Chainsaw safety device

[LTA-team]

Hello, I am coming to this forum looking for some input on an engineering project I am working on with my team for my high school engineering class.

The project we are working on would be a device that mounts to your chainsaw and allows you to cut a tree or branch from a distance, to insure safety. The mounting device on the bottom of the saw would be sleek enough where it would not interfere with normal use of the saw.


https://goo.gl/forms/bZOqjBKJRKhGoGDr2

[Kbeitz]

I would want to be at my saw to control it.
You can already buy chainsaws on a stick
but I sure would not want to cut down
a tree with it. Can you tell us more ?

[coppice]

Maybe something like the firefighter vent saws, that expose only the tip of the bar, would work for your project.

For real use, I would far prefer to have my saw up on what I'm cutting, where I can see it, feel it, and control it.

[Chainsaw10]

Chainsaw attached to a drone.  Cut down a tree from 20 miles away with a remote control ;). An RC flying chainsaw with FPV camera FTW!

[Ianab]

The problem I can see is the felling a tree (safely) relies on making several precision cuts, from different directions and angles, that form the right situation for the tree to fall. That's 3 to 5, and occasionally more. Being 10ft away on the end of a stick makes that difficult, and is probably not much safer. In fact if you mis-cut, you loose control of where the tree is going to fall.

About the only practical remote control chainsaw I've seen is this one.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/82469164/Taking-remote-control-of-NZs-forestry-future

But in that case the remote device is a radio controlled 38ton JD Feller Buncher, fitted with cameras in the cab.
https://www.deere.com/en_US/products/equipment/feller_bunchers/tracked_feller_bunchers/909m/909m.page#viewTabs

Probably a bit more elaborate than you are planning. But, don't let that put you off. What sort of operation are you thinking of?

[Kbeitz]

I don't think I want to be running away from a falling tree with
a 10 foot pole...

[HolmenTree]

I have a funny feeling about this LTA-team  original poster :D

[pabst79]

Marketing Department I think... The last sentence doesn't seem to add up? Attach to the bottom and still use the bar as normal, Hmmmm

[btulloh]

I don't think anybody that ever felled a tree could come up with this idea.

[LTA-team]

The problem I can see is the felling a tree (safely) relies on making several precision cuts, from different directions and angles, that form the right situation for the tree to fall. That's 3 to 5, and occasionally more. Being 10ft away on the end of a stick makes that difficult, and is probably not much safer. In fact if you mis-cut, you loose control of where the tree is going to fall.

About the only practical remote control chainsaw I've seen is this one.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/82469164/Taking-remote-control-of-NZs-forestry-future

But in that case the remote device is a radio controlled 38ton JD Feller Buncher, fitted with cameras in the cab.
https://www.deere.com/en_US/products/equipment/feller_bunchers/tracked_feller_bunchers/909m/909m.page#viewTabs

Probably a bit more elaborate than you are planning. But, don't let that put you off. What sort of operation are you thinking of?

This is not an industry grade tool we are designing, this is aimed at the homeowner.

Basically this is to be used on smaller trees you would see in a homeowners property. This product could also be used on larger branches in harder to reach spots. I dont think anyone here on this forum really is understanding what I am saying.

The device will have a mounting device that will fit without interfering with normal use of the saw. It will attach to a clamp that will secure the device to the piece that needs to be cut. You will then be able to use the saw as usual or use the pole to use it from a distance.

This is better than a pole saw because this will not put the strain on your back that a pole saw does.

At the end of the day you have a saw that you can use just as you normally would or if you wanted to cut something that you did not want to be so close to you could simply attach the clamping mechanism and cut it safely from a distance.

[LTA-team]

Marketing Department I think... The last sentence doesn't seem to add up? Attach to the bottom and still use the bar as normal, Hmmmm

You must have missed the part where I said this was for an engineering class, so no, this was not written by a marketing department. Also we only have $200 so I dont think we would have a marketing department at this budget.

[DelawhereJoe]

Are you thinking of some sort of an attachment that would to any chainsaw and make it into something like a jawsaw ? Something that protect the user from the chain.

[LTA-team]

Are you thinking of some sort of an attachment that would to any chainsaw and make it into something like a jawsaw ? Something that protect the user from the chain.

No, It would have a mount on the bottom of the chainsaw that would not interfere with normal use.
If you wanted to use the device then you would attach the clamp to the mount and this would allow you to secure the saw to the tree or branch.

