New Experiment

[bkaimwood]

 

The trick is sawing the logs before the flathead borers and long horn beetles riddle the pine with pencil sized holes  :).

smiley_thumbsup



YH With high end $$ up here, Lumber has to have [Figure] in it.  :D :D Every one has ¼sawn wood. All most can't give it away. :D :D :D and no one want's blue stain pine. :D

Well, maybe Bruno. :D :D  smiley_wavy Hi Bruno. :D :D

Funny... same here...clear pine butt logs are exciting to see and saw into....then I remember that none of my customers want it, and that the blue stained knotty stuff brings what clear stuff SHOULD...but doesn't...so I flat stack it and tarp it for awhile, and it increases value and marketability on its own, free of charge!!!😁

[WV Sawmiller]

YH,

   Good on you for thinking blue wood. Now when you perfect the blue and orange you can corner the real market in Alabama. A big War Eagle to you. Keep up the good work.

[WDH]

Lets leave the orange out  . 

[4x4American]

I have left some pine dead stacked for too long and got the black, and I was told to just set it out in the sun and it would kill the black, whatever it is. 


To make blue stain pine, you're sposta beat the logs with new blue jeans.  If you have any yoots around, they are perfect for the job.

[YellowHammer]

YH,

   Good on you for thinking blue wood. Now when you perfect the blue and orange you can corner the real market in Alabama. A big War Eagle to you. Keep up the good work.

I read that to Mrs. Yellowhammer, and her expression was priceless!

I reckon if I wait until Fall, the logs will be Crimson and we'll have 17 of them.  8)

[WmFritz]

I'm partial to 'Maize and Blue' myself. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   My last off site sawing was a bunch of white pine that had been down over a year. About every 2-3 feet I'd find a big Crimson and White spot as I sawed through a new sawyer worm. I'd bet that is what yours will look like. We cut that session short.

[YellowHammer]

Well, I got that first load out of the kiln and planed this weekend. 
Remember these from my first post?


 



  

 

First pass on the planer


  

 

 

 

 

 



I sold several this weekend for $5 per Bdft even three to one customer.

I still have several logs laying in the summer sun, and another buried under a mound of sawdust, and am excited to see how they turn out. 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

One word of caution.  The blue stain is caused by a fungus and even after drying, there are fungal spores in the wood that some people, especially older people, smokers and others with breathing difficulties possibly will have allergic reactions too.  I am sure that you have heard about schools, senior living facilities and other buildings that have been found with such spores and the cost to clean the buildings was huge.  In Illinois, a senior facility using blue stained or sap stained construction timbers was rejected by building experts and cost millions to correct.  We also know that sanding dust from such infected wood is a bigger risk that uninflected wood.  The risk from one piece of spalted or stained wood is close to zero, but when a room uses the wood for paneling, it would seem the risk to an occupant is much higher.

So, if. Someone uses your stained wood and then develops breathing problems, what will be your liability risk?  Hiring a lawyer will be expensive, even if you win in court.  This could really hurt the smaller producer, as small people tend not to have liability insurance.  There are past court cases with these fungi.  And perhaps there are some lawyers just waiting for a case, just like we see with exposure to asbestos.

So when we sell this wood, do we have a responsibility to inform the purchaser of the risks?

[4x4American]

Wow, that stuff came out great, YH!



Good thoughts, Gene...maybe have to have them sign a waiver the legal responsibility?  Seems ridiculous, but welcome to the new sue-happy America..

[WDH]

So, sterilizing the wood at 150 degrees for 24 hours does not kill the spores"?

[Bruno of NH]

What about sealing the wood or treating with mold killer ?

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

You need to kill both the fungi and its spores.  Spores resist many conventional killers. 

Sealing might work if you can seal 100% of the surface and if the sealer remains intact (no holes drilled or planing, sanding, etc.) both now and in years to come.  Not sure if there is such a sealer opportunity.  Plus the sealer must seal both fungi and spores.

[YellowHammer]

I have consulted with my insurance company and are contacting my lawyers for their opinion.  However, at this point there are gaps that I'm trying to fill in.
The discussions of sap stain and it's sometimes common term, "lumberyard" mold is a major manufacturing issue, as it effects the sale of commercial lumber. There is quite of bit of information available, the problem is sorting thought it.

