks for your reply, low_48.  I appreciate it.  I can totally understand how my lack of the proper words, which I so desperately wanted to use, would cause someone to think I was lacking in much, if any, knowledge.  In this case when I couldn't find the right words in my sometimes lacking brain I resorted to the ultimate in simplicity and pretended I was trying to describe the cartridge fuses to a person who's never seen them before in hopes this would get my point across.  It seems it worked!  Have a good one - Ox

Again, thanks to all.  I've learned something new and I absolutely love it.  I've successfully committed this new found knowledge to memory.

[r.man]

I have learned a bit about older stuff myself, I have never seen a fuse box that looks like the one in the video. I was picturing a block of screw in fuses two by two with the two stove blocks above each other. I expect that the style pictured has never been legal in Ontario since I have never seen one and I have seen lots of older small fuse panels with the same number of fuses, just not in that configuration. Glad to have participated in a successful search for information.

[pineywoods]

I didn't catch it from the verbal description, but the pic rang a bell. The old farmhouse on wife's old homeplace was wired for electric in 1942. It had a box exactly like the pic. I suspect the box was provided by a local co-op through the REA. The house was torn down in 1961 and a new one built on the site. I did the wiring. The family insisted I use the old electrical service. I flatly refused and installed a 200 amp 220V breaker panel.

[Ox]

That same box is what I remember in the old family cabin/camp up in the Adirondacks, up an old sand road (used to be sand anyway) called Number Four, a little distance from Lowville.  Named Number Four Rd. because the old Number Four firetower was on that road.  I remember as a youngster climbing all the way up that thing with the folks and the ranger allowed us up through the trap door to look around.  You could see for miles in all directions.

The old fuse box in that old camp had pennies in behind every one of those cat's eye fuses. 
It's a wonder we didn't burn up in the night, but my uncle ended up selling it and the old camp survived to be torn down eventually.

I also remember an old black and white TV that took several minutes to warm up until the picture showed up.  We had to fetch water from down the road from a pipe on the side of the road and used an outhouse.  There was a chamber pot to use at night if needed because of the reality of bears lurking around at night.  Took what was called "spit baths" out of a large washpan set up outside because there was no bathroom or drains in the floor of the cabin.  The skeeters would look like freckles on your naked body while ma tried her best to keep them washed off.  I haven't been to that camp since I was about 8 or so.  Whew.  It's been 30 years already.

[Hilltop366]

I have only seen two different ways to safely run a generator on a electrical panel, one is the transfer switch on the feed and the other is a transfer switch on a sub-panel that is normally fed from the main panel. The sub panel has all the circuits that you would want to run on the generator.

Another low cost option I used to run my wood boiler in a power interruption....

 

We have only lost power once here long enough that I wanted to power up my wood boiler so I pulled the wire from the panel and installed a plug on it and powered it with an inverter, after the power was back on I had the idea to put a single receptacle along side the panel powered from the wood boiler breaker and plug the wire for the boiler into it. I asked an electrician if it was a good idea or not he said he had never see it before but it is 100% safe.  So for about $8 it is ready to go, of coarse we haven't lost power long enough to bother since.

[Ox]

That's perfect!  Good idea using an inverter for the basics, like heat.  We must always remember to just use common sense with electricity.  Simply turning off the main breaker to disconnect from the grid and backfeeding from the generator to an outlet will suffice in a power outage situation.  And it's safe.  Transfer switches are easy to use and "foolproof" but an unnecessary cost in my eyes (some local codes may require a transfer switch, I'm assuming, but it's asinine).  Just for the illusion of safety and the convenience of throwing one switch instead of flipping one breaker and plugging in one cord.  I'll keep those hundreds of dollars right in my pocket!  :D

[Kbeitz]

This is the transfer switch I put in my home.



 

And my Gen-set



 

[jwilly3879]

I installed a lockout on our panel. The breaker from the generator cannot be turned on until the main breaker is in the off postion. It is 100% foolproof and legal.

I'm not sure where I got it but if anyone is interested I see if I can find the info.

[Ox]

Kbeitz, I like the way your mind works and your ideas.  That looks like an older 8 or 10 B&S engine, mated to what I assume to be a 2 pole generator head at 3600 rpm?  I like that collapsible box.

jwilly, that sounds like a good system for absolute accuracy in isolating from the main grid and powering up your home so no mistakes are made.

[gww]

I have two transfer switches in my home.  One cost $400 something and was prewired from northern tool Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company.  The other is home made and is nothing more then two 50 amp 240 volt breakers.  I bent a welding rod into a shape that I could attach it to the two breakers where it would only allow one of the breakers to be on at a time.  Cheep and full proof.  Both breakers can be off but only one can be turned on at a time.  either the grid or the generator is on but can't both be on.
Cheers
gww

Ps I was not advertising for northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company.  I felt stupid for spending this amount after figuring out how simple it was to make my own.

[r.man]

I see that some companies have an interlock kit available for some breaker panels. Locks out the generator feed in breaker unless the main is turned off. You would have to check the legality of the kit in any particular area but it would be an extremely cheap alternative to all other legal methods.