[DelawhereJoe]

Personally I can't see a reason to ever want to attach a saw to a branch or tree. There's way to many things that could go wrong and damage the saw. If you could give a "for instance" that would be most helpful

[Babylon519]

Can you draw us a picture? We like visuals... 

-Jason

[btulloh]

this might be a cure for which there is no known disease.

If someone needs a device like that, they really need to call a professional.  A feller-buncher does this already but it's a little outside a homeowner's budget I tbink.

Good !uck with your project though. I'll be interested to see how it turns out.

[btulloh]

I'm not trying to throw cold water on your project.  Hopefully it will be a successful design.

Don't discount the value of the marketing department though.  They would be the ones to identify a need,  determine the size of the potential market and spec a design to fit the need and the market.  Then engineering would design it, turn it over to manufacturing, and then the sales department could get it out to all the customers.  Success.

[Kbeitz]

I actually tried it when I did not have a pole saw.
It was way to heavy to lift even a small saw up in
a tree to cut off a limb. Then the saw wanted to
come crashing down. A pole saw only has the head
of the saw at the end of the pole and it's still heavy.

[JohnW]

Right Ianab, I'd be more interested in some kind laser device or something to help with making those precision felling cuts, or accurately measuring the height of my tree, and the surrounding trees, and the clearance.  Although, there may not be much of a market.  Most videos of pros felling trees show them making perfect cuts.

[RPowers]

This is not an industry grade tool we are designing, this is aimed at the homeowner.

Basically this is to be used on smaller trees you would see in a homeowners property. This product could also be used on larger branches in harder to reach spots. I dont think anyone here on this forum really is understanding what I am saying.

The device will have a mounting device that will fit without interfering with normal use of the saw. It will attach to a clamp that will secure the device to the piece that needs to be cut. You will then be able to use the saw as usual or use the pole to use it from a distance.

This is better than a pole saw because this will not put the strain on your back that a pole saw does.

At the end of the day you have a saw that you can use just as you normally would or if you wanted to cut something that you did not want to be so close to you could simply attach the clamping mechanism and cut it safely from a distance.

your idea is nice, but it is obvious that you havent spent much time on a chainsaw. Even a smaller "homeowner" sized saw is way too heavy and torque-prone to clamp it to a pole and run the thing at all, much less safely. A small chainsaw has a 14-16" bar, most commercial pole-saws, which are built to do what you are trying to accomplish, have 10-12" bars and are still heavy and fatiguing to operate as another reply mentioned. Also they are being operated in a more vertical manner which eases the strain on the user, I couldn't imagine trying to routinely cut down trees 8-10' away horizontally with a saw on a long pole. Crazy heavy! Advice: go back to the drawing board and work up a more functional idea for the project. A

[HolmenTree]

I was going to say something myself but I didn't want to insult the young kids.

If this LTA-team want any advice from the veterans on here they need to show a little more respect. Plus clearly try to better explain what their trying to design and not leave everyone out of the loop. Sound to me like a junior high school science project at the best :D

All I can understand what they or "he" are saying is a extension saw mounted to the bottom of a regular chainsaw with the saw's business end clamping to a branch.

[snowstorm]

the answer to a question nobody asked

[LTA-team]

This is not an industry grade tool we are designing, this is aimed at the homeowner.

Basically this is to be used on smaller trees you would see in a homeowners property. This product could also be used on larger branches in harder to reach spots. I dont think anyone here on this forum really is understanding what I am saying.

The device will have a mounting device that will fit without interfering with normal use of the saw. It will attach to a clamp that will secure the device to the piece that needs to be cut. You will then be able to use the saw as usual or use the pole to use it from a distance.

This is better than a pole saw because this will not put the strain on your back that a pole saw does.

At the end of the day you have a saw that you can use just as you normally would or if you wanted to cut something that you did not want to be so close to you could simply attach the clamping mechanism and cut it safely from a distance.

your idea is nice, but it is obvious that you havent spent much time on a chainsaw. Even a smaller "homeowner" sized saw is way too heavy and torque-prone to clamp it to a pole and run the thing at all, much less safely. A small chainsaw has a 14-16" bar, most commercial pole-saws, which are built to do what you are trying to accomplish, have 10-12" bars and are still heavy and fatiguing to operate as another reply mentioned. Also they are being operated in a more vertical manner which eases the strain on the user, I couldn't imagine trying to routinely cut down trees 8-10' away horizontally with a saw on a long pole. Crazy heavy! Advice: go back to the drawing board and work up a more functional idea for the project. A

Listen, i believe we did not clarify our idea enough originally. The device would allow the chainsaw to clamp onto the tree, and not require a person to hold it, only a person to move the bar which would push the blade toward the wood. And we would set up the clamping system so that you could make cuts at different angles using this same contraption(saw clamped to tree, user controls the cut without the weight of the saw being put on his or her back.) Hope this helps clarify our idea, as we really want to make this work. Thanks for all the input everyone, and any further input or ideas are greatly appreciated.