So I have several questions I'm trying to answer.  First, are the molds that are generally regarded as responsible for blue stain (Ceratocystis or Ophistoma) inherently toxic? Do they produce mycotoxins that are hazardous to health?
At this point, I have found that the typical bluestain fungus is considered harmless from a toxicty standpoint.  Also, its important to distinguish between toxicity and allergy.  The strain of mold at the center of many recent lawsuits is known as Stachybotrys atra (S.atra). This is not the mold which causes blue stain wood.
Here are a few excepts to some of the documentation I've found:

"Many industry publications opine that lumberyard mold does not create an indoor air quality issue."
http://hbelc.org/pdf/memdocs/lumberyardmold.pdf

"BLACK MOLD, HARMLESS - CONTENTS: Photographs of harmless cosmetic black mold on indoor surfaces. How to recognize cosmetic or harmless Ceratocystis or Ophistoma "bluestain" mold indoors."
http://inspectapedia.com/mold/Cosmetic_Black_Mold.php

There was also a special tax exemption forwarded to the Colorado general assembly specifically to promote the sale and usage of beetle killed and blue stained wood products.
"(2)  The general assembly further finds that the browning of Colorado's forests is also creating a unique wood product from the salvaged trees. Mountain pine beetles only infest directly under the bark of a pine tree. But a fungus, which the beetle carries with it, spreads throughout the sapwood weakening the tree's defenses and allowing the beetle to lay its eggs. The fungus leaves beetle-killed pines with a blue stain. Despite the residual blue stain, the wood is still useful for the same wood products as uninfested wood. Studies have found that the blue stain has no practical effects on strength properties, gluing characteristics, or adhesion of furniture finishes. In fact, a study found that the blue stain may cause some beneficial changes to product characteristics."
http://tornado.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/sl2008a/sl_332.

There are also discussions concerning other issues:
"NELMA is receiving an increasing number of inquiries from export wood packaging facilities regarding Blue Stain on blue stainlumber and how it affects compliance with IPPC ISPM 15.   The Standard does not recognize Blue Stain within its targeted pest list, nor does it forbid Blue-Stained lumber in wood packaging construction.   However, it has become problematic with countries such as China and particularlyAustralia where pallets, skids, boxes, and crates entering the country have come under question due to its presence in pieces of the lumber.

What is Blue Stain?    Blue stain (Ophiostoma sp.) is a sap stain caused by a fungus that attacks the natural sugars located in the sapwood of softwood lumber species (Pine, Spruce, Fir species).   It is easily identified on the lumber as a discolored bluish, black, or gray area generally of significant size.   The fungus is prevalent just about everywhere in the U.S. and Canada, and is spread through the air and by insects such as bark beetles.   It does not destroy the wood fiber so the strength of lumber is generally not affected.  The key element for growth and survival is temperature and moisture content of the wood. Optimum fungal growth occurs between 70 and 90 degrees F in wood with a moisture content above 22%.   Below 50 degrees F, the fungus is dormant; above 130 degrees F it is killed. It can occur within the log or in lumber when conditions are favorable."
http://www.nelma.org/beware-of-using-blue-stained-wood-in-wood-packaging-materials/

So then the question moves to if Ceratocystis or Ophistoma is generally considered harmless as far as toxicity is concerned, what happens if someone is allergic to it?  The litigation issues I've found seem to stem from cases were blue and black stain fungus was actively growing during the construction process, or as a fault of poor construction practices, which indicated issues with moisture intrusion and subsequent secondary colonization of more harmful molds which were toxic.
 
Also, can a business be held responsible when a customer who is allergic to mold intentionally purchases a product where mold is used as part of the manufacturing process?  This would fall into full disclosure to the customer, and possibly a waiver.  Just this last couple months ago, I received an MSDS from a lumberyard detailing the inhalations hazards of sawdust. 
 
To be continued... 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The answer to your last question might be similar to people with nut allergies.  If they know that nuts are in the product but they still buy it, they are responsible.  So, I think all we have to do is tell the customer that spalting and blue stain are fungi and may cause allergic reactions in some people, especially when the wood gets wet or is sanded.

Regarding the comment that blue stain occurs in softwoods, we also see it in hardwoods, or is the blue stain in hardwoods different?

Regarding the quote that blue stain does not cause strength loss, this is incorrect for heavy blue stain infections.  Microscopic examination shows that the hyphae do create small holes in the cell wall which, with a heavy infection can weaken the wood.  Actual strength tests confirmed this strength loss.