[Jeff]

I was going to say something myself but I didn't want to insult the young kids.

If this LTA-team want any advice from the veterans on here they need to show a little more respect. Plus clearly try to better explain what their trying to design and not leave everyone out of the loop. Sound to me like a junior high school science project at the best :D

All I can understand what they or "he" are saying is a extension saw mounted to the bottom of a regular chainsaw with the saw's business end clamping to a branch.

LTA-team, since you decided to report this to moderator, I'm going to address it. I'm a bit more than a moderator for your info. He is completely right. You started out by showing up on my website for what appears to be for more than normal research. You chose to engage the membership that has a combined knowledge that your team can never realize.  If you want input, you need to realize that you are going to get it.  Appreciate it and respect it or look elsewhere. If you were anything other than what you say you are, you would not even be allowed to use the forum for what you want to use it for. Market research, focus groups, that sort of thing in industry is not free, and it aint free here either. Because of your youth, the only price I demand here, is respect for the members that even try to help you out.

[mad murdock]

to the OP, the practical application of such a device is self defeating as a properly sharpened saw will self feed into the wood, and only need a little guidance as it cuts through the wood, which from my experience, (and I have cut down thousands of trees, literally, like many of the highly esteemed members on here), is too hard to safely do from a distance, unless you are strapped to a machine that is heavier than the tree that you are trying to remove, allowing almost complete control of the process from the time you grab the tee, to the time you set it where you want on the ground, which as previously stated, is a machine well outside the range, scope and ability to operate safely by the average homeowner.  Most average home owners do not know enough about a "homeowner" chainsaw to operate it safely, which is a whole "nother" topic entirely.  That said, necessity is the "mother of invention", so if there is a need, maybe you will be able to put a twist on the process that maybe even us "old dogs" can learn something from.  I wish you the best on the project, but seems like a difficult one to solve, on any budget, unless you maybe can incorporate some sort of high power megajewel lazer cutter onto 8) now that would be cool

[Ianab]

Listen, i believe we did not clarify our idea enough originally. The device would allow the chainsaw to clamp onto the tree, and not require a person to hold it, only a person to move the bar which would push the blade toward the wood. And we would set up the clamping system so that you could make cuts at different angles using this same contraption(saw clamped to tree, user controls the cut without the weight of the saw being put on his or her back.) Hope this helps clarify our idea, as we really want to make this work. Thanks for all the input everyone, and any further input or ideas are greatly appreciated.

I do like a good mechanical challenge. But this ones got me stumped (pun intended)

Even assuming you could rig up your saw holder to be able to make the minimum of three different cuts, bearing in mind the 3rd one is usually made from the other side of the tree, or with the saw flipped over you still have two serious problems.

If the weight of the tree isn't in the direction of the fall, or if you have misjudged the lean or branch weight, the tree "sits back" on your bar and chain. and jams it. Now you are stuck, with a 90% cut tree teetering overhead. To prevent this you would insert a felling wedge into the cut behind the saw to prevent the cut closing up, Once the cut is complete, you can then use the wedge to lift the back of the tree and tip it over.  So you NEED the ability to insert a wedge. While not every tree is going to need a wedge, a large enough % do, even if it's only as a precaution.

The other thing is your saw is going to be left sitting on the stump as the tree falls, That's a BIG problem as many trees will bounce or spring back over the stump, even landing on it, then rolling off to the side. Again, not every tree, but it's common enough that you don't stand there while the tree is falling. You grab your saw, and take  4 or 5 large steps to get to a safer spot. I'd put the odds of your device, and the saw, being pancaked at about 5% every time it was used?

Now as far as the actual cutting goes, I'm not sure what experience your team has, so spend a couple of minutes and watch this video. Tim Ard is a professional chainsaw instructor, and knows his stuff. He explains how, and also the why of the methods he uses here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFTOlmCijjs
Now there are variations on the exact method, but that's the general idea of how to (safely) fell a tree. I just can't see any way to fabricate a simple mechanism to do that remotely. And especially one that could be operated by an inexperienced person. Simply strapping a saw on to the stump and cutting is just going to turn to custard so fast it wont be funny, unless you have grabbed the tree with a 40 ton machine first.