I do know from personal knowledge that visible blue stain in framing lumber was rejected by a building inspector.  Was his concern backed up by scientific evidence?  If the framing was kept dry, would it have been ok?  Does dry mean free from liquid water or can high humidity be an issue?

[barbender]

All I know is that the Potlatch stud mill up here does not like blue stain. They do not want it in their lumber at all.

[YellowHammer]

It's been about 6 weeks now since I bought the last load white pine logs and they appeared to be ready from the outside. 

However, when I bucked them they weren't as bad looking as I'd hoped.  Way too clean.  The blue was still quite shallow in the sapwood.  My other set of logs, which I milled and dead stacked had already turned blue by this time.  So it looks like big pine logs won't blue as fast as mid sized pine milled and dead stacked for the same period of time.


So I'm going to saw these guys up and dead stack a few to blue them, and go ahead and run the others and kiln them, so I can try to test the market on non blue thick pine slabs. 
Either way, I've got to get my throughout up, as I've already sold the initial load, at $6 per Bdft or about $100 per slab.  So at least that part of the experiment is a success, the blue pine slabs sell, and sell easily. 

So I'm also going to dry these new slabs fairly aggressively, does anybody have any suggestions on a maximum moisture removal rate for 2 inch white pine?  I'm thinking it will be fairly high.

Anyway, the experiment continues

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

20% per day or even fAster is often seen at 160 F and hotter

[WDH]

I have found that the further up the stem, the more blue.  The faster the growth, i.e. less heartwood, the more the blue.  The butt logs tend to have the least blue.  If they sit long enough in this heat deadstacked, those slabs are sure to get more ugly, and hence, more valuable. 

I have sawn thousands of BF of the blue pine, but always 4/4 - 6/4.  I have never live-edged slabbed any.  That is because all of the blue that I have sawn have come from about 30 year old loblolly that the annosum root rot and pine beetles have killed, naturally.  When those ambrosia beetles hit those dying pine, they really inoculate the wood with the fungus.  They seem to hit the dying/dead pines more so than fresh green logs laying on the logyard.  I think that the dying standing pines attract the ambrosia beetles more than a felled, green, healthy, live tree.

Robert,

Try to find some standing dying or dead pine where the needles have all turned brown and have started to fall from the tree.  At this stage, the wood is still sound, but the ambrosia beetles have hit them and inoculated them with the fungus.  The flathead borers will have hit them too, and there will be some of the pencil sized holes and tunnels, again, more of these the further up the stem that you go. 

[thecfarm]

I know we come from two diffeant worlds when it comes to weather and bugs.  ;D
This a pile of white pine cutoffs from when I had my land logged.



 

The cutoffs was in the woods for 2-3-4 years before I got a OWB and had no way to get rid of them. I hauled them out and started to split and cut them out for firewood. The wood,as yours was,was nice and clean. Looked like I had just cut it.

[WDH]

No grits and no bugs.  That is too tame  :D. 

[Peter Drouin]

Did the Pine come out ok? YH

[xlogger]

 

  

 
I'm trying not to let that happen to this pine logs I got last week. I got too many for the area where I need to dry them under the fans. I can cut them in a week or two with the other things going on but getting them to dry fast and not molding or getting any blue.
We're suppose to be out of the 90° weather so maybe that will help. Also if you don't get all or leave a little of the sawdust on the boards does that cause more molding?
Danny this are the ones I emailed you about.

I'm not sure why two pictures came up, I'm sure it's me I really bad on computers.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The residual dust does seem to increase staining.

[YellowHammer]

Did the Pine come out ok? YH

Well, I've been learning a lot in the last several weeks.  Most notably, blue sells, and not blue doesn't sell (much).  I've also learned that the smaller logs, with lots of live edge character and limb knots, sell  better than the bigger, wider, slabs of wood.  They also blue much easier.  The bigger logs have more heartwood and therefore a narrower blue band ratio in the sapwood.  Also, as WDH says, the bigger more mature logs just blue slower than the smaller, younger logs. 
I also found out that burying a log in sawdust, in the middle of summer, does not accelerate blue mold, but in fact slows it down.
In the first picture, the leftmost two logs were taken from the same load.

The log on the left has been air aging laying in a pile, and has developed a nice, almost solid blue ring.  The log next to it, second from the left, was the log buried in the sawdust.  It is in very good shape, with very little blue mold. 
Here is what it looked like when I bucked it a couple days ago, disappointing clean.....

Now that the weather is cooling down, I'm curious to see how the rest of logs in the pile blue up.  So the experiment continues.