[CTYank]

Gotta understand the human-factors involved. Even a small "homeowner" chainsaw is a ferocious, noisy, smelly threatening little beast that specializes in amputations. Operator control, or at least the semblance of control is psychologically important to the user. Then the ambulance-chasers will sniff out and latch onto anything that gives prospect of drawing blood. You still don't know if it will work.

Best to get some runtime on a variety of saws, conventional and polesaws, to build some muscle-memory of what's involved in getting to your goal, so you can focus on the possible. All sorts of Rube Goldberg devices have been devised for the purpose of cutting wood. Only a few remain.

I use polesaws a lot. Every ounce that can be removed from the cutting end is a BIG DEAL, a very big deal. This would of course apply to maneuvering any powered device at the end of a pole. Best get some first-hand experience of what's involved there. Few homeowners are sumo-wrestlers.

[Al_Smith]

The subject did give rise to lively conversation but the general opinion is it's just not practical .If it were no doubt some maker of chainsaw would have already developed it .

I once had what I thought was a brilliant idea .In the days before Mr Coffee and Bun you had to wait 15 minutes for your morning cup to brew .I thought why not an electrical receptacle  on a clock radio,get up your coffee is made so I put one together,worked great .It was about a month later I discovered they already made same .

[pabst79]

LTA, it may seem that we're all being jerks, but I assure you its for good reason. Even a small saw, 12" bar and lightweight can cause life changing or ending damage in a second. I find it hard to believe a High School would be willing to let students operate and design something so dangerous, the only way I can see it to be plausible is if your instructor was well trained and helped with every step of design and use. That being said, if your instructor/teacher was well versed in chainsaw use and safety, there is NO way he/she would have their students trying to build such a contraption. You mentioned small homeowner trees? What's a small tree, 8",12"? If you watch the video that Ianab posted you'll see how critically important it is to be at your saw and have complete control of it. If you mounted a saw to a tree and stood back 8' or 10' doesn't matter, you would not be able to feel if the tree was twisting, leaning back a bit or anything else trees may do. I'm afraid the user may not notice in time if the tree was moving in a dangerous direction and I promise even a small "homeowner" tree will break your neck in a second.

  If you really are a High School student, I think its great your thinking of inventing some type of safety device, everyone on the forum welcomes safety. However, I would think you would be better served to spend your budget on a used saw and safety equipment, then spend some time, under supervision, actually using a saw. That way you and your team would get an idea of what your actually trying to design, maybe the "lightbulb" will go off per-say. Good Luck.

[Jeff]

I would suggest you talk with your instructor and make arrangements to visit the U.S. Forest Products lab in Madison. You are only a short jaunt to there from your town.  There you can speak with people about what you wish to do and get some top notch feedback and information on wood and tree processing.   

[HolmenTree]

Here's some inspiration for the LTA-team.

Here's a chainsaw machine that clamps to a tree and takes all the limbs off.
This machine was originally introduced as a Sachs Tree Monkey over in Europe in 1965.
https://youtu.be/kJVz8N_PJ2E

[teakwood]

Very cool machine.  Seems to have a drill bit to cut the branches ???  How does it come down, just with shutting it off.  We do lots of pruning work in the teak plantations, the most important thing is that the branch is cut of fairly straight and as near as possible at the tree.

[John Mc]

Just want to see if I am understanding this correctly:

If I want to cut a limb from the tree - maybe one that I can't comfortably reach from the ground - I'd use your device to clamp the saw to the tree (in a manner that allows the saw to pivot). I would pivot the saw into the limb by using an extension pole attached to your device. Presumably, this pole would also have some sort of remote trigger for the saw's throttle.

Is that a fair description?

[LTA-team]

Just want to see if I am understanding this correctly:

If I want to cut a limb from the tree - maybe one that I can't comfortably reach from the ground - I'd use your device to clamp the saw to the tree (in a manner that allows the saw to pivot). I would pivot the saw into the limb by using an extension pole attached to your device. Presumably, this pole would also have some sort of remote trigger for the saw's throttle.

Is that a fair description?

Yes, that is a fair description.

[alabama]

I like the idea of having full physical control on the chainsaw. Technology is good but it is also becoming overwhelming. Whatever happened to a good hard days work? There was a time you know that we didn't have drones, robots and things seemed a lot better to me, this is just my opinion though.

[HolmenTree]

Very cool machine.  Seems to have a drill bit to cut the branches ???

Yes looks like this newer version was upgraded to a auger bit.
Here's the 1965 article on the Sachs tree monkey. Its chain is a scratcher tooth pattern.